Policy And Doctrine Vs Tradition

[Messenger]

Messenger

Great topic. The last ward I was in the Gospel Doctrine teacher, who was also the seminary teacher, had taught GD for over 8 years. They aren't about to remove them. It is also tradition to wear jeans and cowboy boots to church, in my last ward. I never did but plenty of members in that ward do and it is was refreshing to see. During the fall and spring when the cattle needed to be moved, many of the ward members would be absent while they were on a cattle drive instead of at church. This tradition is so steeped in the local culture that it is completely normal for half the priesthood to be gone doing a drive for a couple of sundays a year. I loved that ward. Ma ny times the sisters would accompany the men on the drives and be absent to.

Sweetpotatoh,

I've enjoyed exploring this topic that the Stake Representative gave us. He's a very unique guy, and is also the one that set me apart. I've got a lot of respect for him because of some things he said when I was set apart. The topic has been good for me because I tend to come down on one side or another. They tell is to do that when we teach in the church. However, this is one of those topics where there is both good and bad in following it. Perhaps there are more subjects like that out there.

Another tradition in my old ward in Rexburg was that after a baby was blessed and given a name by the Priesthood father, the mother would stand up and everyone would recognize her. Thats a good one in my book. My Bishop would always say that it was a tradition of our ward. Looking back, I know why now. Its good to call it for what it is, and when a tradition becomes a burdon, then perhaps its time to stop that tradition.

I suppose we also develop our own traditions in our lives. Perhaps some of them are good, at least for now. Its kind of refreshing to have been handed a topic like this, and not know the answer up front. Since conference is on my Sunday to teach, I'll have another three months before I teach this lesson now. And plenty of time to think about it some more. I wonder what the HP Group leader, and the 1st assistant will teach? They have also been tasked with the same lesson. Both are lawyers ... It will be interesting to see what they come up with.

[sweetpotatoh]

I think recognizing the mother is a great tradition. I agree that the topic is certainly not traditional. It is interesting to see what the other Priesthood leaders will teach. I would love to know what they taught. Maybe you could give us the readers digest version? I know it is not for another 3 months, but i am willing to wait.

[annewandering]

three months. hmm You will have the great opportunity to sum up the subject. Considering the others are lawyers perhaps making it closer to the hearts of the class members. In other words you get the last word in. Make it good!

[Messenger]

three months. hmm You will have the great opportunity to sum up the subject. Considering the others are lawyers perhaps making it closer to the hearts of the class members. In other words you get the last word in. Make it good!

No doubt! Wish I could say more regarding that! But I will post the lesson here when its finished

[Stargazer]

Maybe he's just shy, doesn't like asking women to do stuff.

Nah. I know him quite well. He's not in the least bit shy. Former policeman, former prison guard. And a great guy all around. But not shy at all.

[Messenger]

Finally, I'm teaching this lesson this Sunday!

[Saints Alive]

When I was a little girl in grade school a girl told me that her primary teacher taught that beards and facial hair were only worn by followers of the devil. It infuriated me because my dad had always worn a mustache. I knew he was not a follower of the devil!

Today my husband wears a mustache and a beard and he is a very nice man

Some traditions are just bigotry and narrowmindedness.

I guess no one pointed out that BY and other founding Prophets had beards?

[Saints Alive]

The rules are just the last step in a long process of bad judgement.

on the bright side, bad judgement makes for good stories.

[Nominee]

Our High Priest Group leadership; which includes me, have been tasked to give lessons on separating tradition from doctrine in the church. Now I'm thinking how I can incorporate that into my lessons in church. I have been instructed to use the Priesthood Handbook 2 as my guide to policy and doctrine. Im thinking there may be many traditions in Home Teaching that dont have a lot to do with doctrine; mainly focused on authority of the Home Teacher and the Head of the Family.

