Reconciling the Lucy Walker story

[Duncan]

7 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Or a commandment to return and give him the child she was carrying.  Polygamy was not mentioned was it?  Did she have to stay and be his wife after she gave him the child?  

Abraham still was not commanded to live polygamy as Joseph claimed.

(That was recorded in the Bible.)

for what purpose? God could have easily have told her to continue going

what do you make of the others that Joseph said were commanded or justified to live polygamy, in DC 132 like David, Solomon et al. was it all just some hoax? I'll save you some time, We know Joseph Smith could have children but he only had kids with Emma, if it was purely sexual why not have kids with all these other women? some can't have kids but everyone he was sealed to? seems like a stretch.

[Glenn101]

1 hour ago, JulieM said:

Yes, according to Joseph’s revelation, he was.

There’s no record of that in the Bible though.  Only what came from Joseph (as he understood it from God).  That could be awfully convenient for him, I think.

Well, there is also the story of King David as he was being chastised by Nathan the prophet for murdering Uriah the Hittite and taking Uriah's wife.

"7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
8 And I gave thee thy master’s house, and thy master’s wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things."

We can play semantic word games all we wish but that is strong evidence that God sanctioned polygamy in the Old Testament. As has been noted, there were Levirate marriages that were polygamous by commandment. The Mosaic law also specifically allowed plural marriage and gave laws concerning the treatment of plural wives.  It was still being practiced during the time of Christ.

Glenn

[Danzo]

2 hours ago, omni said:

Do you give that same benefit of doubt to the teenage brides from the numerous polygamous offshoots?  Undoubtedly, many of them had similar spiritual experiences confirming their decision to marry their much older husbands.

What about situations in which you have a student in romantic relationship with his/her teacher?  If one doesn't condone this relationship are they disrespecting or dismissing the child's belief that they are in love?

Why don't we stick to talking about Lucy.   She was an adult, she was capable of speaking for herself.

[Danzo]

2 hours ago, DBMormon said:

i don't believe any accounts of Abraham to be a literal historical telling of a mythological figure

Very convenient of you to disbelieve in anything you don't agree with.

[Glenn101]

9 hours ago, DBMormon said:

do you subscribe to a God whose morality has him commanding a man in a father/daughter dynamic to change his relationship with this 16 year old girl living in his home effectively as his foster daughter into a husband/wife dynamic?

Since it was not an actual father/daughter relationship, what was immoral about it? But I fear that we really have no common ground on this because your seem to reject parts of the Bible that LDS accept. ("i don't believe any accounts of Abraham to be a literal historical telling of a mythological figure.") If you can just throw out a section of scripture that does not support your thesis you create a shifting sand basis for a debate. It would be much better if you would at least try to deal with the LDS scriptures from our perspective and attempt to make your points from them. After all the Bible is the basis for our ideas on morality.

Glenn

[c.callow]

In all of the talk of Joseph Smith's polygamy there is one thing that is almost never mentioned, and that is———

Joseph Smith himself is not on record explaining himself in regards to polygamy.

There is of course sec. 132, but that is a revelation. Joseph did not say a word about his motivations or explain himself in regards to polygamy in any first person account. What we have are people who said that Joseph said this or Joseph said that, and this is very different.

For what took place between Lucy Walker and Joseph Smith, we have Lucy’s account (which, by the way, is a faithful account i.e. she remained faithful and true to her testimony to the end of her life), given many years after the event. But we don’t have any account from Joseph himself.

How might our understanding of polygamy look if Joseph had explained himself?

[c.callow]

9 hours ago, DBMormon said:

Knowing the background of the Lucy Walker story (if you don't, I can not emphasize enough the need to understand the story - resources below), I am curious how those who both know the story and who are faithful to the restoration and Church authority answer the following question.

Do you take the position that Joseph deceived Lucy Walker about God commanding him to take her as a plural wife, or do you subscribe to a God whose morality has him commanding a man in a father/daughter dynamic to change his relationship with this 16 year old girl living in his home effectively as his foster daughter into a husband/wife dynamic? I am also open to other perspectives that hold some other ground but wood tool answers will not be acceptable in this post (have faith, God will work it out on the other side, go pray about it and get your own answer knowing people get competing answers)

The question is not how does someone other than yourself come down or arrive at a perspective on this question but rather where do you personally come down on this question. I am deeply hoping that you wont avoid all-together or avoid using the mechanism that you know by the spirit that the Church is true hence you don't concern yourself with such conundrums. Instead what is your personal take on this historical issue.

