Reconciling the Lucy Walker story

[Danzo]

6 hours ago, DBMormon said:

Knowing the background of the Lucy Walker story (if you don't, I can not emphasize enough the need to understand the story - resources below), I am curious how those who both know the story and who are faithful to the restoration and Church authority answer the following question.

Do you take the position that Joseph deceived Lucy Walker about God commanding him to take her as a plural wife, or do you subscribe to a God whose morality has him commanding a man in a father/daughter dynamic to change his relationship with this 16 year old girl living in his home effectively as his foster daughter into a husband/wife dynamic? I am also open to other perspectives that hold some other ground but wood tool answers will not be acceptable in this post (have faith, God will work it out on the other side, go pray about it and get your own answer knowing people get competing answers)

The question is not how does someone other than yourself come down or arrive at a perspective on this question but rather where do you personally come down on this question. I am deeply hoping that you wont avoid all-together or avoid using the mechanism that you know by the spirit that the Church is true hence you don't concern yourself with such conundrums. Instead what is your personal take on this historical issue.

While this historical story has been largely ignored, I think it is the most important story in all of Mormonism. bigger than the Book of Abraham, bigger than Helen Mar Kimball and Fanny Alger, bigger than first vision accounts, and Race and Priesthood.

http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2017/12/premium-lucy-walker-spiritual-experiences/

http://www.yearofpolygamy.com/tag/lucy-walker-smith/

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/23-LucyWalker.htm

http://josephsmithspolygamy.org/plural-wives-overview/lucy-walker/

Do you believe god deceived Lucy?

Does her opinion matter?

[ALarson]

55 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

That certainly is one option ... though only if you are willing to completely deny the young girl in question her own voice. And agency.

True, but she was only 15 years old, correct (I'll double check that too)?  Joseph promised her salvation (and for her family's too).  He was the Prophet and much older than she was.  Have you read all that she has stated regarding this?  

There was a pattern of Joseph doing this (approaching the young house maids who Emma loved as her own daughters).  I doubt anyone here would be defending this type of behavior from any older, married man today....whether it was President Monson, the Prophet or not. 

These are the stories that are disturbing for me and I honestly don't understand anyone being ok with them.  So what if a young teenage girl was persuaded and ended up believing it came from God?  Sorry....but that's how I feel.  I do know that there are some very inspiring stories regarding polygamy (mainly by the women, IMO)....but this is not one of them.  I don't want to discount all of the valiant women in living polygamy involved though.

And, did Emma know anything about this?

ETA:

From one of the links, I see she was 15 when she moved into the Prophets home, but 16 when they married....is that correct?

Edited December 28, 2017 by ALarson

[DBMormon]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

You need another paradigm. You are so black and white with no ability to nuance anything.

Joseph was a human male.

He was a sinner just like we all are. He was a religious genius that had incredible intellectual and spiritual abilities to create a new paradigm for interaction with Christ.

You're really need to learn that even prophets are fallible human beings. And let go of all this silliness.

or I frame everything in black and white dualistic thinking so as to walk people out of their own.

[DBMormon]

9 minutes ago, Danzo said:

What about Lucy?  do you accept her account of what happened?

yes in as far as people in all faiths have such experiences and that sleep deprivation and religious coercion which which she makes clear were present lead to spiritual manifestations.

[ALarson]

Here is from one of the links (more words from Lucy):

Quote

 

The Walker family arrived in Nauvoo in the spring of 1841.  That summer Lucy’s Mother contracted malaria and died months later in January 1842, leaving ten children.  Her Father, John, was heartbroken and his health, “seemed to give way”.  Lucy remembers, “The Prophet came to the rescue. He Said, if you remain here Bro. Walker, you will soon follow your wife.  You must have a change of scene, a change of climate.  You have Just such a family as I could love.  My house shall be their home...place the little ones with kind friends, and the four Eldest shall come to my house and [be] received and treated as my own children...”  The change of scene and climate that Joseph had in mind for John Walker was a two year mission to the eastern states.  In response to this arrangement Lucy said, “I rung my hands in the agony of despair at the thought of being broken up as a family, and being sepparated from the little ones...”  Never-the-less, fifteen-year-old Lucy moved into the Prophets house. 

While living in the Smith home, Lucy remembers: “In the year 1842 President Joseph Smith sought an interview with me, and said, ‘I have a message for you, I have been commanded of God to take another wife, and you are the woman.’  My astonishment knew no bounds. This announcement was indeed a thunderbolt to me...He asked me if I believed him to be a Prophet of God. ‘Most assuredly I do I replied.’...He fully Explained to me the principle of plural or celestial marriage.  Said this principle was again to be restored for the benefit of the human family.  That it would prove an everlasting blessing to my father’s house.”

