Home/Visiting Teaching to be discontinued

[Avatar4321]

9 hours ago, churchistrue said:

What do you guys think of this being called a revelation? And do you think Pres. Nelson in his talk Sunday is intentionally trying to demystify the concept of revelation and make us expect it to happen more regularly and call somewhat ordinary changes "revelations"? Do you see this as a "water down" of the word revelation? Is that a good or bad thing?

http://www.churchistrue.com/blog/russell-m-nelson-revelation-for-the-church-revelation-for-our-lives/

Revelation happens all the time in the Church

[Avatar4321]

9 hours ago, mnn727 said:

I'm kind of at a loss. I have been a 100% Home Teacher for years, making my appointments usually the first week of the month. Now I feel like I need some direction, hopefully this coming Sunday.

I am not an extrovert, I've tried conversation but I'm at a loss after a few minutes. Other than Church and the Gospel, I have very little in common with my families, but with a lesson, it always worked out OK.

I'm kind of lost here.

I think we can still give messages. But they will be tailored to what they need. Or if they need service we can focus on that.

 

 

[Avatar4321]

9 hours ago, rockpond said:

I'm not sure.  I still like to believe in a church that is led by the Lord himself.  But it is sounding more like it is just our prophet and apostles being able to reach consensus (possibly after a limited trial run) and then deeming it revelation.

The Lord is running the Church.

if you don’t realize that, ask Him. Get revelation for yourself 

[rockpond]

13 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

The Lord is running the Church.

if you don’t realize that, ask Him. Get revelation for yourself 

The personal revelation I have received tells me the Lord is not running the church.  

President Nelson confirmed it last weekend when he explained that they run the church by consensus. 

Edited April 6, 2018 by rockpond

[Calm]

2 hours ago, rockpond said:

 

The old ward no longer exists.  It was divided into three pieces and split between two stakes.

They have to attend released-time seminary in the other stake.  I think that has helped my oldest at least connect with the kids at his school.  I’m hoping that it will help my 13 year old when he enters high school next year. 

Not sure what to do with 10 year old daughter.  She’s super devout but feels broken hearted so often at church. 

It’s crazy, even though I am not considered a faithful member by some here, because of my views, I still have a hard time with my kids not feeling like they have a place in the church.  And serving as YM Pres, I often have to go to activities without my sons.

Sorry.  I’m venting.  I need to stop.  

Idea:  Talk to her leaders, see if there is anyone that would be a good match with your daughter, hopefully the same age, but a little younger or older might work.  Then start inviting her to do things with your daughter like going to movies or the zoo, getting their hair done at a local hair salon or checking out a bookstore (maybe they can both read the same book so they have someone to talk to about it), bike riding, picnic, or something else they both have fun with, maybe even talk to the parents how this could be a fellowshipping opportunity for their daughter so they can feel positive about it.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Calm

[Avatar4321]

4 hours ago, rockpond said:

The personal revelation I have received tells me the Lord is not running the church.  

President Nelson confirmed it last weekend when he explained that they run the church by consensus. 

I don't knows what talk you were listening to but that isn't what president nelson said at all. Quite the opposite.

 

[Marginal Gains]

8 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

The Lord is running the Church.

if you don’t realize that, ask Him. Get revelation for yourself 

 

7 hours ago, rockpond said:

The personal revelation I have received tells me the Lord is not running the church.  

Now what?

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

 

Now what?

Everyone operates on the light they have personally received.  All anyone can do is be true to their own revelations and eventually God will correct those who are in error one way or another.

"For I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it;" -Joseph Smith 

Edited April 6, 2018 by JLHPROF

[bsjkki]

12 hours ago, rockpond said:

 

The old ward no longer exists.  It was divided into three pieces and split between two stakes.

They have to attend released-time seminary in the other stake.  I think that has helped my oldest at least connect with the kids at his school.  I’m hoping that it will help my 13 year old when he enters high school next year. 

Not sure what to do with 10 year old daughter.  She’s super devout but feels broken hearted so often at church. 

It’s crazy, even though I am not considered a faithful member by some here, because of my views, I still have a hard time with my kids not feeling like they have a place in the church.  And serving as YM Pres, I often have to go to activities without my sons.

Sorry.  I’m venting.  I need to stop.  