While this historical story has been largely ignored, I think it is the most important story in all of Mormonism. bigger than the Book of Abraham, bigger than Helen Mar Kimball and Fanny Alger, bigger than first vision accounts, and Race and Priesthood.

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2017/12/premium-lucy-walker-spiritual-experiences/

http://www.yearofpolygamy.com/tag/lucy-walker-smith/

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/23-LucyWalker.htm

http://josephsmithspolygamy.org/plural-wives-overview/lucy-walker/

You said, "While this historical story has been largely ignored, I think it is the most important story in all of Mormonism. bigger than the Book of Abraham, bigger than Helen Mar Kimball and Fanny Alger, bigger than first vision accounts, and Race and Priesthood."

Am I the only one who detects a certain "moral vanity" in the positions that anti- and ex-Mormons assume when they talk about JS's polygamy? And 99% of these anti- and ex-Mormons who are making these judgements are not even qualified to evaluate history in the first place (nor am I, I will admit); in fact most of them, judging from their writings, posts, etc., are uneducated.

(I have no wish to offend, just making an observation.)

 

 

[sunstoned]

5 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I get that, but this is only another example of the abuses of power and authority that were seem pretty common to Joseph's polygamy practices. Joseph was wrong, possibly predatory in his pursuit of these young girls, especially those who were in his care, but this is just another example of his moral failings. This seems like typical Joseph behavior.

Let's not forget the lies and secrecy that surrounded JS's practice of polygamy.    I personally believe that god does not operate in the shadows. 

[sunstoned]

4 hours ago, Danzo said:

Do you believe god deceived Lucy?

Does her opinion matter?

How about Joseph's legal wife, Emma.  Does her opinion matter?

[sunstoned]

2 hours ago, JulieM said:

Joseph and Emma introduced Lucy as their “daughter” to others.  No one finds this entire episode disturbing.  What if you heard of someone doing this now?  I’m not sure how anyone can believe this Ewas sanctioned by God.

I believe that most, if not all people (who are not heavenly invested in the traditional narratives of the church) would find this extremely disturbing.  That is why we have laws to prevent such abuse from happening.  We have them now, and we had them back in 1830.

[Duncan]

38 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

I believe that most, if not all people (who are not heavenly invested in the traditional narratives of the church) would find this extremely disturbing.  That is why we have laws to prevent such abuse from happening.  We have them now, and we had them back in 1830.

what were the laws back then? I don't know anything about about pre civil war American law, and law is different from ethics, what may be illegal might be ethical and what might be unethical might be legal

Edited December 29, 2017 by Duncan

[pogi]

3 hours ago, JulieM said:

Are you ok that Joseph slept with Emma’s young maids?  I know he called them his wives, so are you ok with him sleeping with teenagers without his wife’s consent or knowledge?

Again it's not really much different from the Abraham scenario.  The only part that bothers me is that Emma did not give her consent first, as required in the D&C.  I think that Joseph made a big mistake there.  What does that mean?  It means that Joseph made a BIG mistake.  Period.  It doesn't mean anything else.   

Lets say that you and DBMormon are right though.  Lets say that polygamy was not condoned of God...not for Joseph, not for Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, nor Solomon.  By that same and equal judgment, do you also reject Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, and Solomon as patriarchs and prophets of God because of their polygamy?

One Christian source agrees with you that God did not condone the polygamy of the patriarchs, but they also acknowledge that God still blessed them.  They acknowledge that the prophets were not perfect and "were blessed in spite of their imperfections".  God did not remove the mantle of prophet from them for their polygamy, nor for their accounts of "lies and deceit" in the Bible.  What Bible believing Christian could judge Joseph Smith as a false prophet because of polygamy or deceit, while justifying (as God did) the role of the prophet Abraham and the other patriarchs, despite their polygamy and deceits?  In all fairness and intellectual honesty...you can't.

       

Edited December 29, 2017 by pogi

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, sunstoned said:

How about Joseph's legal wife, Emma.  Does her opinion matter?

She already gave her opinion by rescinding her permission for the Patridge sisters.  Once she rejected the law she had no further say in Joseph's practice of it. She wasn't even sealed to him at that time.