Preliminary Concepts to Tradition Vs Doctrine:

1) Taking the sacrement with the right hand

2) Wearing a white shirt vs colored shirt in sacrement meeting, and or while administering the sacrement

3) Home teaching at church instead of at home

4) Using only white bread during sacrement

5) Members cant have beards

Some resources I have found:

Handbook 2: Administering the Church

Confusing Doctrine with Tradition: Chapter 4

Any other ideas?

I have never before heard of taking the sacrement with the right hand being more or less important than taking it with the left. Really?

I had heard, only recently, about the white shirt thing but I am pretty sure that even this was by a missionary for a missionary.

My son wears white shirts but that is because its easier and he likes them white. Sometime he wears a jacket over his shirt and sometimes he wears a sweater over his shirt. His sweaters tend to be bright red or dark blue. I would say in our ward we guide each other with example on this matter and the only thing really frowned upon is half nakedness.

Home teaching in the church instead of at home is frowned upon and only done if it is necessary and the difference between this or no visit at all.

I really thought about this one for a minute and I'm sure I have never seen white bread in my ward for sacrement! We have wheat and there is usually always some rice cake crumbled in there.

We have beards, it's no big deal, it's random, and it has nothing to do with church tradition or policy.

edit:

Oh! Flips-flops are definitely frowned upon! It's a big no no to wear flip-flops to church. Barefeet are totally okay but flip-flops are just flippin' disrespectful and you'll get a speaking to.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Nominee

[cinepro]

I have never before heard of taking the sacrament with the right hand being more or less important than taking it with the left. Really?

...Our people have been taught to take the sacrament with the right hand; we believe that is appropriate, and proper, and acceptable to our Father. The sacrament should not be accepted with a gloved hand; nobody should receive it in that irreverent manner. (Conference Report, April 1908)

It is the custom to extend the right hand in token of fellowship. The right hand is called the dexter, and the left, the sinister; dexter means right and sinister means left. Dexter, or right, means favorable or propitious. Sinister is associated with evil, rather than good, Sinister means perverse. We take the sacrament with the right hand. We sustain the authorities with the right hand. We make acknowledgment with the right hand raised.

Joseph Fielding Smith (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.3, p.108)

I had heard, only recently, about the white shirt thing but I am pretty sure that even this was by a missionary for a missionary.

My son wears white shirts but that is because its easier and he likes them white. Sometime he wears a jacket over his shirt and sometimes he wears a sweater over his shirt. His sweaters tend to be bright red or dark blue. I would say in our ward we guide each other with example on this matter and the only thing really frowned upon is half nakedness.

May I suggest that wherever possible a white shirt be worn by the deacons, teachers, and priests who handle the sacrament. For sacred ordinances in the Church we often use ceremonial clothing, and a white shirt could be seen as a gentle reminder of the white clothing you wore in the baptismal font and an anticipation of the white shirt you will soon wear into the temple and onto your missions.

That simple suggestion is not intended to be pharisaic or formalistic. We do not want deacons or priests in uniforms or unduly concerned about anything but the purity of their lives. But how our young people dress can teach a holy principle to us all, and it certainly can convey sanctity. As President David O. McKay taught, a white shirt contributes to the sacredness of the holy sacrament (see Conference Report, Oct. 1956, p. 89).

Elder Holland

No one has ever explained to me why black pants are ok though.

Edited December 2, 2011 by cinepro

[Messenger]

I guess no one pointed out that BY and other founding Prophets had beards?

Yes they did! and so do I, which I frequently point out, and plan again to point out in tomorrows lesson.

[Messenger]

Quote

...Our people have been taught to take the sacrament with the right hand; we believe that is appropriate, and proper, and acceptable to our Father. The sacrament should not be accepted with a gloved hand; nobody should receive it in that irreverent manner. (Conference Report, April 1908)

No one has ever explained to me why black pants are ok though.

