Home/Visiting Teaching to be discontinued

[Kenngo1969]

On 4/7/2018 at 12:10 AM, rockpond said:

I have not claimed that revelation has “diminished or gone”.  I stated that the church is currently being governed by consensus, rather than revelation, based on what Presidents Nelson and Oaks have taught in the last two general conferences. 

But (to you, to JLHProf, or to anyone else who cares to explain), if revelation has not "diminished or gone" but the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints now is being governed by consensus, what is the relationship (if any) between consensus and revelation?  Doesn't denigrating consensus put the Brethren and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in an impossible position?  

If President Nelson announced a revelation with which no one else in The Fifteen was in accord, would those who now decry consensus shout, "Hooray!  Revelation at last!"  Or, instead, would many of those who now decry consensus accuse him of "going off of the reservation" (my phrase)?  I daresay that many of those who now decry consensus would do exactly that.  What if the alleged "revelation" were even more politically incorrect than purported revelations which have already been received?

Edited April 8, 2018 by Kenngo1969

[rockpond]

21 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

But (to you, to JLHProf, or to anyone else who cares to explain), if revelation has not "diminished or gone" but the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints now is being governed by consensus, what is the relationship (if any) between consensus and revelation?  Doesn't denigrating consensus put the Brethren and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in an impossible position?  

If President Nelson announced a revelation with which no one else in The Fifteen was in accord, would those who now decry consensus shout, "Hooray!  Revelation at last!"  Or, instead, would many of those who now decry consensus accuse him of "going off of the reservation" (my phrase)?  I daresay that many of those who now decry consensus would do exactly that.  What if the alleged "revelation" were even more politically incorrect than purported revelations which have already been received?

You seem to be talking to people who decry and/or denigrate consensus.  I have not and do not.

While consensus and revelation are separate and distinct things, I have a hard time imagining the receipt of revelation without it being welcomed among all the apostles (consensus).

I look forward to new revelation!

[why me]

It should be no surprise that the system has changed. People do not have time these days to do visting or home teaching. The economic system is monopolizing people's time. Between work pressure and family pressure, people were beginning to feel the pinch of time. Not to mention church callings. I remember years ago when men had time to play softball in a league. Or going to a bowling alley to watch bowling teams play eachother. But these days, it is pretty near impossible to have such things nowadays. And I never heard people complain about a lack of time when it came to visiting or home teaching. Something had changed in the lives of church members work erodes more and more of people's time.

Edited April 8, 2018 by why me

[Glenn101]

14 hours ago, rockpond said:

3) Prophets can and do make mistakes.  But I’ve never claimed that personal revelation given to me applies to anyone else. 

I do not understand this when taken in conjunction with your statement:

19 hours ago, rockpond said:

The question of whether I have receive personal revelation that differs from the Brethren?  Yes. 

That induces a cognitive dissonance to me.

Glenn

[rockpond]

8 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

I do not understand this when taken in conjunction with your statement:

That induces a cognitive dissonance to me.

Glenn

As I am sure you already know (but repeating here to assist in my response), cognitive dissonance is the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioral decisions and attitude change.

There is nothing inconsistent with my thoughts, beliefs, and attitudes.  I can sustain the prophet but don't need to agree with everything he ever says.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, why me said:

It should be no surprise that the system has changed. People do not have time these days to do visting or home teaching. The economic system is monopolizing people's time. Between work pressure and family pressure, people were beginning to feel the pinch of time. Not to mention church callings. I remember years ago when men had time to play softball in a league. Or going to a bowling alley to watch bowling teams play eachother. But these days, it is pretty near impossible to have such things nowadays. And I never heard people complain about a lack of time when it came to visiting or home teaching. Something had changed in the lives of church members work erodes more and more of people's time.

Remove TV and movies and video games, at home or elsewhere since the three are now completely portable...how much time do you think that would free up?

This has on average 40ish hours a week in 88.

https://eh.net/encyclopedia/hours-of-work-in-u-s-history/

Quote

In 2006, the average man employed full-time worked 8.4 hours per work day, and the average woman employed full-time worked 7.7 hours per work day.[19] There is no mandatory minimum amount of paid time off for sickness or holiday. The majority of jobs in America do not offer paid time off. [53] Because of the pressure of working, time is increasingly viewed as a commodity

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time

So 2 more hours a week for work.

Quote

People 24 and under are watching, roughly, two fewer hours of live TV and DVR programming per week than last year. And 25- to 34-year-olds (roughly speaking, millennials)? They’re watching an hour less per week, down from 27 and a half hours to 26 and a half hours. People between 35 and 49 mostly held steady and are watching about 22 minutes less television per week: 36 and a half hours from nearly 37 hours a week...

