Reconciling the Lucy Walker story

[Glenn101]

2 hours ago, Exiled said:

It seems the real reason for polygamy and polyandry is not broached here but that is understandable.

Would you please provide us the real reason? When you make such a statement I am assuming that you have some incontrovertible evidence rather than just another opinion as in the case of everyone else, including me, that is posting here.

 

[Gray]

22 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

I do believe this was the course of our dialogue regarding polygamy, I doubt you are a psychiatrist and is you are I doubt you treated Mormon women in the 19th century. 

By “psychologically aloof” I mean distant from reality. It’s another way of saying, “mentally incompetant”, which is what I think you think of Mormon women who voted for polygamy. 

Thanks for clarifying. I think they were attempting to demonstrate in-group loyalty and righteousness. People do all kinds of funny things when strong ideology is involved. It has nothing to do with being mentally incompetent.

 

[kiwi57]

On 12/31/2017 at 2:07 AM, Exiled said:

Sounds like you want the church to bring it back?

Not that I had noticed.

[kiwi57]

On 12/31/2017 at 5:48 AM, Gray said:

I didn't say that. But sometimes, for ideological reasons, people can fight against their own well-being.

As far as I can tell, ideology is driven largely by self-interest; which is not always the same as well-being.

Actual religious conviction, by contrast, is rather more disinterested than ideology.

It's a fairly well-known fact - and one which feminist agitators have traded rather heavily upon - that women show an automatic own-group preference based on gender that men do not share. (Or mirror.) LDS women have higher loyalties; that's all. You can despise them for that if you like.

[kiwi57]

On 12/31/2017 at 8:00 AM, JulieM said:

Correct.  But no one has claimed an angel appeared to him with a drawn sword threatening them if they didn’t laugh or do things that involved lies, deceit and betraying your own wife and others. That’s why your comparison is not a good one. 

But Joseph didn't do things that involved lies, deceit and betraying his own wife and others. I realise that that is the standard anti-polygamy rant, but it is false.

Sorry.

[kiwi57]

15 hours ago, Gray said:

Of course it was oppressive to women - that's by its very nature. I didn't say all aspects of Utah culture were oppressive to women, but polygamy was and is.

So it doesn't matter whether any women felt oppressed or were oppressed; you define polygamy as "oppressive to women... by its very nature" and claim victory by definition only.

Congratulations.

[kiwi57]

3 hours ago, Exiled said:

It seems the real reason for polygamy and polyandry is not broached here but that is understandable.

Really?

Do tell, Ex: just what was "the real reason for polygamy and polyandry?"

[JulieM]

14 minutes ago, kiwi57 said:

But Joseph didn't do things that involved lies, deceit and betraying his own wife and others. 

Well, if you believe that’s true, then you aren’t very well read about what was involved.  Do you believe Joseph told Emma everything and got her permission?  Read about the lies and deceit involved with the Partridge sisters (and the mock weddings for Emma).  That was deceit.  You can call it something else, but Emma was lied to and she was deceived.  

That is only one of many examples and I recommend studying this topic more, kiwi (if it interests you).

Edited December 31, 2017 by JulieM

[kiwi57]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Sounds like a variation on a Calvinist theme.

No. It doesn't.

Prior influences do not neatly slot into either absolute determinism or complete irrelevance.

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, JulieM said:

Well, then you aren’t very well read about what was involved.  Do you believe Joseph told Emma everything and got her permission?  Read about the lies and deceit involved with the Partridge sisters (and the mock weddings for Emma).  That was deceit.  You can call it something else, but Emma was lied to and she was deceived.  

That is only one of many examples and I recommend studying this topic more, kiwi (if it interests you).

We have no idea when Emma was first taught the gospel principles concerning plural marriage.  But if she rejected them and refused to participate AND Joseph was required to follow God's will what hypothetically should Joseph have done in your opinion?

[kiwi57]

3 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Well, if you believe that’s true, then you aren’t very well read about what was involved.  Do you believe Joseph told Emma everything and got her permission?  Read about the lies and deceit involved with the Partridge sisters (and the mock weddings for Emma).  That was deceit.  You can call it something else, but Emma was lied to and she was deceived.  

That is only one of many examples and I recommend studying this topic more, kiwi (if it interests you).

Of course, Julie. It's just not possible for anyone to disagree with you unless they don't know the facts as well as you do. Let us ignore the fact that there are people who know considerably more than you, and have demonstrated that by their published work, who also don't agree with you.

Yes, I know all about the Partridge sisters. And Fanny Alger. And Eliza R. Snow, who Emma did not push down the stairs.

Emma gave Joseph permission to enter into Plural Marriage. That is a fact. There also appear to have been specific marriages that Emma didn't know about at the time. Either she vacillated about the subject a lot, or she and Joseph had some kind of "don't tell me the details" agreement going on. Both explanations are possible, but in either case there was no "deceit" involved.

No matter how much you wish there was.

[JulieM]

7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

We have no idea when Emma was first taught the gospel principles concerning plural marriage.  But if she rejected them and refused to participate AND Joseph was required to follow God's will what hypothetically should Joseph have done in your opinion?

No matter what the answer is that anyones gives to that or how one justifies what was done, Joseph still lied to and deceived Emma.  

Edited December 31, 2017 by JulieM

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Some people might trust in God to make up the difference if they neglect their children in pursuit of an acting career. But as always, God does not do our work for us. Either we put time into raising our children or we reap the natural consequences.

Are you comparing choosing to obey God to choosing to become an actor?  I'm not even sure how to comment on that.  

Besides that though, the idea that polygamy automatically or always equals child neglect is just silly.  

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

If it has any influence at all, it would need to be mitigated in the final judgement anyway - otherwise God would be a partial God. .