Lucy accepted and had testimony of an eternal law of marriage, a higher law.  She was sealed to Joseph before Emma was.  From a gospel perspective at that point Lucy was more Joseph's wife in the eyes of God than Emma was, since God had joined Joseph and Lucy by his authority but mortal law and mere man had joined Emma and Joseph.

Edited December 29, 2017 by JLHPROF

[JulieM]

48 minutes ago, pogi said:

Again it's not really much different from the Abraham scenario.  The only part that bothers me is that Emma did not give her consent first, as required in the D&C.  I think that Joseph made a big mistake there.  What does that mean?  It means that Joseph made a BIG mistake.  Period.  It doesn't mean anything else.   

Lets say that you and DBMormon are right though.  Lets say that polygamy was not condoned of God...not for Joseph, not for Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, nor Solomon.  By that same and equal judgment, do you also reject Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, and Solomon as patriarchs and prophets of God because of their polygamy?

One Christian source agrees with you that God did not condone the polygamy of the patriarchs, but they also acknowledge that God still blessed them.  They acknowledge that the prophets were not perfect and "were blessed in spite of their imperfections".  God did not remove the mantle of prophet from them for their polygamy, nor for their accounts of "lies and deceit" in the Bible.  What Bible believing Christian could judge Joseph Smith as a false prophet because of polygamy or deceit, while justifying (as God did) the role of the prophet Abraham and the other patriarchs, despite their polygamy and deceits?  In all fairness and intellectual honesty...you can't.

I believe Prophets make mistakes (now and in the past).  Abraham made mistakes but he didn’t practice polygamy in the manner that Joseph did (that involved the deceit and lies and keeping things from his first wife).  How Joseph chose to live polygamy is puzzling and a huge mistake, IMO.  Why did he need to go after young teenagers behind Emma’s back and go after girls she loved like daughters?  Why go after other member’s wives?  Why couldn’t he have restored the principle of polygamy (if that even needed to be restored) by marrying the older widows or women who had never married that were closer to his own age?  Why use the methods he used to coerce these young girls to marry him?  What 38 year old man wants a 14 year old....and a 15 year old....and a few 16 year old girls ...and .17 year old girls ...and so on...for his wife/wives?

Those are just a few of the many questions that I and others learning about this want to ask.  But honestly, I’ve heard no good answers if anyone answers them at all.  I’ve just put it on a shelf and hope for answers some day (different from what I’ve gotten so far.)

Edited December 29, 2017 by JulieM

[ttribe]

21 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

She already gave her opinion by rescinding her permission for the Patridge sisters.  Once she rejected the law she had no further say in Joseph's practice of it. She wasn't even sealed to him at that time.

Lucy accepted and had testimony of an eternal law of marriage, a higher law.  She was sealed to Joseph before Emma was.  From a gospel perspective at that point Lucy was more Joseph's wife in the eyes of God than Emma was, since God had joined Joseph and Lucy by his authority but mortal law and mere man had joined Emma and Joseph.

This may be one of the most heartless summaries of this situation that I've ever seen.

[sarcasm]Well done.[/sarcasm]

[Duncan]

4 minutes ago, JulieM said:

I believe Prophets make mistakes (now and in the past).  Abraham made mistakes but he didn’t practice polygamy in the manner that Joseph did (that involved the deceit and lies and keeping things from his first wife).  How Joseph chose to live polygamy is puzzling and a huge mistake, IMO.  Why did he need to go after young teenagers behind Emma’s back and go after girls she loved like daughters?  Why go after other member’s wives?  Why couldn’t he have restored the principle of polygamy (if that even needed to be restored) by marrying the older widows or women who had never married that were closer to his own age?  Why use the methods he used to coerce these young girls to marry him?  What 38 year old man wants a 14 year old....and a 15 year old....and a few 16 year old girls ...and .17 year old girls ...and so on...for his wife/wives?

Those are just a few of the many questions that I and others learning about this want to ask.  But honestly, I’ve heard no good answers if anyone answers them at all.  I’ve just put it on a shelf and hope for answers some day (different from what I’ve gotten so far.)

welcome to the world of worry about your own life and those who live today, we have cookies

Edited December 29, 2017 by Duncan

[JLHPROF]

30 minutes ago, ttribe said:

This may be one of the most heartless summaries of this situation that I've ever seen.

[sarcasm]Well done.[/sarcasm]

Thanks!  I try.  