This is a good place to vent. I hoped for Mormon friends for my kids when we moved to a more Mormon area. Ward boundaries and changes have not worked in our favor. It is hard to have your children feel isolated and alone at church. One of mine was bullied extensively at church (in the sadistic girl way of freezing out and spreading rumors). It really effected her. My others don’t have friends at church but at least don’t cry after coming home. They attend and are active but I don’t make them go to everything. Feeling alone in the crowd does not help build testimonies. There are no easy answers and it is hard to watch your children suffer. These things can have long lasting impacts on future church activity. I’m sending one to EFY with a Mormon friend she had when she was 3. We will see how it goes. I’m focusing on building testimonies because I can’t fix the ward social problems.

Edited April 6, 2018 by bsjkki

[rongo]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

This is a good place to vent. I hoped for Mormon friends for my kids when we moved to a more Mormon area. Ward boundaries and changes have not worked in our favor. It is hard to have your children feel isolated and alone at church. One of mine was bullied extensively at church (in the sadistic girl way of freezing out and spreading rumors). It really effected her. My others don’t have friends at church but at least don’t cry after coming home. They attend and are active but I don’t make them go to everything. Feeling alone in the crowd does not help build testimonies. There are no easy answers and it is hard to watch your children suffer. These things can have long lasting impacts on future church activity. I’m sending one to EFY with a Mormon friend she had when she was 3. We will see how it goes. I’m focusing on building testimonies because I can’t fix the ward social problems.

These stories are crazy! We're fortunate to not have any cliques or mean kids in our ward; they are friendly and inclusive (they are all also mostly "not the cool kids," but I wouldn't trade them for any of them). The ward that we share a building with has many "cool kids," and they are mean, non-inclusive, and full of drama (members from our former ward who now live there are going through a lot of what these stories tell. Knowing these wards was a big part of why we chose *not* to move into them when we moved up into town).

When we moved to Arizona, the first time I was ever at the church building, our bishop's son spit phlegm right in my face, and I beat him up. We actually became good friends, but I can't imagine anyone doing anything like that to anyone today. Then, shortly after that at Scout camp, another older kid started picking on me, and I beat him up, too. The Scoutmasters held a "kangaroo court," and I (the new kid) got sanctioned and yelled at. That ended that trouble, though, and those older boys respected me and included me after that. The boy I beat up at Scout camp recognized me years later at my old ward when he came to participate in a baby blessing, and he appears to have turned out okay.

Kids are mean to themselves in more emotional/psychological ways today. I think we had far more fights at school and church in the 80s than today, but some kids today go out of their way to ostracize and make kids feel unwanted and not included. For many kids, this is worse than physical intimidation. 

Edited April 6, 2018 by rongo

[Jeanne]

In my tiny ward..there was still the "in crowd" and those of us who just wore hand me downs...the mean kids are everywhere...LDS or not.  Just a part of growing up ....or not.

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

 

Now what?

Let them cut their relationship with the Priesthood Order, kick themselves out of the church, and go to hell I guess.

What kind of a response are you looking for?

[rockpond]

13 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

I don't knows what talk you were listening to but that isn't what president nelson said at all. Quite the opposite.

 

This is what President Nelson said (emphasis added by me):

When we convene as a Council of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve, our meeting rooms become rooms of revelation. The Spirit is palpably present. As we wrestle with complex matters, a thrilling process unfolds as each Apostle freely expresses his thoughts and point of view. Though we may differ in our initial perspectives, the love we feel for each other is constant. Our unity helps us to discern the Lord’s will for His Church.

In our meetings, the majority never rules! We listen prayerfully to one another and talk with each other until we are united. Then when we have reached complete accord, the unifying influence of the Holy Ghost is spine-tingling! We experience what the Prophet Joseph Smith knew when he taught, “By union of feeling we obtain power with God.”7 No member of the First Presidency or Quorum of the Twelve would ever leave decisions for the Lord’s Church to his own best judgment!

Consensus among the 15 equals "revelation".  This is not the first time we've heard that process described by an apostle.

It isn't a bad process but it is different than how revelation is described and/or depicted in our scriptures.

