Reconciling the Lucy Walker story

[Danzo]

59 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Emma didn’t know that Joseph married Lucy.  Do you know if she ever read what Lucy wrote or learned what was going on behind her back?  Maybe she avoided reading any of that because it hurt too much while it was happening (him marrying other women) and in the years after he was killed.  

She came to completely deny that he ever even lived polygamy.

 

So on the one hand, we have a written first hand account, and on the other, we have your speculation about what Emma might have thought. 

Originally, this thread was about whether Joseph took advantage of Lucy. Lucy's own words contradict that.

Because Lucy refuses to be the victim, we have to either impeach her (without any evidence) or find a new victim (who never actually said anything about Lucy)

[Darren10]

23 hours ago, DBMormon said:

Knowing the background of the Lucy Walker story (if you don't, I can not emphasize enough the need to understand the story - resources below), I am curious how those who both know the story and who are faithful to the restoration and Church authority answer the following question.

Do you take the position that Joseph deceived Lucy Walker about God commanding him to take her as a plural wife, or do you subscribe to a God whose morality has him commanding a man in a father/daughter dynamic to change his relationship with this 16 year old girl living in his home effectively as his foster daughter into a husband/wife dynamic? I am also open to other perspectives that hold some other ground but wood tool answers will not be acceptable in this post (have faith, God will work it out on the other side, go pray about it and get your own answer knowing people get competing answers)

The question is not how does someone other than yourself come down or arrive at a perspective on this question but rather where do you personally come down on this question. I am deeply hoping that you wont avoid all-together or avoid using the mechanism that you know by the spirit that the Church is true hence you don't concern yourself with such conundrums. Instead what is your personal take on this historical issue.

While this historical story has been largely ignored, I think it is the most important story in all of Mormonism. bigger than the Book of Abraham, bigger than Helen Mar Kimball and Fanny Alger, bigger than first vision accounts, and Race and Priesthood.

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2017/12/premium-lucy-walker-spiritual-experiences/

http://www.yearofpolygamy.com/tag/lucy-walker-smith/

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/23-LucyWalker.htm

http://josephsmithspolygamy.org/plural-wives-overview/lucy-walker/

I say:

1) Have faith

2) God will work it out on the other side

3) Go pray about it and get your own answer

I know this by the Holy Spirit. 

Seriously, I think you need the Holy Spirit in your life in a drastic way. 

Edited December 29, 2017 by Darren10

[Darren10]

11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

You just say that because to you size doesn't matter.

 

Yup, Happy Jack does NOT live in Texas.  

[Darren10]

21 hours ago, Gray said:

I think it was a moral failure, as was the whole polygamy experiment.

There were indeed failings from the “polygamy experiment”, especially since it was a very trying experience for many, especially for women. Also, no doubt polygamy placed the LDS Church in very desperate social circumstances. But, “the whole” experience? Great men and women were forged from polygamy. Brigham Young and Zina Jacobs are prime examples of this. You go ahead and attempt to accomplish what they did and endure even a small portion of their trials. The Snow and Kimball lines were also forged in polygamy. Polygamy was intrumental in influencing generations of great men and women. 

Edited December 29, 2017 by Darren10

[Darren10]

17 hours ago, ALarson said:

True, but she was only 15 years old, correct (I'll double check that too)?  Joseph promised her salvation (and for her family's too).  He was the Prophet and much older than she was.  Have you read all that she has stated regarding this?  

There was a pattern of Joseph doing this (approaching the young house maids who Emma loved as her own daughters).  I doubt anyone here would be defending this type of behavior from any older, married man today....whether it was President Monson, the Prophet or not. 

These are the stories that are disturbing for me and I honestly don't understand anyone being ok with them.  So what if a young teenage girl was persuaded and ended up believing it came from God?  Sorry....but that's how I feel.  I do know that there are some very inspiring stories regarding polygamy (mainly by the women, IMO)....but this is not one of them.  I don't want to discount all of the valiant women in living polygamy involved though.