Regarding the right hand, that was chruch policy back in 1908, but I would say it is not doctrine. There is no current reference in the General Priesthood manual of instruction to support that policy that we take the sacrement only with the right hand. Also there are no scriptural referencea to support that as being doctrine either. Therefore, its perfectly fine to take it with any hand. Those that choose to take it with the right hand only are simply taking it that way out of tradition and old policy rather than doctrine, or are simply right handed.

Edited December 3, 2011 by Messenger

[Messenger]

Some of you have asked for a copy of the lessson ..... here it is .... Keep in mind that this is my way of formatting a lesson in outline style. It allows me to interact. So, if my lesson style bothers anybody, I would say change it to what works for you.

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Traditions

Traditions are a lot like habits, but the recurrence is much greater in time and can involve more people.

Some examples of Traditions:

1. Celebrating Halloween
   
2. Inviting someone in need for Thanksgiving dinner
   

What are some traditions that your family practices?

What are some Ward traditions that are practiced?

1. Recognizing the mother after a baby blessing
   

“Another tradition in my old ward in Rexburg was that after a baby was blessed and given a name by the Priesthood father, the mother would stand up and everyone would recognize her. That’s a good one in my book. My Bishop would always say that it was a tradition of our ward. Looking back, I know why now. It’s good to call it for what it is, and when a tradition becomes a burden, then perhaps its time to stop that tradition.”

Are there traditions that are doctrine?

1. Mission Service for Men
   
2. Fasting
   

Are there church traditions that are not set in doctrine?

1. Taking the sacrament with the right hand.
   

“...Our people have been taught to take the sacrament with the right hand; we believe that is appropriate, and proper, and acceptable to our Father. The sacrament should not be accepted with a gloved hand; nobody should receive it in that irreverent manner. (Conference Report, April 1908)”

Russell M. Nelson / I have a question / March 1983

The hand used in partaking of the sacrament would logically be the same hand used in making any other sacred oath. For most of us, that would be the right hand. However, sacramental covenants—and other eternal covenants as well—can be and are made by those who have lost the use of the right hand, or who have no hands at all. Much more important than concern over which hand is used in partaking of the sacrament is that the sacrament be partaken with a deep realization of the atoning sacrifice that the sacrament represents

There is no reference in the Priesthood Manual about the right hand only being used to partake of the sacrament.

What about these?

1. Dressing in a white shirt during sacrament meeting?
   

Handbook 2

20.4 Sacrament

20.4.1 General Guidelines

Those who bless and pass the sacrament should dress modestly and be well groomed and clean. Clothing or jewelry should not call attention to itself or distract members during the sacrament. Ties and white shirts are recommended because they add to the dignity of the ordinance. However, they should not be required as a mandatory prerequisite for a priesthood holder to participate. Nor should it be required that all be alike in dress and appearance. Bishops should use discretion when giving such guidance to young men, taking into account their financial circumstances and maturity in the Church.

1. 
   

• Home teaching at some other place other than home? (Later)
  

• Using only white bread during sacrament?
  

Answer: There is no reference to any particular type of bread

1. 
   

• Men wearing beards in the temple.
  

Answer: There is no reference to beards of any kind.

• People having tattoos and having a calling or going to the temple?
  

Answer: There is no reference to that restriction – but it might be a distraction

• Are there any reasons when a once good tradition is no longer recommended to be followed?
  

Answer: Missionary Farewells

The spirit guides us to what to do, and what to follow. There is a common thread in everything we do. Love.

1. Does God want us to only love our own family members?
   
   1. 
      
   2. Mathew 22:36-40 (have someone read)
      
      
      1. 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
         
      2. 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
         
      3. 38 This is the first and great commandment.
         