[Avatar4321]

29 minutes ago, rockpond said:

This is what President Nelson said (emphasis added by me):

When we convene as a Council of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve, our meeting rooms become rooms of revelation. The Spirit is palpably present. As we wrestle with complex matters, a thrilling process unfolds as each Apostle freely expresses his thoughts and point of view. Though we may differ in our initial perspectives, the love we feel for each other is constant. Our unity helps us to discern the Lord’s will for His Church.

In our meetings, the majority never rules! We listen prayerfully to one another and talk with each other until we are united. Then when we have reached complete accord, the unifying influence of the Holy Ghost is spine-tingling! We experience what the Prophet Joseph Smith knew when he taught, “By union of feeling we obtain power with God.”7 No member of the First Presidency or Quorum of the Twelve would ever leave decisions for the Lord’s Church to his own best judgment!

Consensus among the 15 equals "revelation".  This is not the first time we've heard that process described by an apostle.

It isn't a bad process but it is different than how revelation is described and/or depicted in our scriptures.

He is literally describing the process to get revelation and you are claiming it as evidence that the Lord doesn’t give revelation.

i don’t know how to respond to that 

[JLHPROF]

9 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

He is literally describing the process to get revelation and you are claiming it as evidence that the Lord doesn’t give revelation.

i don’t know how to respond to that 

Because this is NOT revelation:

• "Our unity helps us to discern the Lord’s will for His Church.
  We listen prayerfully to one another and talk with each other until we are united. Then when we have reached complete accord, the unifying influence of the Holy Ghost is spine-tingling! We experience what the Prophet Joseph Smith knew when he taught, “By union of feeling we obtain power with God.”

It could represent the will of God, it might not.  Revelation is when God speaks to man.  Prayer is when man speaks to God.
When God doesn't speak, but you feel good and united on an issue, that is not revelation.  Numerous revelations have come to the prophets that came without unity in the quorum.  And a feeling of unity doesn't guarantee God's involvement.  It might be inspired or it might not.
 

[rockpond]

7 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

He is literally describing the process to get revelation and you are claiming it as evidence that the Lord doesn’t give revelation.

i don’t know how to respond to that 

No, I am not nor have I ever claimed that the Lord doesn't give revelation.

President Nelson described a process by which decisions are made in the Quorum of the 12 and First Presidency and he called it "revelation".

It's not unlike the process that then Elder Oaks described in the last general conference when, speaking of the 1995 Family Proclamation, said:

Subjects were identified and discussed by members of the Quorum of the Twelve for nearly a year. Language was proposed, reviewed, and revised. Prayerfully we continually pleaded with the Lord for His inspiration on what we should say and how we should say it. We all learned “line upon line, precept upon precept,” as the Lord has promised (D&C 98:12).

During this revelatory process, a proposed text was presented to the First Presidency, who oversee and promulgate Church teachings and doctrine. After the Presidency made further changes, the proclamation on the family was announced by the President of the Church, Gordon B. Hinckley.

In this case, the "revelatory process" took nearly a year for the 12 to propose, review, and revise before passing it on to the next council (the FP) to make final changes and publish.  He noted, as did President Nelson, that they are prayerful and seek inspiration.  But, the council, deliberation, consensus process is different than, for example, how Joseph Smith or Moses received revelation.

[The Nehor]

Cool, have we moved on to garnishing sepulchres now?

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Cool, have we moved on to garnishing sepulchres now?

Well if the Church becomes full of dead men's bones we don't want to be hypocrites marvelling at its outward beauty and shiny whiteness.

[rockpond]

32 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Cool, have we moved on to garnishing sepulchres now?

Looking to scripture to understand revelation is hardly "garnishing sepulchres".

[Avatar4321]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Because this is NOT revelation:

• "Our unity helps us to discern the Lord’s will for His Church.
  We listen prayerfully to one another and talk with each other until we are united. Then when we have reached complete accord, the unifying influence of the Holy Ghost is spine-tingling! We experience what the Prophet Joseph Smith knew when he taught, “By union of feeling we obtain power with God.”

It could represent the will of God, it might not.  Revelation is when God speaks to man.  Prayer is when man speaks to God.
When God doesn't speak, but you feel good and united on an issue, that is not revelation.  Numerous revelations have come to the prophets that came without unity in the quorum.  And a feeling of unity doesn't guarantee God's involvement.  It might be inspired or it might not.
 

That is the process the Lord spelled out to receive revelation in D&C 9.

 

[rockpond]

2 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

That is the process the Lord spelled out to receive revelation in D&C 9.

