Reconciling the Lucy Walker story

[DBMormon]

Knowing the background of the Lucy Walker story (if you don't, I can not emphasize enough the need to understand the story - resources below), I am curious how those who both know the story and who are faithful to the restoration and Church authority answer the following question.

Do you take the position that Joseph deceived Lucy Walker about God commanding him to take her as a plural wife, or do you subscribe to a God whose morality has him commanding a man in a father/daughter dynamic to change his relationship with this 16 year old girl living in his home effectively as his foster daughter into a husband/wife dynamic? I am also open to other perspectives that hold some other ground but wood tool answers will not be acceptable in this post (have faith, God will work it out on the other side, go pray about it and get your own answer knowing people get competing answers)

The question is not how does someone other than yourself come down or arrive at a perspective on this question but rather where do you personally come down on this question. I am deeply hoping that you wont avoid all-together or avoid using the mechanism that you know by the spirit that the Church is true hence you don't concern yourself with such conundrums. Instead what is your personal take on this historical issue.

While this historical story has been largely ignored, I think it is the most important story in all of Mormonism. bigger than the Book of Abraham, bigger than Helen Mar Kimball and Fanny Alger, bigger than first vision accounts, and Race and Priesthood.

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2017/12/premium-lucy-walker-spiritual-experiences/

http://www.yearofpolygamy.com/tag/lucy-walker-smith/

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/23-LucyWalker.htm

http://josephsmithspolygamy.org/plural-wives-overview/lucy-walker/

Edited December 28, 2017 by DBMormon

[JLHPROF]

7 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

Knowing the background of the Lucy Walker story (if you don't, I can not emphasize enough the need to understand the story - resources below), I am curious how those who both know the story and who are faithful to the restoration and Church authority answer the following question.

Do you take the position that Joseph deceived Lucy Walker about God commanding him to take her as a plural wife, or do you subscribe to a God whose morality has him commanding a man in a father/daughter dynamic to change his relationship with this 16 year old girl living in his home effectively as his foster daughter into a husband/wife dynamic? I am also open to other perspectives that hold some other ground but wood tool answers will not be acceptable in this post (have faith, God will work it out on the other side, go pray about it and get your own answer knowing people get competing answers)

The question is not how does someone other than yourself come down or arrive at a perspective on this question but rather where do you personally come down on this question. I am deeply hoping that you wont avoid all-together or avoid using the mechanism that you know by the spirit that the Church is true hence you don't concern yourself with such conundrums. Instead what is your personal take on this historical issue.

My personal take is that God commanded Joseph to take Lucy as wife, and as she herself records a second witness was received by her "received a powerful and irristable testimony of the truth of the mariage covenant called 'Celestial or plural mariage'.
No, I don't believe Joseph deceived Lucy at all, since she received the same witness from God.

[HappyJackWagon]

17 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

 While this historical story has been largely ignored, I think it is the most important story in all of Mormonism. bigger than the Book of Abraham, bigger than Helen Mar Kimball and Fanny Alger, bigger than first vision accounts, and Race and Priesthood.

 

That's BIG!

I get why this would be an important issue but why do you think it's BIGGER than those other issues?

[pogi]

18 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

...I think it is the most important story in all of Mormonism.

Wow!

If that is your treasure, I can only imagine where your heart is.

[DBMormon]

19 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

My personal take is that God commanded Joseph to take Lucy as wife, and as she herself records a second witness was received by her "received a powerful and irristable testimony of the truth of the mariage covenant called 'Celestial or plural mariage'.
No, I don't believe Joseph deceived Lucy at all, since she received the same witness from God.

you seemed to avoid the question.  So you are saying that it indeed was God commanding Joseph to take his "intents and purposes"  foster daughter as his wife?  and you have no issue with God's morality on such?

Edited December 28, 2017 by DBMormon

[hope_for_things]

18 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

Knowing the background of the Lucy Walker story (if you don't, I can not emphasize enough the need to understand the story - resources below), I am curious how those who both know the story and who are faithful to the restoration and Church authority answer the following question.

Do you take the position that Joseph deceived Lucy Walker about God commanding him to take her as a plural wife, or do you subscribe to a God whose morality has him commanding a man in a father/daughter dynamic to change his relationship with this 16 year old girl living in his home effectively as his foster daughter into a husband/wife dynamic? I am also open to other perspectives that hold some other ground but wood tool answers will not be acceptable in this post (have faith, God will work it out on the other side, go pray about it and get your own answer knowing people get competing answers)

The question is not how does someone other than yourself come down or arrive at a perspective on this question but rather where do you personally come down on this question. I am deeply hoping that you wont avoid all-together or avoid using the mechanism that you know by the spirit that the Church is true hence you don't concern yourself with such conundrums. Instead what is your personal take on this historical issue.

While this historical story has been largely ignored, I think it is the most important story in all of Mormonism. bigger than the Book of Abraham, bigger than Helen Mar Kimball and Fanny Alger, bigger than first vision accounts, and Race and Priesthood.