And, did Emma know anything about this?

ETA:

From one of the links, I see she was 15 when she moved into the Prophets home, but 16 when they married....is that correct?

They are disturbing to me too and thus we come to a point prohibited by DB Mormon: know by the Holy Spirit what is true. Nephi did this when commanded to kill Laban, so why not you and me? Lucy took the matter to the Lord and got and answer, why not you and me? 

Edited December 29, 2017 by Darren10

[Darren10]

9 hours ago, JulieM said:

There is no record in the Bible of God commanding anyone to specifically live polygamy (some Levirate marriages were polygamous).  This has been discussed here numerous times. 

Correct but God did give wives to King David as a reward for his faithfulness. I think that’s close enough. Don’t you? 

[Darren10]

9 hours ago, JulieM said:

Yes, according to Joseph’s revelation, he was.

There’s no record of that in the Bible though.  Only what came from Joseph (as he understood it from God).  That could be awfully convenient for him, I think.

It is awfully convenient if such commandments were removed from records which became part of the Bible. Well, convenient for every other non LDS Christian denomination. 

9 hours ago, JulieM said:

Are you ok that Joseph slept with Emma’s young maids?  I know he called them his wives, so are you ok with him sleeping with teenagers without his wife’s consent or knowledge?

 

No, I’m not OK with that but I am OK with God commanding Joseph Smith taking in extra wives, even in secret. That’s what it boils down to: whether or not it was God’s command. 

9 hours ago, JulieM said:

Joseph claimed that Abraham was commanded (to live polygamy).  There’s no record of God commanding Abraham to practice polygamy.  

In light of my comment regarding wives given by God to King David as a reward for his faithfulness, please reconstruct what you would think of Abraham. You’re a new believer in YHWH and come across Abraham. Upon learning of him first hand, you learn he has  had three wives, with at least two living. What would your impression be of him? Sick man? A pervert? A man of God? A holy man of God? A holy man of God with immorality as a personal weakness? What would it be? 

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by Darren10

[JulieM]

7 hours ago, Danzo said:

So on the one hand, we have a written first hand account, and on the other, we have your speculation about what Emma might have thought. 

Originally, this thread was about whether Joseph took advantage of Lucy. Lucy's own words contradict that.

Because Lucy refuses to be the victim, we have to either impeach her (without any evidence) or find a new victim (who never actually said anything about Lucy)

I never speculated about what “Emma might have thought”.  I simply stated the truth.  Or do you know that Emma read Lucy’s words?

You should read all of Lucy’s words and the writings about what took place.  For me, much of it is disturbing.  For you and others, maybe not.  But it wasn’t all positive as you’re portraying IMO.

Edited December 29, 2017 by JulieM

[Peppermint Patty]

I've struggled with the issue of polygamy my entire adult life.  Prayer, fasting and much pondering have not helped me receive an answer.  I've finally had to find a very big spot on my shelf to put the whole polygamy issue. 

I've personally noticed that this seems to be an issue with more women than men. For many women I know it's more like dealing with being less than in worth.  I've never been able to understand how a loving God could be okay with D&C 132:64 .

I hope and have faith that at some point in my life, or in the next, that polygamy will no longer be a stumbling block for me. 

Some say that humor is the best medicine.  I once watched a stand up comedy routine that went something like this, "It's common for men to refer to their wife as their better half. What if you're a polygamist? Here's Annie, she's my better eight?"

[Bob Crockett]

22 hours ago, DBMormon said:

Knowing the background of the Lucy Walker story (if you don't, I can not emphasize enough the need to understand the story - resources below), I am curious how those who both know the story and who are faithful to the restoration and Church authority answer the following question.

