Reconciling the Lucy Walker story

[JulieM]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Mormonism succeeded in spite of polygamy. Had it not given it up, it would have become a tiny fundamentalist clan, like the FLDS.

Polygamy is the other relic of barbarism, along with slavery.

Polygamy was a mistake that the church is still suffering over, IMO.  I know of no one that learns about the truth of how Joseph really lived it that is not shaken and disturbed.  Some can accept and move on, others are able to get to a point where they put it on a shelf (that’s me), but many leave the church over it.  Everyone has to figure it out for themselves once they are exposed to the truth.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I remember reading something to the effect that Joseph Smith said he was wrong to introduce polygamy and said it near his death. Not saying this is true though, I think it was secondhand information. Also, some believe it's the reason Joseph was killed and God wanted it that way. I don't know that I believe that either.

I assume you are referring to this and to Quinn's speculation. 

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Joseph_Smith/Polygamy/William_Marks_claimed_Joseph_intended_to_abandon_plural_marriage

 

[JLHPROF]

21 minutes ago, JulieM said:

I know of no one that learns about the truth of how Joseph really lived it that is not shaken and disturbed.  Some can accept and move on, others are able to get to a point where they put it on a shelf (that’s me), but many leave the church over it.  Everyone has to figure it out for themselves once they are exposed to the truth.

Well that's not true.  You know of me.   I was never shaken or disturbed by how Joseph lived polygamy.

Now in all fairness I learned of polygamy and how Joseph lived it simultaneously, so I had no false notions about the practice to overcome.  But I  have never felt shaken or disturbed by it at all.

[JulieM]

7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Well that's not true.  You know of me.   I was never shaken or disturbed by how Joseph lived polygamy.

Now in all fairness I learned of polygamy and how Joseph lived it simultaneously, so I had no false notions about the practice to overcome.  But I  have never felt shaken or disturbed by it at all.

Yes, I think you’re unique (and I mean that as a compliment as I really do love your contribution and posts here).

[JLHPROF]

13 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Yes, I think you’re unique (and I mean that as a compliment as I really do love your contribution and posts here).

I appreciate that.  I don't think I'm all that unique though.  Maybe in a small minority, but I know quite a few Church history enthusiasts who are faithful members and have no issues with how Joseph lived polygamy.  I think it helps if you don't apply present day standards and norms, but instead view the restoration as a process that would naturally include some archaic practices and attitudes.

There is much in scripture that will be restored that will violate today's thinking and societal norms.  If animal sacrifice is restored as Joseph taught for instance.

[Darren10]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Some women also fought against women's suffrage. Human psychology is often a strange, alien landscape.

Not Mormon women. They championed women's suffrage. But, yeah, women can be dumb.

Edited December 30, 2017 by Darren10

[Darren10]

1 hour ago, JulieM said:

Polygamy was a mistake that the church is still suffering over, IMO.  I know of no one that learns about the truth of how Joseph really lived it that is not shaken and disturbed.  Some can accept and move on, others are able to get to a point where they put it on a shelf (that’s me), but many leave the church over it.  Everyone has to figure it out for themselves once they are exposed to the truth.

 

32 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I appreciate that.  I don't think I'm all that unique though.  Maybe in a small minority, but I know quite a few Church history enthusiasts who are faithful members and have no issues with how Joseph lived polygamy.  I think it helps if you don't apply present day standards and norms, but instead view the restoration as a process that would naturally include some archaic practices and attitudes.

There is much in scripture that will be restored that will violate today's thinking and societal norms.  If animal sacrifice is restored as Joseph taught for instance.

His name escapes me right now but there's one oerson whom I think I interacted directly with here at Motmrmon Dialogue who once rejected Joseph Smith for his polygamy but when he studied Joseph Smith's polygamy professionally it [helped] converted him to Joseph Smith. He is one of the significant contributors to the Joseph Smith Papers. 

[TOmNossor]

1 hour ago, JulieM said:

Polygamy was a mistake that the church is still suffering over, IMO.  I know of no one that learns about the truth of how Joseph really lived it that is not shaken and disturbed.  Some can accept and move on, others are able to get to a point where they put it on a shelf (that’s me), but many leave the church over it.  Everyone has to figure it out for themselves once they are exposed to the truth.