The Lucy Walker story is very much in the same vein as other of Joseph's polygamous marriages.  Young girls that were maids or living with the Smiths or had associations with the Smiths on a personal and intimate level.  I see this as just another example of the problematic nature of the polygamy that Joseph was practicing.  I was surprised to learn that her parents were gone (mother died and father on a mission) when Joseph approached her for marriage, that is probably one of the most disturbing aspects of this story to me.  

But, why do you think this is the most important story in Mormonism?  Can you elaborate on this?  I see this just as another example of the morally problematic history around Joseph Smith's polygamy, but I don't see it as extraordinary.  To me it just seems like more evidence of the same disturbing behavior from what I see.  

[JLHPROF]

Just now, DBMormon said:

you seemed to avoid the question.  So you are saying that it indeed was God commanding Joseph to take his "for all intensive purposes" foster daughter as his wife?  and you have no issue with God's morality on such?

Yes, and yes.
I have no issue with this whatsoever.

[DBMormon]

13 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

That's BIG!

I get why this would be an important issue but why do you think it's BIGGER than those other issues?

because it feels you must either deal with God's morality being very different and in some ways most folks eyes as perhaps even immoral than you had thought or you must wrestle with the fallibility of prophet in very serious ways

Edited December 28, 2017 by DBMormon

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

because it feels you must either deal with God's morality being very different in an most folks eyes as perhaps even immoral than you had thought or you must wrestle with the fallibility of prophet in very serious ways

I fail to see the moral outrage here.
Lucy stayed with Joseph while her Father was on a mission.  She was not related by blood, she was not adopted, Joseph requested her brother's permission, and she was 17 (marriageable age).
And when her father returned he also gave his blessing.

I think you are grasping at straws to find offense where nobody involved had an issue (beyond Lucy seeking a witness of the principle first).

Edited December 28, 2017 by JLHPROF

[DBMormon]

Just now, JLHPROF said:

I fail to see the moral outrage here.
Lucy stayed with Joseph while her Father was on a mission.  She was not related by blood, she was not adopted, Joseph requested her brother's permission.
And when her father returned he also gave his blessing.

I think you are grasping at straws to find offense where nobody involved had an issue (beyond Lucy seeking a witness of the principle first).

Joseph promised her father he would take care of the walker kids as his own children and he referred to them as his daughters in public.

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

Joseph promised her father he would take care of the walker kids as his own children and he referred to them as his daughters in public.

And?
This is true.  He did care for and provide for them.  And he did refer to them as foster daughters.
But they weren't his daughters, neither by blood or adoption.  They were wards at best.
This doesn't even rise to the Woody Allen level of offense.  Or Abraham and Sarah.  Or possibly even Heavenly Father and Mary.

I find nothing offensive in Joseph's marriage to Lucy.

[Glenn101]

9 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

Do you take the position that Joseph deceived Lucy Walker about God commanding him to take her as a plural wife

I prefer to accept Lucy's account of the situation. Here is an excerpt of part of her words:

"

Oh, how earnestly I prayed for these words to be fulfilled. It was near dawn after another sleepless night when my room was lighted up by a heavenly influence. To me it was, in comparison, like the brilliant sun bursting through the darkest cloud. The words of the Prophet were indeed fulfilled. My soul was filled with a calm, sweet peace that “I never knew.” Supreme happiness took possession of me, and I received a powerful and irresistible testimony of the truth of plural marriage, which has been like an anchor to the soul through all the trials of life. I felt that I must go out into the morning air and give vent to the joy and gratitude that filled my soul. As I descended the stairs, President Smith opened the door below, took me by the hand and said: “Thank God, you have the testimony. I too have prayed.” He led me to a chair, placed his hands upon my head, and blessed me with every blessing my heart could possibly desire.

The first day of May, 1843, I consented to become the Prophet’s wife, and was sealed to him for time and all eternity, at his own house by Elder William Clayton."

The fuller account can be found here, with references.

At this point it does not matter what anyone thinks other than God. One can accept or reject Lucy's testimony as he or she pleases. But that is what anyone has left right now of the situation, Lucy's words that she obtained a revelation that plural marriage is a correct principle. I do not recall anyone saying that have had a revelation saying that Lucy did not have a revelation....

There were many others who received commandments to practice plural marriage and the initial reaction was pretty much the same. They recoiled, shrank from that idea. Some rejected it, but others (men and women) prayed and received an affirmation that the principle is correct.

I accept that Joseph Smith was a prophet as did Lucy Walker and the others who received a testimony of plural marriage. I have not asked for nor received such a testimony as I am not being asked to participate right now.

What I do also believe is that we have a wise, kind, benevolent Father in Heaven that will never make us participate in any institution, etc. against our will, but that what He does have in store for us is beyond our comprehension to comprehend. According to the Doctrine and Covenants, the glory of even the Telestial Kingdom surpasses all understanding, so it follows that the Terrestrial and Celestial Kingdoms are even further beyond what we can understand.