Do you take the position that Joseph deceived Lucy Walker about God commanding him to take her as a plural wife, or do you subscribe to a God whose morality has him commanding a man in a father/daughter dynamic to change his relationship with this 16 year old girl living in his home effectively as his foster daughter into a husband/wife dynamic? I am also open to other perspectives that hold some other ground but wood tool answers will not be acceptable in this post (have faith, God will work it out on the other side, go pray about it and get your own answer knowing people get competing answers)

The question is not how does someone other than yourself come down or arrive at a perspective on this question but rather where do you personally come down on this question. I am deeply hoping that you wont avoid all-together or avoid using the mechanism that you know by the spirit that the Church is true hence you don't concern yourself with such conundrums. Instead what is your personal take on this historical issue.

While this historical story has been largely ignored, I think it is the most important story in all of Mormonism. bigger than the Book of Abraham, bigger than Helen Mar Kimball and Fanny Alger, bigger than first vision accounts, and Race and Priesthood.

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2017/12/premium-lucy-walker-spiritual-experiences/

http://www.yearofpolygamy.com/tag/lucy-walker-smith/

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/23-LucyWalker.htm

http://josephsmithspolygamy.org/plural-wives-overview/lucy-walker/

As I have said in the past:

1.  Do you accept that the Old Testament provides for plural marriage as a divine principle?   If not, I can see your problem if you doubt the revelations of Joseph Smith.  If so, then the mere fact of plural marriage in the 1830s should not disturb you as it has been a divine principle in the past.

2.  Does Lucy's age bother you -- is that your basic issue?  She was of the age of consent.  As I have been reading Eli Chernow's new book on Leonardo Da Vince, I read of many marriages and mistresses who are 13 and 14 years of age.  Many Victorian novels I've read (Queen Victoria post-dated Joseph Smith) refer to marriages and affairs involving girls under 16.

3.  Do you believe that Lucy had no freedom of will?  Often, it seems, critics of the church think that members of the church (those called on missions to leave their family; handcart pioneers who left too late in the season, etc.) have no freedom of will.  For similar reasons I take offense at people who turn their noses up at people involved with Amway, or who are Hassids, as if there is no freedom of will.  Do you think, as a pawnbroker in Washington County, or me as a lawyer in California, you can or I can speak for another's freedom of will?

4.  Do you think the problem with the story is that Lucy was first a member of Joseph Smith's household as some sort of nanny?  Da Vince's "companion" for many years started out as a 10-year-old ward.  Does it just come down to that?  Like Abraham marrying his wife's servant?

Edited December 29, 2017 by Bob Crockett

[JulieM]

5 hours ago, Darren10 said:

Correct but God did give wives to King David as a reward for his faithfulness. I think that’s close enough. Don’t you? 

No.  He didn’t need to accept them nor was he commanded to by God.  I do think God allowed polygamy at times, but did not command it to be lived.

[Darren10]

23 minutes ago, JulieM said:

No.  He didn’t need to accept them nor was he commanded to by God.  I do think God allowed polygamy at times, but did not command it to be lived.

So if God allowed murder at times you'd take issue with King David if he claimed he was "commanded" by God to murder Uriah?

Edited December 29, 2017 by Darren10

[Darren10]

2 hours ago, Peppermint Patty said:

I've struggled with the issue of polygamy my entire adult life.  Prayer, fasting and much pondering have not helped me receive an answer.  I've finally had to find a very big spot on my shelf to put the whole polygamy issue. 

I've personally noticed that this seems to be an issue with more women than men. For many women I know it's more like dealing with being less than in worth.  I've never been able to understand how a loving God could be okay with D&C 132:64 .

I hope and have faith that at some point in my life, or in the next, that polygamy will no longer be a stumbling block for me. 

Some say that humor is the best medicine.  I once watched a stand up comedy routine that went something like this, "It's common for men to refer to their wife as their better half. What if you're a polygamist? Here's Annie, she's my better eight?"

Great post, Peppermint! And, yes, that comedian's line is funny.