It's not heartless to acknowledge God's laws and obedience to them are at least equal to, and probably more important than, the feelings of those involved.  

There will be much weeping and wailing from those who choose to reject a law of God.  Those feelings won't change anything.  Obedience is the first law of heaven.

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by JLHPROF

[JulieM]

27 minutes ago, Duncan said:

welcome to the world of worry about your own life and those who live today, we have cookies

I have to love you, Duncan 

You add so much to this board!!! Thanks

Edited December 29, 2017 by JulieM

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, sunstoned said:

Let's not forget the lies and secrecy that surrounded JS's practice of polygamy.    I personally believe that god does not operate in the shadows. 

ditto

[Glenn101]

46 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Those are just a few of the many questions that I and others learning about this want to ask.  But honestly, I’ve heard no good answers if anyone answers them at all.  I’ve just put it on a shelf and hope for answers some day (different from what I’ve gotten so far.)

Julie, that is where I am on many things that bother me in the Bible also. I have put them on a shelf because with every question I always come back to the one really powerful spiritual experience I have had that confirmed a lot of things in my soul about God, Jesus Christ, and Joseph Smith. Thanks for sharing that bit of personal information. I understand where you are coming from much better.

Glenn

[Tacenda]

26 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Thanks!  I try.  

It's not heartless to acknowledge God's laws and obedience to them are at least equal to, and probably more important than, the feelings of those involved.  

There will be much weeping and wailing from those who choose to reject a law of God.  Those feelings won't change anything.  Obedience is the first law of heaven.

 

What if it's men, speaking as if they're gods? In the Bible women are slaves. Does that come from God? If so, the mantra that God loves his daughters is pure bunk. And a god that would tell Joseph to marry these young girls and have them sacrifice themselves to do it and even have marital relations...is just not the god I want anything to do with. 

[Calm]

6 hours ago, JulieM said:

Are you going to ask the same of those who posted only partial quotes in defense of Joseph marrying Lucy?  Both should be complete to give a true picture of what took place and how she felt, I think.

Yep, I am consistent in telling people to always read original accounts where they are available, whether it is believers or critics posting the material.  I don't trust paraphrasing unless the person has established their accuracy.  I see too many misreading and providing misinterpretations that can even say the opposite of what the person actually meant in the here and now when the person is right there having the conversation, so why wouldn't it happen just as often or even more when the person is long dead? However I know for a fact that the wivesofJS site screwed up Helen's account, so the only reason anyone should use that site imo would be to use their quotes to track down a site that offers the full account.  The site josephsmithfoundation.org has the full account.  Their site has other problems, including a overly zealous denunciation of evolution, but they are making it easier to find autobiographies of early LDS online.  Be sure and check whether or not accounts are likely to be the real thing or fakes though.  My memory says there is something off about the Sara Stoddard journal.

PS:  I am not saying people can't post partial quoting of someone's autobiography.  I just believe that if one is going to make significant judgments based on someone's words, you should actually read those words in the original context as much as possible and not just rely on someone else's interpretation, especially if they indulge in a lot of paraphrasing when it really isn't needed.  When someone is using paraphrasing when it is about the same length as the original quote, I also get rather frustrated and cynical.  Why not just quote the person rather than thinking the reader needs all that interpretation?  Perhaps because the original words don't convey the exact picture one is trying to create?  Paraphrasing to reduce a long quote into a much shorter rendition makes sense, but again if one is making a judgment based on the person's comments, then one should read the comments, not a paraphrase or edited quoted.  Let the person speak fully for themselves.

Edited December 29, 2017 by Calm

[Danzo]

3 hours ago, sunstoned said:

How about Joseph's legal wife, Emma.  Does her opinion matter?

Everyone wants to deflect.

What did Emma write about Lucy?

Did  Emma say anything about Lucy that contradicts Lucy's statement?

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, DBMormon said:

or I frame everything in black and white dualistic thinking so as to walk people out of their own.

What the heck are you talking about?

[JulieM]

40 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Everyone wants to deflect.

What did Emma write about Lucy?

Did  Emma say anything about Lucy that contradicts Lucy's statement?

Emma didn’t know that Joseph married Lucy.  Do you know if she ever read what Lucy wrote or learned what was going on behind her back?  Maybe she avoided reading any of that because it hurt too much while it was happening (him marrying other women) and in the years after he was killed.  

She came to completely deny that he ever even lived polygamy.

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by JulieM