      4. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
         
      5. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
         
         
         
         
         
         

Home Teaching Policy vs traditions

• Responsibilities of Home Teachers – Handbook 2 7.4.1 – pp 43
  

1. Where possible, home teachers visit members in their homes at least monthly.
   
2. Home teachers represent the Lord, the bishop, and quorum or group leaders.
   
3. Become acquainted with family members’ interests and needs and recognize special events in their lives.
   
4. As needed, home teachers help parents ensure that their children are blessed, baptized, and confirmed. They may also help parents ensure that their sons have the Aaronic Priesthood and Melchizedek Priesthood conferred upon them and are ordained to priesthood offices at the appropriate ages
   
5. Home teachers offer help when members are unemployed, ill, lonely, moving, or have other needs.
   
6. They remember that they are guests of the members they visit.
   
7. Each visit should focus on a planned purpose. Before visiting a home, companions pray together. They discuss ways they can strengthen those they will visit.
   
8. They share a message, usually taken from the scriptures and the First Presidency’s message in the Ensign or Liahona magazine. Other messages may come from the bishop or other leaders. The head of the household may also request a special message. Home teaching visits typically include a prayer.
   
9. Each month, home teachers report to quorum or group leaders on the spiritual and temporal welfare of the members they visit. If a member’s needs are urgent, home teachers report them immediately.
   

• Reporting Home Teaching – Priesthood Manual 7.4.4 pp 44
  

1. Confidential information should be reported only to the Elder’s quorum president or high priests group leader, who reports it to the bishop.
   

Boyd K Packer…. Some traditions worth following …

I give as my first illustration of this unwritten order of things so simple a thing as this:

1. 
   

• The one who presides in a meeting should sit on the stand and sit close to the one conducting. It is a bit difficult to preside over a meeting from the congregation.
  

1. The one who presides is responsible for the conduct of the meeting and has the right and the responsibility to receive inspiration and may be prompted to adjust or correct something that goes on in the meeting. That is true whether it be an auxiliary meeting presided over by the sisters or any of our meetings.
   

• We do not aspire to callings in the Church, nor do we ask to be released.
  

1. We are called to positions in the Church by inspiration. Even if the call is presented in a clumsy way, it is not wise for us to refuse the call. We must presuppose that the call comes from the Lord. The fifth article of faith tells us that we “must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
   
2. If some circumstance makes it difficult for you to continue to serve, you are free to consult with the leader who called you. We do not call ourselves and we do not release ourselves. Sometimes a leader or a teacher enjoys the prominence of a presiding position so much that, even after serving for a long time, they do not want to be released. That is a sign that a release is timely. We should do as we are called. We should accept the calls and accept a release by the same authority.
   

• Another illustration. There is an order of things as to where we go for counsel or blessings. It is simple—we go to our parents.
  

1. When they are no longer available, if it is a blessing, then we may go to our home teacher. For counsel, you go to your bishop. He may choose to send you to his file leader—the stake president. But we do not go to the General Authorities. We do not write to them for counsel or suppose that someone in a more prominent position will give a more inspired blessing. If we could get this one thing taught in the Church, great power would rest upon us.
   
2. President Joseph F. Smith taught that should there be sickness in a home and should there be present “apostles, or even members of the first presidency of the Church, . . . the father is there. It is his right and it is his duty to preside” (Gospel Doctrine, p. 286).
   

Righteous Traditions

Cheryl C. Lant - Primary General President

“I would invite all of us to take a moment to reflect on the traditions in our lives and how they might be affecting our families. Our traditions of Sabbath day observance, family prayer, family scripture study, service and activity in the Church, as well as patterns of respect and loyalty in the home, will have a great effect on our children and on their future. If our parenting is based on the teachings of the scriptures and of the latter-day prophets, we cannot go wrong. If every time there is a challenge our hearts turn first and always to our Father in Heaven for direction, we will be in a safe place. If our children know where we stand and we always stand on the Lord’s side, we know we are where we need to be.”

Edited December 4, 2011 by Messenger

[Messenger]

Just got back from church, the lesson went well, there were definately people stuck on tradition in our group - White shirts, right hand, white bread! Yep, all of that. I had a member with an electronic version of the Handbook 2 and we did searches right on his I-Pad and most were satisfied.