I'm not sure what you mean. Can you clarify?

[JLHPROF]

25 minutes ago, JulieM said:

No matter what the answer is that anyones gives to that or how one justifies what was done, Joseph still lied to and deceived Emma.  

Yeah, that's what I thought.

Joseph was stuck between his God's command and his wife's feelings.  There was no choice that wouldn't bring accusations of wrongdoing upon him. 

[JulieM]

46 minutes ago, kiwi57 said:

Of course, Julie. It's just not possible for anyone to disagree with you unless they don't know the facts as well as you do. Let us ignore the fact that there are people who know considerably more than you, and have demonstrated that by their published work, who also don't agree with you.

Yes, I know all about the Partridge sisters. And Fanny Alger. And Eliza R. Snow, who Emma did not push down the stairs.

Emma gave Joseph permission to enter into Plural Marriage. That is a fact. There also appear to have been specific marriages that Emma didn't know about at the time. Either she vacillated about the subject a lot, or she and Joseph had some kind of "don't tell me the details" agreement going on. Both explanations are possible, but in either case there was no "deceit" involved.

All that you wrote above doesn’t change the fact that the mock weddings for the Partiidge sisters took place rather than telling Emma the truth that these 2 sisters were already married to Joseph (that is deceit and that is not being truthful).

Emma gave permission for a few of his sealings but most were done behind her back ( such as the Partridge sister’s actual sealings).  That involved lying to her and deceiving her.  You may be able to justify it, or try to call it something else, but there was deceit involved on Joseph’s part (and others).

And I’ve never claim to know the most on this topic and have openly admitted that I’m still researching, reading and learning from others.  

But you’re not being honest (or are very naive) if you have read up on this topic and claim that Joseph never lied or deceived anyone to live polygamy as he did.

Edited December 31, 2017 by JulieM

[JulieM]

9 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Yeah, that's what I thought.

Joseph was stuck between his God's command and his wife's feelings.  There was no choice that wouldn't bring accusations of wrongdoing upon him. 

I think he could have lived polygamy without the lies and deceit (or at least with a lot less of those).  Of course, I don’t know that to be true, but if he’d not gone after Emma’s young housemaids (who she loved and considered her daughters) or other men’s wives, there would have been much less deceit involved.

Everyone has choices and there are consequences to all of them.  The church is still suffering from the consequences of how Joseph chose to go about practicing polygamy, IMO.

Edited December 31, 2017 by JulieM

[kiwi57]

1 minute ago, JulieM said:

I think he could have lived polygamy without the lies and deceit.  Of course, I don’t know that to be true, but if he’d not gone after Emma’s young housemaids (who she loved and considered as her daughter) or other married men’s wives, there would have been much less deceit involved.

What is your evidence that Emma "considered" Lucy "as her daughter?" Are you just parroting the OP's attempt to inflate the relationship for polemical purposes, or is there a reliable source for that claim?

1 minute ago, JulieM said:

Everyone has choices and there are consequences to all of them.  The church is still suffering from the consequences of how Joseph chose to go about practicing polygamy, IMO.

Don't you just wish that were true?

[Calm]

55 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Well, if you believe that’s true, then you aren’t very well read about what was involved.  Do you believe Joseph told Emma everything and got her permission?  Read about the lies and deceit involved with the Partridge sisters (and the mock weddings for Emma).  That was deceit.  You can call it something else, but Emma was lied to and she was deceived.  

That is only one of many examples and I recommend studying this topic more, kiwi (if it interests you).

Kiwi is well informed about polygamy from what I have seen him post in the over a decade I have known him online. (most long term posters are given the times this topic has come up with all the variations and reports of even minor details).  He simply does not interpret or weight the accounts in the same way you do.

Edited December 31, 2017 by Calm

[Darren10]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Thanks for clarifying. I think they were attempting to demonstrate in-group loyalty and righteousness. People do all kinds of funny things when strong ideology is involved. It has nothing to do with being mentally incompetent.

 

Just aloof. 

[JulieM]

I’ve got to get off of here for the evening.

Happy New Year everyone!! 

Edited January 1, 2018 by JulieM

[why me]

2 hours ago, JulieM said:

Well, if you believe that’s true, then you aren’t very well read about what was involved.  Do you believe Joseph told Emma everything and got her permission?  Read about the lies and deceit involved with the Partridge sisters (and the mock weddings for Emma).  That was deceit.  You can call it something else, but Emma was lied to and she was deceived.  

That is only one of many examples and I recommend studying this topic more, kiwi (if it interests you).

And the end result was that Emma carried a locket of Joseph's hair around her neck after his murder and she didn't speak a negative word about him after his death. And Emma had every reason to expose the 'fraud' about Joseph and his first vision. But she didn't.

[Gray]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Are you comparing choosing to obey God to choosing to become an actor?  I'm not even sure how to comment on that.  

In both cases they're choosing their own selfish desires over their children.

Of course it's possible to be an actor and a good parent. Or to be godly and a good parent.

 

Quote

Besides that though, the idea that polygamy automatically or always equals child neglect is just silly.  

It does when there are dozens of wives and children.

Edited December 31, 2017 by Gray

[Scott Lloyd]

53 minutes ago, Gray said:

In both cases they're choosing their own selfish desires over their children.

Of course it's possible to be an actor and a good parent. Or to be godly and a good parent.

 

I’ve never before this moment seen obeying God characterized as a selfish choice. The notion strikes me as bizarre. 

[JulieM]

8 hours ago, kiwi57 said:

What is your evidence that Emma "considered" Lucy "as her daughter?" 

Lucy wrote that both Emma and Joseph introduced her as their daughter to others.

That was quoted earlier.  I will search for it and post it again for you if you’d like to read the actual quote, ok?