The amount of time you spend consuming media — watching TV, surfing the web on a computer, using an app on your phone, listening to the radio and so forth — continues to go up. Nielsen said that in 2015, Americans spent about nine and a half hours each day consuming content this way. This year? The average is 10 hours and 39 minutes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/01/business/media/nielsen-survey-media-viewing.html

Nielsen rating tv (live and playback in the home) has gone up 2 hours a day, not week, since 1990.

http://www.nielsen.com/content/dam/corporate/us/en/newswire/uploads/2009/11/historicalviewing.pdf

So you have 2 more hours a week work on average and 14 more hours of TV (this may not count mobile devices like phones and tablets away from home).

Edited April 8, 2018 by Calm

[Kenngo1969]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Remove TV and movies and video games, at home or elsewhere since the three are now completely portable...how much time do you think that would free up?

Tons.  While you're at it, throw in computers and social media (including MD&DB ... you might be surprised to learn the extent to which I have rediscovered actual books during my self-imposed semi-banning ... ) I think "doing away" with Home Teaching & Visiting Teaching, at least in part, is to reinforce the idea that "it ain't just about a monthly visit, folks."  

[Tacenda]

58 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Tons.  While you're at it, throw in computers and social media (including MD&DB ... you might be surprised to learn the extent to which I have rediscovered actual books during my self-imposed semi-banning ... ) I think "doing away" with Home Teaching & Visiting Teaching, at least in part, is to reinforce the idea that "it ain't just about a monthly visit, folks."  

I hope I'm wrong, but I tend to believe that it won't be done as well as before, because people need that accountability sometimes. When I became inactive I wasn't called to do much in the way of service. Then I started visiting teaching and that helped, I wouldn't have done it had I not been called to it. That's why I asked my bishop in my new ward if I could have a service calling and he put me on the Compassionate Service committee. The RS president is meeting with me next week. But hopefully it will change people in how they go about doing service or friendshipping, it will be on them to come up with a system I guess.

[SteveO]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Remove TV and movies and video games, at home or elsewhere since the three are now completely portable...how much time do you think that would free up?

It’s a different economic world definitely.  But people need to learn to live within their means and the virtue of delayed gratification.  There’s always time to be found.  

[Marginal Gains]

2 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

I do not understand this when taken in conjunction with your statement:

That induces a cognitive dissonance to me.

Glenn

In what way does someone having personal revelation that conflicts with the Brethren induce cognitive dissonance in you?

Edited April 8, 2018 by Marginal Gains

[why me]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Remove TV and movies and video games, at home or elsewhere since the three are now completely portable...how much time do you think that would free up?

This has on average 40ish hours a week in 88.

https://eh.net/encyclopedia/hours-of-work-in-u-s-history/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time

So 2 more hours a week for work.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/01/business/media/nielsen-survey-media-viewing.html

Nielsen rating tv (live and playback in the home) has gone up 2 hours a day, not week, since 1990.

http://www.nielsen.com/content/dam/corporate/us/en/newswire/uploads/2009/11/historicalviewing.pdf

So you have 2 more hours a week work on average and 14 more hours of TV (this may not count mobile devices like phones and tablets away from home).

People want their own time. They may not want to share that time. Too many pressures: school, work, family, insularization, alienation etc. I have heard it often: the church is taking up too much time. We are living in a brave new world and the church had to succumb to the pressures. The lds church lost to video games, work load, family load, school load etc. In the past, people also watched TV but work life was less stressful and family time was available. Mormons were famous for home evening on Mondays. There are reasons for these changes and they can found in the changes in society.

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

But (to you, to JLHProf, or to anyone else who cares to explain), if revelation has not "diminished or gone" but the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints now is being governed by consensus, what is the relationship (if any) between consensus and revelation? 

You're asking the wrong person.  I don't think the Lord has given the Church a full revelation in decades and it has diminished.  I think the Lord sometimes inspires or prompts the choices made, but I don't think he has spoken his word in years.

4 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

If President Nelson announced a revelation with which no one else in The Fifteen was in accord, would those who now decry consensus shout, "Hooray!  Revelation at last!"  Or, instead, would many of those who now decry consensus accuse him of "going off of the reservation" (my phrase)?  I daresay that many of those who now decry consensus would do exactly that.

I can't speak for anyone else but I don't need the accord, seal of approval, official status, or anything similar to accept a revelation.

I accept many of the uncanonized revelations recorded by the prophets as coming directly from God.

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, rockpond said:

I'm not sure why you think I am not acting on it.

Because your rebellion so far seems limited to internet posting. If the Lord were to vouchsafe you revelation that the Brethren have gone astray in how they receive revelation and told you to share it I expect more. You know, running naked through the streets screaming it.

8 hours ago, rockpond said:

I don't expect anyone else to automatically believe me and, or course, it is only my stewardship.  I've already made these points.

This board is your stewardship? How do you get that calling?

8 hours ago, rockpond said:

Big ol' strawman here.  Nothing I've said should have even suggested you arrive at this point.