So an argument against Lucy's experience is one that goes against her own words, beliefs, and testimony. Personal feelings.

Glenn

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, DBMormon said:

Do you take the position that Joseph deceived Lucy Walker about God commanding him to take her as a plural wife, or do you subscribe to a God whose morality has him commanding a man in a father/daughter dynamic to change his relationship with this 16 year old girl living in his home effectively as his foster daughter into a husband/wife dynamic?

Are these the only choices one gets?

[DBMormon]

15 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Are these the only choices one gets?

feel free to submit others

[Gray]

I think it was a moral failure, as was the whole polygamy experiment.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, DBMormon said:

Knowing the background of the Lucy Walker story (if you don't, I can not emphasize enough the need to understand the story - resources below), I am curious how those who both know the story and who are faithful to the restoration and Church authority answer the following question.

Do you take the position that Joseph deceived Lucy Walker about God commanding him to take her as a plural wife, or do you subscribe to a God whose morality has him commanding a man in a father/daughter dynamic to change his relationship with this 16 year old girl living in his home effectively as his foster daughter into a husband/wife dynamic? I am also open to other perspectives that hold some other ground but wood tool answers will not be acceptable in this post (have faith, God will work it out on the other side, go pray about it and get your own answer knowing people get competing answers)

The question is not how does someone other than yourself come down or arrive at a perspective on this question but rather where do you personally come down on this question. I am deeply hoping that you wont avoid all-together or avoid using the mechanism that you know by the spirit that the Church is true hence you don't concern yourself with such conundrums. Instead what is your personal take on this historical issue.

While this historical story has been largely ignored, I think it is the most important story in all of Mormonism. bigger than the Book of Abraham, bigger than Helen Mar Kimball and Fanny Alger, bigger than first vision accounts, and Race and Priesthood.

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/…/premium-lucy-walk…/

http://www.yearofpolygamy.com/tag/lucy-walker-smith/

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/23-LucyWalker.htm

http://josephsmithspolygamy.org/plural-wives-o…/lucy-walker/

I think it is moral for God to command.

What is your opinion, according to the mores of the mid-19^th century and scripture, of the morality of a man changing his relationship with a 16-year-old from foster daughter (did they have those back then -- how about non-related, dependent household member?) to wife? I don't see much of a problem.

I suppose the situation and God can be cast in an immoral light, but considering all the evidence I have at my disposal, I think the morality of God commanding this marriage was on firm footing.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

That's BIG!

I get why this would be an important issue but why do you think it's BIGGER than those other issues?

You just say that because to you size doesn't matter.

 

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, DBMormon said:

you seemed to avoid the question.  So you are saying that it indeed was God commanding Joseph to take his "intents and purposes"  foster daughter as his wife?  and you have no issue with God's morality on such?

You need another paradigm. You are so black and white with no ability to nuance anything.

Joseph was a human male.

He was a sinner just like we all are. He was a religious genius that had incredible intellectual and spiritual abilities to create a new paradigm for interaction with Christ.

You're really need to learn that even prophets are fallible human beings. And let go of all this silliness.

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 hours ago, DBMormon said:

because it feels you must either deal with God's morality being very different and in some ways most folks eyes as perhaps even immoral than you had thought ...

I think you may be projecting here. I don't find God's behaviour in this situation either (a) immoral or (b) different to what I expect. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

I prefer to accept Lucy's account of the situation.

Mate, you're violating the OP's rules. Personal manifestations from God apparently don't address the outrage we're supposed to be feeling.

[HappyJackWagon]

4 hours ago, DBMormon said:

because it feels you must either deal with God's morality being very different and in some ways most folks eyes as perhaps even immoral than you had thought or you must wrestle with the fallibility of prophet in very serious ways

I get that, but this is only another example of the abuses of power and authority that were seem pretty common to Joseph's polygamy practices. Joseph was wrong, possibly predatory in his pursuit of these young girls, especially those who were in his care, but this is just another example of his moral failings. This seems like typical Joseph behavior.

[Hamba Tuhan]

18 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Joseph was wrong, possibly predatory in his pursuit of these young girls, especially those who were in his care, but this is just another example of his moral failings.

That certainly is one option ... though only if you are willing to completely deny the young girl in question her own voice. And agency.

[Danzo]

47 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

That certainly is one option ... though only if you are willing to completely deny the young girl in question her own voice. And agency.

Only the male opinion (and only of a male who is over 100 years removed from the situation) counts.

Don't you know that DB Mormon doesn't accept  what the woman thinks.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Danzo

[Jeanne]

I understand that we are talking about a different time..but I could never imagine my father wanting to marry his Lamanite foster daughter..

[Danzo]

2 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I understand that we are talking about a different time..but I could never imagine my father wanting to marry his Lamanite foster daughter..

What about Lucy?  do you accept her account of what happened?