[pogi]

11 hours ago, JulieM said:

I believe Prophets make mistakes (now and in the past).  Abraham made mistakes but he didn’t practice polygamy in the manner that Joseph did (that involved the deceit and lies and keeping things from his first wife).  How Joseph chose to live polygamy is puzzling and a huge mistake, IMO.  Why did he need to go after young teenagers behind Emma’s back and go after girls she loved like daughters?  Why go after other member’s wives?  Why couldn’t he have restored the principle of polygamy (if that even needed to be restored) by marrying the older widows or women who had never married that were closer to his own age?  Why use the methods he used to coerce these young girls to marry him?  What 38 year old man wants a 14 year old....and a 15 year old....and a few 16 year old girls ...and .17 year old girls ...and so on...for his wife/wives?

Those are just a few of the many questions that I and others learning about this want to ask.  But honestly, I’ve heard no good answers if anyone answers them at all.  I’ve just put it on a shelf and hope for answers some day (different from what I’ve gotten so far.)

I know that a lot of things don't make sense to you, they don't make much sense to me either.  But my point is that if it is possible to reserve judgment of Abraham, and hold him as a prophet of God despite his polygamy, then why not for Joseph too? You are right, the ways that Abraham and Joseph practiced polygamy were different.  Which one was more moral in their practice from a 21st century perspective?  Lets compare Lucy and Hagar:

• First, Abraham was 87 and Hagar was likely around Lucy's age, which was a typical age for child bearing back then.  When you compare the two, that is a 20 year age gap (Joseph and Lucy) versus around a 70 year age gap (Abraham and Hagar).  Joseph wins that one, big time! 
• Second, Emma didn't know about Lucy, while Sarah condoned Hagar.  Abraham wins that one. 
• Third, what about the most important part of all of this...the young girls themselves?  Lucy was a guest, Hagar was a slave.  Joseph wins that one. 
• Lucy was given a choice, Hagar had no choice in the matter and was forced to bear the child of the husband of her slave owner/Master who was around 70 years older than her.  Joseph wins that one.
• Lucy received a personal conviction and testimony from God before agreeing to polygamy, Hagar was not given the choice.  Joseph wins. 
• Joseph considered Lucy his wife and gave her autonomy and freedom .  Abraham never referred to Hagar as his wife, rather he always referred to her as Sarah's slave, and Sarah always referred to her as Abraham's mistress.  Joseph wins that one.    

When you consider the element of slavery, that it was forced sex and child birth with an old wrinkly man, I don't think that you could say that Abraham had the upper hand as far as 21st century morals go.  Not by a long shot.  Think about it, who would you rather be in those two scenarios, Hagar or Lucy? 

So, if Abraham was a prophet despite being less moral than Joseph from a 21 century perspective, then how can you fairly judge Joseph as less of a prophet then Abraham?

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by pogi

[CV75]

17 hours ago, DBMormon said:

or I frame everything in black and white dualistic thinking so as to walk people out of their own.

Are you saying you are merely playing a role? Instead of being the blind guide leading the blind, impersonating the blind to lead them?

[Tacenda]

7 hours ago, Darren10 said:

There were indeed failings from the “polygamy experiment”, especially since it was a very trying experience for many, especially for women. Also, no doubt polygamy placed the LDS Church in very desperate social circumstances. But, “the whole” experience? Great men and women were forged from polygamy. Brigham Young and Zina Jacobs are prime examples of this. You go ahead and attempt to accomplish what they did and endure even a small portion of their trials. The Snow and Kimball lines were also forged in polygamy. Polygamy was intrumental in influencing generations of great men and women. 

bold mine..

Huh! I think you are looking at this picture wrong. This is what polygamy led to also....emphasis on also because I don't want to hear that so and so comes from polygamy or this and that, because I too came from polygamists. 

http://fox13now.com/2017/12/27/new-lawsuit-accuses-flds-church-leaders-of-ritualistic-sex-abuse/

Edited December 29, 2017 by Tacenda

[Darren10]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

bold mine..