We did have the ward clerk interrupt the meeting and try and schedule a member for tithing settlement during the lesson - Its was awkward. haha! Just goes along with church policy about the responsiblity of conducting the meeting. It was me! But the member lashed out after I asked if we could just have one meeting please. He said, "Hey! we are conducting official church business!" LOL It was funny. The ward clerk shouldnt have put him in that position. But, next week, when I conduct, I will bring up church policy on the responsiblity of preisthood in conducting meetings!

Im going to tithing settlement in a few hours, I will bring it up to the bishp then as well so he can work with the Ward Clerk. No hard feelings at all, but he's an elder and probably didnt think twice about it. But should have asked to meet with the member after church to discuss the meeting, especially when I asked him to. Its funny how these things lead right into the lesson.

[frankenstein]

Those stuck on white bread need to read the D&C wherein is writtwn that it matters not what is used for the sacrement so long as whatever ia used is done in Christs name

[Messenger]

Yep, I brought up a story on that, plus the scriptures, but they were still stuck! LOL. Clearly our ward needed the lesson. I felt a bit like a lightning rod, Im ok with that. Im probably the only guy that could have taught that lesson in our ward. I am not about politics and rarely let that affect me. The right hand for taking the sacrement was a big one for one of the guys. Even after all that was mentioned, it was still engrained in him. I just repeated twice the words from Russell M. Nelson, " Much more important than concern over which hand is used in partaking of the sacrament is that the sacrament be partaken with a deep realization of the atoning sacrifice that the sacrament represents" and doing another search for "right hand" in the Handbook 2. He finally backed down. I got good support from the High Priest Group Leader and a former bishop of the ward. Im still recovering from the anxieity a bit. Im happy to have a little pain for the Lord, I'm happy to have been blessed with the courage to do this lesson.

The scripture Mathew 22:36-40 (love is the reason we do things) & the quote from Cheryl C. Lant (talk about the good things good traditions can bring) was essential to bring everyone back together again.

No doubt, it was the most difficult lessons to teach of any lesson I have ever taught in any teaching position in the church - bar none.

Edited December 4, 2011 by Messenger

[TAO]

I'm glad it worked out Messenger! It must be a rather difficult lesson to talk about... especially with so many people uncomfortable and such =P. But I'm glad you got it done =). The spirit of the sacrament is most important =D.

[Messenger]

Tao,

To be honest, the HP have been pretty militant lately. I put a lot of work into that lesson and they were all really defensive. Im re-evaluating everything right now. It was pretty disrespectful. On the one hand we had a clerk making appointments for tithing settlement DURING the lesson. And when I asked if we can have just one lesson (with a smile on my face), the member yells, "Hey, we are doing official church business!!" - I felt like saying, "and im not the teacher or the one priesthood leader conducting the meeting either." On the other we have members insisting - 4 times - that taking the sacrement with the right hand is the only way, no matter what I say; We check the handbook and search the conference talks.

Maybe we could just sing seminary songs and hand out cookies. I might as well be an elder! LOL

Edited December 5, 2011 by Messenger

[Nathair/|\]

I'm curious what your more dogmatic HP's propose amputees and those with severe OCD or germ phobia should do when taking the sacrament with an ungloved right hand is not an option.

[Messenger]

I'm curious what your more dogmatic HP's propose amputees and those with severe OCD or germ phobia should do when taking the sacrament with an ungloved right hand is not an option.

First of all, I dont know if I have any TRUELY dogmatic HP in my group. They appear to just be posers at being so when I teach. But a few of them complain when they cant hook up with thier home teaching companion and claim they cant go with thier wives either or call me. They only seem tough when it comes to telling everyone else how to take thier sacrament, what bread to use, and for gosh sake, dont interupt them when you are teaching the lesson and presiding over the meeting! LOL