 

I am not sure I was "shaken and disturbed."  I joined the church because of what it was in 1993 when I came to know it.  I never met Joseph Smith and I barely had a testimony of him as a prophet (The missionaries -district leaders- made me return to prayer when I told them I wanted to join, but I was not sure of this "prophet" thing).  I just knew what he started was remarkable and changed lives.  I didn't know how much my life needed changing (I was proud and arrogant and ...), but I knew the church was good and I wanted to help (because I was so great I would be a blessing to the church ... proud, arrogant, and profoundly ignorant). 

It was not long after I joined the church that I pulled Todd Compton's book off the shelf at our local church bookstore (Albuquerque NM before Deseret came here).  I read for probably about 1 hour.  I was surprised that there was much in the book that sounded like it was saying that polygamy was some sort of mistake.

I remember concluding something to the effect, "well here is this in the LDS bookstore, I guess that is an ok LDS belief."

I now think Todd Compton's book is only within the spectrum of views LDS came embrace, but I suppose mine is a testimony for "inoculation."  I came across aspects of polygamy that did surprise me, but I thought the LDS bookstore was trusted source and thus I was not too scandalized.  Today I am generally a fan of some aspects of "inoculation."  That being said, I think some who advocate inoculation really advocate a invitation to a hollowed out faith.  "Come follow me and leave behind that full life changing faith you once had."   My message is, "Don't be illusioned, if necessary become disillusioned, but keep going until you see God's hand in every step you take.  This is neither being illusioned nor disillusionment!"

Charity, TOm

[TOmNossor]

10 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

 

His name escapes me right now but there's one oerson whom I think I interacted directly with here at Motmrmon Dialogue who once rejected Joseph Smith for his polygamy but when he studied Joseph Smith's polygamy professionally it [helped] converted him to Joseph Smith. He is one of the significant contributors to the Joseph Smith Papers. 

You mean Don Bradley I think, but I am not sure I would quite paraphrase his experience this way.  I referenced him on page 7 of this thread.

Charity, TOm

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

I assume you are referring to this and to Quinn's speculation. 

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Joseph_Smith/Polygamy/William_Marks_claimed_Joseph_intended_to_abandon_plural_marriage

 

Thanks JL!

[JulieM]

55 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I think it helps if you don't apply present day standards and norms, but instead view the restoration as a process that would naturally include some archaic practices and attitudes.

I’m actually totally fine with consenting adults living polygamy as long as it’s done openly with no deceit.

But, I can’t believe that God condoned betraying your wife and sneaking around doing what Joseph was doing without Emma’s knowledge back then anymore than he would today.  It was wrong then and wrong now, IMO.

What he was doing was also not right or fitting to their “standards and norms” or Joseph wouldn’t have had to hide it and be so secretive and deceptive to live it.  So I don’t see how your logic applies here really.

[Darren10]

22 minutes ago, TOmNossor said:

You mean Don Bradley I think, but I am not sure I would quite paraphrase his experience this way.  I referenced him on page 7 of this thread.

Charity, TOm

That's him! I'm most likely wrong in some aspect with my paraphrasing his life. But thanks for the name, now I can look into him a bit.

[Bernard Gui]

14 hours ago, JulieM said:

Which could have been done without polygamy, IMO.  There are less children born in polygamous relationships (from what I’ve read).

But at least you’re not one who claims Joseph never slept with his wives if you believe that was the purpose (to raise up seed).

That was the purpose. Just these 17 early polygamists - 671 children. Parley Pratt alone had 266 grandchildren. That’s a lot of seed raised very quickly. I don’t have time to look up the rest.

 

Brigham Young	56
John Taylor	34
Lorenzo snow	42
Heber kimball	66
Orson Pratt	45
Joseph F. Smith	45
William Clayton	42
Orson Hyde	32
Parley pratt	30
Ezra t. Benson	35
George q. Cannon	32
Wilford woodruff	34
George a. Smith	20
Daniel h. Wells	40
Charles c. Rich	51
Amasa m. Lyman	38
Franklin D. Richards	29
TOTAL	671

 

Edited December 30, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

14 hours ago, JulieM said:

Still no commandment to specifically live polygamy.   Where is polygamy commanded there?

Hmmm. It is explicitly accepted by God in this law, blessed by Him in Abraham, Jacob, and others, and the fruits of polygamist marriages were the chosen people of God, the Priesthood, the Temple, the original 12 apostles, Mary the mother of Jesus, and the Savior Jesus Christ. If that is not approval, then what is it?

The absence of a recorded commandment is not evidence that there never was one. Jacob 2 declares God’s marriage policies which allow the practice of polygamy under strict circumstances only when he commands it. That is definitely written in scripture.