 

The Lord doesn't call that a process for receiving revelation.  He's instructing Oliver Cowdery on translating.

The word "revelation" appears once in that section and it is in the header which describes the section itself as revelation.  And how was that revelation received by Joseph Smith?  Through a council that discussed, wrote, and revised the section as is our current "revelatory process" or was it spoken to Joseph Smith through the Spirit in the voice of the Lord?

It seems what our prophet and apostles are describing today is an inspired council process but, for me, it does not fit what we historically understood and accepted as revelation.

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

That is the process the Lord spelled out to receive revelation in D&C 9.

Seems like the process for translating sacred records to me.

Joseph described the process of receiving revelation a little differently.

"A person may profit by noticing the first intimation of the spirit of revelation; for instance, when you feel pure intelligence flowing into you, it may give you sudden strokes of ideas, so that by noticing it, you may find it fulfilled the same day or soon; (i.e.) those things that were presented unto your minds by the Spirit of God, will come to pass; and thus by learning the Spirit of God and understanding it, you may grow into the principle of revelation"

[Atheist Mormon]

On 3/16/2018 at 7:05 PM, FearlessFixxer said:

Multiple sources close to the matter have confirmed that the Mormon Church is replacing the Home and Visiting Teaching programs with a program called 'Ministering'. Participants will be referred to as 'Ministering Brothers' and 'Ministering Sisters'.

I am not trying to create drama, I just thought this forum would like to know.

Cheers

It was'n working for a long...long time......

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Well if the Church becomes full of dead men's bones we don't want to be hypocrites marvelling at its outward beauty and shiny whiteness.

So was the prophecy that the keys would never again be taken from the earth or the church fall again prophecy of the old or prophecy of the new kind?

Was President Kimball’s decision to extend the Priesthood to all worthy males similarly tainted?

2 hours ago, rockpond said:

Looking to scripture to understand revelation is hardly "garnishing sepulchres".

Claiming that revelation is diminished or gone though because it does not match that of your expectations leads down a dark and pathetically cliched path:

“Apply this in modern times and you have the so-called reformers. Many budding apostates follow the pattern progressively. They allege love for the gospel and the Church but charge that leaders are a little “off the beam”! Soon they claim that the leaders are making changes and not following the original programs. Next they say that while the gospel and the Church are divine, the leaders are fallen. Up to this time it may be a passive thing, but now it becomes an active resistance and frequently the blooming apostate begins to air his views and to crusade. He is likely now to join groups who are slipping away. He may become a student of the Journal of Discourses and is flattered by the evil one that he knows more about the scriptures and doctrines than the Church leaders who, he says, are now persecuting him. He generally wants all the blessings of the Church; membership, its Priesthood, its temple privileges, and expects them from the leaders of the Church, though at the same time claiming that those same leaders have departed from the path. He now begins to expect persecution and adapts a martyr complex, and when finally excommunication comes he associates himself with other apostates to develop or strengthen cults. At this stage he is likely to claim revelation for himself; revelations from the Lord directing him in his interpretation and his actions. These manifestations are superior to anything from living leaders, he claims.” -Spencer W. Kimball

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

So was the prophecy that the keys would never again be taken from the earth or the church fall again prophecy of the old or prophecy of the new kind?

Was President Kimball’s decision to extend the Priesthood to all worthy males similarly tainted?

Claiming that revelation is diminished or gone though because it does not match that of your expectations leads down a dark and pathetically cliched path:

The "Church", ie the restored gospel will not fail.  The keys were restored for the last time.  Neither of those precludes the Church from going astray at times or acting contrary to God's will in something.  Apostasies can be partial, complete, on one single issue, on a viewpoint, and more.  Nobody claims that there will ever be another great apostasy.  But there will be plenty for the Lord to set right.

As for Pres. Kimball's revelation- we have no idea.  None of us were there, no recorded revelation seems to exist.

But revelation is God's word.  Not a good feeling. If God told Pres. Kimball to do what he did, that was the word of God.  If Pres. Kimball and the apostles "felt it was right", that was not.

Revelation is when God speaks to us.  If we cannot record his words, whether they come to our minds, our spirits,  in vision or dream, or through holy records, then it is not revelation.  If all we get is a feeling, that is not the word of the Lord.