Okay, stick with the low key murmuring then if you do not want to start a new Restoration. Have fun.

[Stargazer]

On 4/5/2018 at 6:17 PM, JLHPROF said:

I see most of what the Church today labels as "revelation" being a watered down version of the word.

Somewhere we went from God's word to good feelings.

I don't know about you but I have been getting more revelation in the last three years than in the previous ten years combined. And it's not just good feelings and it's not watered down.

President Nelson is repeating what he heard Moses say...

27 And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.
28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.
29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!

Numbers chapter 11.

If the Saints are not to stand on borrowed light then they need to get their own.

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I don't know about you but I have been getting more revelation in the last three years than in the previous ten years combined. And it's not just good feelings and it's not watered down.

President Nelson is repeating what he heard Moses say...

27 And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.
28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.
29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!

Numbers chapter 11.

If the Saints are not to stand on borrowed light then they need to get their own.

 Amen to that!

[Calm]

50 minutes ago, why me said:

People want their own time. They may not want to share that time. Too many pressures: school, work, family, insularization, alienation etc. I have heard it often: the church is taking up too much time. We are living in a brave new world and the church had to succumb to the pressures. The lds church lost to video games, work load, family load, school load etc. In the past, people also watched TV but work life was less stressful and family time was available. Mormons were famous for home evening on Mondays. There are reasons for these changes and they can found in the changes in society.

It is spring break in our part of Utah.

Today was fast and testimony.  Several parents got up and told how over the past week they went with their kids to do baptisms at different temples than they usually went to...the temples were all packed with youth doing baptisms for the dead for their spring break activity.

It can be done.  It is usually a choice, though there are obviously many families with lower incomes or other reasons who do not have the free time that others do, but it is unlikely a majority of people in the Church who are in that position.  It will be a matter of priorities for the rest of us, just as it always has been.

[Glenn101]

1 hour ago, Marginal Gains said:

In what way does someone having personal revelation that conflicts with the Brethren induce cognitive dissonance in you?

Very simple. When a person claims  a personal revelation is not for the church, but it conflicts with a revelation from the brethren that is for the church. Can you give me an example where they both can be true? 

Glenn

[Glenn101]

1 hour ago, why me said:

People want their own time. They may not want to share that time. Too many pressures: school, work, family, insularization, alienation etc. I have heard it often: the church is taking up too much time. We are living in a brave new world and the church had to succumb to the pressures. The lds church lost to video games, work load, family load, school load etc. In the past, people also watched TV but work life was less stressful and family time was available. Mormons were famous for home evening on Mondays. There are reasons for these changes and they can found in the changes in society.

People are living a higher better today than I can ever remember, in the way of creature comforts and they actually have much more free time to do things other than make a living. Machinery has eased the manual labor burden and information technology has given us so much more rapid means of research, etc. I think the work life stress is more dependent on the type of work one does. School load has also been eased by technology and the access to information so much more easily. But I do believe that you are correct that the changes have come about because of changes in society and so many members of the church following those changes. The time is still available to do the work of the Lord, it just has become less of a priority to many.

Glenn

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I hope I'm wrong, but I tend to believe that it won't be done as well as before, because people need that accountability sometimes.

I hope you are wrong also. But people will still be assigned families to minister to. And I am hoping that the emphasis on helping people, identifying their needs and looking for ways to help them while moving to a less rigid visit every month and give a lesson to a more spiritually discerning mode will rekindle the zeal that I once saw in the church just about everywhere I went for visiting and checking on the members, especially those who are not seen very often or at all.

Glenn

[Tacenda]

Just now, Glenn101 said:

People are living a higher better today than I can ever remember, in the way of creature comforts and they actually have much more free time to do things other than make a living. Machinery has eased the manual labor burden and information technology has given us so much more rapid means of research, etc. I think the work life stress is more dependent on the type of work one does. School load has also been eased by technology and the access to information so much more easily. But I do believe that you are correct that the changes have come about because of changes in society and so many members of the church following those changes. The time is still available to do the work of the Lord, it just has become less of a priority to many.

Glenn

I hope you are wrong also. But people will still be assigned families to minister to. And I am hoping that the emphasis on helping people, identifying their needs and looking for ways to help them while moving to a less rigid visit every month and give a lesson to a more spiritually discerning mode will rekindle the zeal that I once saw in the church just about everywhere I went for visiting and checking on the members, especially those who are not seen very often or at all.

Glenn

Oh, I didn't know that members are still assigned families. Good to know!!

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Because your rebellion so far seems limited to internet posting. If the Lord were to vouchsafe you revelation that the Brethren have gone astray in how they receive revelation and told you to share it I expect more. You know, running naked through the streets screaming it.

This board is your stewardship? How do you get that calling?

Okay, stick with the low key murmuring then if you do not want to start a new Restoration. Have fun.