Huh! I think you are looking at this picture wrong. This is what polygamy led to also....emphasis on also because I don't want to hear that so and so comes from polygamy or this and that, because I too came from polygamists. 

http://fox13now.com/2017/12/27/new-lawsuit-accuses-flds-church-leaders-of-ritualistic-sex-abuse/

That's bad but I'll make my own bold statement and say that sex abused resulting from a a polygamous influence s nothing compared to sex abuse influenced by our modern-aged acceptance that marriage is not essential for families.

Now, directly to your link, anyone practicing polygamy today are not doing so according to the direction from the Lord. When man does that the result is often negative. Very negative in this case.

[cinepro]

2 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

As I have said in the past:

1.  Do you accept that the Old Testament provides for plural marriage as a divine principle?   If not, I can see your problem if you doubt the revelations of Joseph Smith.  If so, then the mere fact of plural marriage in the 1830s should not disturb you as it has been a divine principle in the past.

2.  Does Lucy's age bother you -- is that your basic issue?  She was of the age of consent.  As I have been reading Eli Chernow's new book on Leonardo Da Vince, I read of many marriages and mistresses who are 13 and 14 years of age.  Many Victorian novels I've read (Queen Victoria post-dated Joseph Smith) refer to marriages and affairs involving girls under 16.

3.  Do you believe that Lucy had no freedom of will?  Often, it seems, critics of the church think that members of the church (those called on missions to leave their family; handcart pioneers who left too late in the season, etc.) have no freedom of will.  For similar reasons I take offense at people who turn their noses up at people involved with Amway, or who are Hassids, as if there is no freedom of will.  Do you think, as a pawnbroker in Washington County, or me as a lawyer in California, you can or I can speak for another's freedom of will?

4.  Do you think the problem with the story is that Lucy was first a member of Joseph Smith's household as some sort of nanny?  Da Vince's "companion" for many years started out as a 10-year-old ward.  Does it just come down to that?  Like Abraham marrying his wife's servant?

I can't speak for anyone else, but these could be the answers to your questions as seen by those who object to the Lucy Walker situation:

1. No.

2. Yes.  And we don't consider Leonardo Da Vinci to be inspired by God either.

3. Once someone convinces other people that they speak for God, they have quite a bit of control over their actions (as history has shown, they may even control whether the other people choose to live or not).  The degree of this control seems based on the degree to which the person believes the prophet speaks for God.  As Nancy Rigdon and the home teaching stats in my ward would indicate, there can be a great variation in the degree to which people believe someone is speaking for God.  But the more someone believes Joseph Smith was speaking for God, the less "free will" they have.  As long as Joseph was speaking for God, there isn't a problem (and it's actually a good thing).  But if he wasn't...

4. As you point out, there isn't a rule that men can't want to secretly marry the young (or old) girls that come to live with them as wards or household help without their first wife's knowledge.  It would just be really great if they resisted that impulse.

Edited December 29, 2017 by cinepro

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

bold mine..

Huh! I think you are looking at this picture wrong. This is what polygamy led to also....emphasis on also because I don't want to hear that so and so comes from polygamy or this and that, because I too came from polygamists. 

http://fox13now.com/2017/12/27/new-lawsuit-accuses-flds-church-leaders-of-ritualistic-sex-abuse/

Is that what polygamy leads to or is it what the existence of unrighteous men lead to?  

I mean, I could put up a link about some Christian doing horrible things in the name of God and say "this is also what Christianity leads to" but it wouldn't mean anything in regards to whether or not Jesus is the Christ and following Him is of God, right?

[Danzo]

5 hours ago, JulieM said:

I never speculated about what “Emma might have thought”.  I simply stated the truth.  Or do you know that Emma read Lucy’s words?

You should read all of Lucy’s words and the writings about what took place.  For me, much of it is disturbing.  For you and others, maybe not.  But it wasn’t all positive as you’re portraying IMO.

I realize that it is disturbing to you.  I get that.   And that is what this is about.  Its about what is disturbing to you.  You are the victim here, not Lucy.

From Lucy's writings as a mature adult, she felt it was the right thing to do.  