Edited December 30, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Darren10]

Oh, the irony. LOL!

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/59041-don-bradleys-return-to-the-church/

 

[Darren10]

13 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Hmmm. It is explicitly accepted by God in this law, blessed by Him in Abraham, Jacob, and others, and the fruits of polygamist marriages were the chosen people of God, the Priesthood, the Temple, the original 12 apostles, Mary the mother of Jesus, and the Savior Jesus Christ. If that is not approval, then what is it?

The absence of a recorded commandment is not evidence that there never was none. Jacob 2 declares God’s marriage policies which allow the practice of polygamy under strict circumstances only when he commands it. That is definitely written in scripture.

I think Joseph Smith's account of him being commanded to practice polygamy is the best resource we have to correctly interpret the ancient practice of polygamy.

[Darren10]

29 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

That was the purpose. Just these 16 early polygamists - 642 children. Parley Pratt alone had 266 grandchildren. That’s a lot of seed raised very quickly. I don’t have time to look up the rest.

 

Brigham Young	56
John Taylor	34
Lorenzo snow	42
Heber kimball	66
Orson Pratt	45
Joseph F. Smith	45
William Clayton	42
Orson Hyde	32
Parley pratt	30
Ezra t. Benson	35
George q. Cannon	32
Wilford woodruff	34
George a. Smith	20
Daniel h. Wells	40
Charles c. Rich	51
Amasa m. Lyman	38
TOTAL	642

 

Darren = 5

[kiwi57]

7 hours ago, Gray said:

Mormonism succeeded in spite of polygamy. Had it not given it up, it would have become a tiny fundamentalist clan, like the FLDS.

Polygamy is the other relic of barbarism, along with slavery.

Or is presentism the real relic of barbarism?

Merely regurgitating old political slogans doesn't look a whole lot like deep thought to me.

[kiwi57]

5 hours ago, JulieM said:

Polygamy was a mistake that the church is still suffering over, IMO.  I know of no one that learns about the truth of how Joseph really lived it that is not shaken and disturbed.  Some can accept and move on, others are able to get to a point where they put it on a shelf (that’s me), but many leave the church over it.  Everyone has to figure it out for themselves once they are exposed to the truth.

Polygamy was a blessing to the Church in its time, and continues to be a blessing to the Church in our time.

[kiwi57]

12 hours ago, ttribe said:

More mind reading from RCM/Pahoran/kiwi....

Wrong as usual.

But keep on trying, TT.

Why don't you try reading what I actually write, just for a change? Then you might be less likely to make such egregious errors of understanding.

[Bernard Gui]

29 minutes ago, kiwi57 said:

Polygamy was a blessing to the Church in its time, and continues to be a blessing to the Church in our time.

For example, consider the great leaders provided to the Church through the progeny of just the 17 polygamists I mentioned above. 

Edited December 30, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[kiwi57]

12 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

For example, consider the great leaders provided to the Church through the progeny of just the 16 polygamists I mentioned above. 

An excellent example.

[Calm]

I wonder what percentage of Parley's children were faithful to the Lord and thus raised up those 266 grandchildren to the Lord. (Serious question, are there any studies that compare level of remaining at least semi active in the Church to being member in name only or not a member?)

Having lots of children is not the identical imo as raising up seed to the Lord.

I wonder how many of his children saw him on a daily basis while he was alive, could always find him when they needed to talk when he was not on missions.

 

Edited December 30, 2017 by Calm

[Exiled]

3 hours ago, kiwi57 said:

Polygamy was a blessing to the Church in its time, and continues to be a blessing to the Church in our time.

Sounds like you want the church to bring it back?

[JulieM]

4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

That was the purpose. Just these 17 early polygamists - 671 children. Parley Pratt alone had 266 grandchildren. That’s a lot of seed raised very quickly. I don’t have time to look up the rest.

 

Brigham Young	56
John Taylor	34
Lorenzo snow	42
Heber kimball	66
Orson Pratt	45
Joseph F. Smith	45
William Clayton	42
Orson Hyde	32
Parley pratt	30
Ezra t. Benson	35
George q. Cannon	32
Wilford woodruff	34
George a. Smith	20
Daniel h. Wells	40
Charles c. Rich	51
Amasa m. Lyman	38
Franklin D. Richards	29
TOTAL	671

Those women could have had even more children if they’d not been married to a man with many other wives  (or just as many).  I don’t see that explanation as valid (to raise seed).