You seem to be very confused. 

Disagreement is not a rebellion.  Disagreement is not murmuring  

This board is not my stewardship but I did think that I was permitted to share my beliefs.  If that has changed, let me know. 

[JLHPROF]

43 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

Very simple. When a person claims  a personal revelation is not for the church, but it conflicts with a revelation from the brethren that is for the church. Can you give me an example where they both can be true? 

Glenn

Joseph Smith received D&C 132 and it was not for the Church body for a decade after his death, AND at the time it contracted the official canonized teachings within the Church.

[Rain]

5 hours ago, why me said:

It should be no surprise that the system has changed. People do not have time these days to do visting or home teaching. The economic system is monopolizing people's time. Between work pressure and family pressure, people were beginning to feel the pinch of time. Not to mention church callings. I remember years ago when men had time to play softball in a league. Or going to a bowling alley to watch bowling teams play eachother. But these days, it is pretty near impossible to have such things nowadays. And I never heard people complain about a lack of time when it came to visiting or home teaching. Something had changed in the lives of church members work erodes more and more of people's time.

I also agree that it is choice for the most part. On average my husband is gone 55 hours per week with work and travel to work. Some days he has other meetings at home on the phone internationally at 3 or 4am. He travels out of the country for a total of about 2 months per year.

Then he is a graduate student in engineering. Usually he just has a 4 credit class. One of the semesters he had 8 credits. He doesn't do school work on Sunday.

We have a date nearly every week, FHE nearly every week (though usually on Sunday).

He is the YM's leader and is gone at least 1 night a week with that, sometimes more. 

Still he has time to home teach. After discussing it with each other he won't take on more than 2 families till he is finished with school and he tells them he wants my son as a companion just so they can work together on something. With one family he never gets out in less than 2 hours. Often 3. The man offends many people and needs to talk. He also calls for middle of the night blessings and lately they have been bringing the sacrament too. With the other family they are there about 1.5 hours because she needs to talk as well and they also help with stuff around the house. 

And he still finds time to spend with me and the kids here and there through the week, go to concerts etc for the kids, help me with my projects, take care of some of the yard and house work, go to the temple and read his scriptures and book before bed. 

I will admit I am so grateful he won't have school in a year, I really look forward to it. We just don't see a lot of changes in HT with this because he is already ministering now. It is one of those things my husband, the introvert, really enjoys. He didn't always.  Now that he is making it a priority he likes it so much more.

 

Edited April 8, 2018 by Rain

[Hamba Tuhan]

On 4/8/2018 at 7:09 AM, rockpond said:

If we are going to dismiss anything that differs from turn Brethren it becomes somewhat meaningless to ask. 

I missed the opportunity to learn calculus at school. My sister, who is a maths teacher, gave me a set of discarded calculus texts: the teacher edition and the student edition. I find it a very meaningful exercise to attempt to work out the practice problems on my own and then consult the answers in the teacher edition. I suspect that I wouldn't be learning quite so much about calculus as a system -- and about how to become an independent learner of mathematics -- if I were to maintain that my answers were just as right as, or even better than, those in the teacher edition. Similarly, I don't think I would be learning much at all if I just looked at the answers without trying to solve the practice problems myself. But as always, to each his own.

Edited April 8, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Glenn101]

15 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Joseph Smith received D&C 132 and it was not for the Church body for a decade after his death, AND at the time it contracted the official canonized teachings within the Church.

That is really an inapt comparison since this was merely a delayed implementation and not a personal revelation by another person.

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, why me said:

People want their own time. They may not want to share that time.

This is often the case. People also frequently want their own money, without having to share any of it. And other things too. In short, it's a natural response for people to want their own lives.

Latter-day Saints, on the other hand, take seriously the warning about what happens for those who focus on finding their own lives, laying up treasures on earth. And I'm deeply grateful that we have temple covenants that really help with making the better choice of losing one's life for the Lord's sake.

11 minutes ago, Rain said:

With one family he never gets out in less than 2 hours. Often 3. The man offends many people and needs to talk. He also calls for middle of the night blessings and lately they have been bringing the sacrament too. With the other family they are there about 1.5 hours because she needs to talk as well and they also help with stuff around the house. 

And he still finds time to spend with me and the kids here and there through the week, go to concerts etc for the kids, help me with my projects, take care of some of the yard and house work, go to the temple and read his scriptures and book before bed. 

God bless your good husband! And God bless his good wife too!

The last time I served in the bishopric, I was a full-time post-graduate student and a part-time (5 hours/day) academic. I also was assigned (by myself, so clearly no complaints ...) to home-teach six families that sound a bit like those your husband and son visit. I know from personal experience that life somehow works when we insist on putting God first and keeping covenants.

Quote

We just don't see a lot of changes in HT with this because he is already ministering now.

Exactly!