The Actors in this play all seemed to have worked it out.  The one who hasn't is you.

The victim here is you.

You will have to work that out on your own, just like Lucy did.  I am not going to be able to say something to you to make you feel better about it.  

 

 

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

bold mine..

Huh! I think you are looking at this picture wrong. This is what polygamy led to also....emphasis on also because I don't want to hear that so and so comes from polygamy or this and that, because I too came from polygamists. 

http://fox13now.com/2017/12/27/new-lawsuit-accuses-flds-church-leaders-of-ritualistic-sex-abuse/

There are righteous polygamists and unrighteous polygamists.
There are righteous monogamists and unrighteous monogamists.
There are righteous Christians and unrighteous Christians.

People are people.  They come in good and bad, regardless of the things they choose to abuse.  Warren Jeffs abuses the principle of Plural Marriage.  That makes him bad, not the principle.
Westboro Baptist abuses the name of Christ.  That makes them bad, not Christianity.

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, Darren10 said:

There were indeed failings from the “polygamy experiment”, especially since it was a very trying experience for many, especially for women. Also, no doubt polygamy placed the LDS Church in very desperate social circumstances. But, “the whole” experience? Great men and women were forged from polygamy. Brigham Young and Zina Jacobs are prime examples of this. You go ahead and attempt to accomplish what they did and endure even a small portion of their trials. The Snow and Kimball lines were also forged in polygamy. Polygamy was intrumental in influencing generations of great men and women. 

Polygamy successfully fulfilled it’s purpose...to raise seed to the Lord.

[Bernard Gui]

18 hours ago, JulieM said:

There is no record in the Bible of God commanding anyone to specifically live polygamy (some Levirate marriages were polygamous).  This has been discussed here numerous times. 

It’s acomodated in the Law.

Deut 21 15 If a man has two wives, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons but the firstborn is the son of the wife he does not love, 16 when he wills his property to his sons, he must not give the rights of the firstborn to the son of the wife he loves in preference to his actual firstborn, the son of the wife he does not love. 17 He must acknowledge the son of his unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double share of all he has. That son is the first sign of his father’s strength. The right of the firstborn belongs to him.

[JulieM]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

I realize that it is disturbing to you.  I get that.   And that is what this is about.  Its about what is disturbing to you.  You are the victim here, not Lucy.

From Lucy's writings as a mature adult, she felt it was the right thing to do.  

The Actors in this play all seemed to have worked it out.  The one who hasn't is you.

The victim here is you.

Sorry,  but your logic here is pretty flawed, IMO.

I’m not a victim here (such a strange thing for you to conclude).  I’m an active member of the church who has some questions and doubts about how polygamy was lived by Joseph and others.  I think the women involved were valiant and were heroes (the great majority of them).

Please don't attempt to analyze me.  So weird.

Polygamy is on my shelf for more clarity and answers.  That’s all.  This is a discussion forum where this is an open topic to discuss, ask questions and give our opinions.  I have every right to be a part of the discussion and voice my concerns.

That Lucy ended up being ok with marrying Joseph is good.  But for me that doesn’t make all that Joseph was doing behind Emma’s back (with many of her housemaids) ok for me.  He repeatedly propositioned them without her knowledge and then convinced them to marry and sleep with him.  If you’re ok with that, I won’t criticize you.  But I disagree with you and that’s ok too.

Edited December 29, 2017 by JulieM

[JulieM]

40 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

It’s acomodated in the Law.

Deut 21 15 If a man has two wives, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons but the firstborn is the son of the wife he does not love, 16 when he wills his property to his sons, he must not give the rights of the firstborn to the son of the wife he loves in preference to his actual firstborn, the son of the wife he does not love. 17 He must acknowledge the son of his unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double share of all he has. That son is the first sign of his father’s strength. The right of the firstborn belongs to him.

Still no commandment to specifically live polygamy.   Where is polygamy commanded there?

Edited December 29, 2017 by JulieM