“What do you have to Say?” Joseph asked.  “Nothing” Lucy replied, “How could I speak, or what would I say?”  Joseph encouraged her to pray: “tempted and tortured beyond endureance until life was not desirable. Oh that the grave would kindly receive me that I might find rest on the bosom of my dear mother...Why – Why Should I be chosen from among thy daughters, Father I am only a child in years and experience.  No mother to council; no father near to tell me what to do, in this trying hour.  Oh let this bitter cup pass. And thus I prayed in the agony of my soul.”

Joseph told Lucy that the marriage would have to be secret, but that he would acknowledge her as his wife, “beyond the Rocky Mountains”.  He then gave Lucy an ultimatum, “It is a command of God to you.  I will give you untill to-morrow to decide this matter. If you reject this message the gate will be closed forever against you.”  Lucy said, “This arroused every drop of scotch in my veins...I felt at this moment that I was called to place myself upon the altar a liveing Sacrafice, perhaps to brook the world in disgrace and incur the displeasure and contempt of my youthful companions; all my dreams of happiness blown to the four winds, this was too much, the thought was unbearable.”  

Now, bearing the burden of her own eternal salvation and that of her family, and with a deadline approaching, Lucy prayed more fervently for an answer.  She couldn’t sleep the entire night.  Just before dawn, and Joseph’s deadline, she “received a powerful and irristable testimony of the truth of the mariage covenant called 'Celestial or plural mariage'” and "I afterwards married Joseph as a plural wife and lived and cohabitated with him as such."  Lucy married Joseph on May 1, 1843.  At the time, Emma was in St. Louis buying supplies for the Nauvoo hotel.  Lucy remembers, “Emma Smith was not present and she did not consent to the marriage; she did not know anything about it at all.”  Of the relationship, Lucy said, “It was not a love matter, so to speak, in our affairs, -at least on my part it was not, but simply the giving up of myself as a sacrifice to establish that grand and glorious principle that God had revealed to the world.”

 

 

Edited December 28, 2017 by ALarson

[pogi]

6 hours ago, DBMormon said:

because it feels you must either deal with God's morality being very different and in some ways most folks eyes as perhaps even immoral than you had thought or you must wrestle with the fallibility of prophet in very serious ways

Why does it force us to alter our perceptions of God's morality?  Is the God of Joseph not the God of Abraham?  Was Abraham (86 years old), who was married to Sarah, not given Hagar (a young fertile maid)?

Edited December 28, 2017 by pogi

[JLHPROF]

5 minutes ago, ALarson said:

True, but she was only 15 years old, correct (I'll double check that too)? 

She was 17 when they were sealed.

Quote

Joseph promised her salvation (and for her family's too).  He was the Prophet and much older than she was.  Have you read all that she has stated regarding this?  

It was neither blackmail or bribery.  It was a statement of consequence.

Quote

There was a pattern of Joseph doing this (approaching the young house maids who Emma loved as her own daughters).  I doubt anyone here would be defending this type of behavior from any older, married man today....whether it was President Monson, the Prophet or not. 

Josephs wives came in all ages, from 14 to late 50s.  Some were civilly married some weren't.  Some lived with him some didn't.  There was no real pattern or preference shown.

Quote

These are the stories that are disturbing for me and I honestly don't understand anyone being ok with them.  So what if a young teenage girl was persuaded and ended up believing it came from God?  Sorry....but that's how I feel.  I do know that there are some very inspiring stories regarding polygamy (mainly by the women, IMO)....but this is not one of them.  I don't want to discount all of the valiant women in living polygamy involved though.

Yet discounting them is exactly what you are doing.  Lucy received a revelatory experience confirming to her that it was right.  And she had the faith to follow what God revealed to her.  She didn't marry Joseph because he told her to.  She married Joseph because the Lord told her to.

Quote

And, did Emma know anything about this?

Lucy lived with Joseph and claimed to be familiar with the Partridge sister fiasco.  Emma had given them as wives to Joseph and then recanted and kicked them out.  I think it's very clear why Emma wasn't let in on Lucy's marriage.  She had rejected the law.

[Danzo]

8 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

yes in as far as people in all faiths have such experiences and that sleep deprivation and religious coercion which which she makes clear were present lead to spiritual manifestations.

You don't believe or respect her at all then.

Her account is worthless

Her opinion does not matter

 

[Danzo]

14 minutes ago, ALarson said:

True, but she was only 15 years old, correct (I'll double check that too)? 

Not when she wrote her account.

[Hamba Tuhan]

12 minutes ago, ALarson said:

So what if a young teenage girl was persuaded and ended up believing it came from God?  Sorry....but that's how I feel.

You are certainly free to feel however you choose. As a professionally trained historian, I have always attempted to construct narratives that would feel familiar to the participants. You and DB have essentially both told Lucy that how you feel about her situation is more important -- and somehow more accurate -- than what she herself understood about it. I feel reasonably certain that she would shake her head at such 'revisionism' and question your motives.

[JLHPROF]

5 minutes ago, pogi said:

Why does it force us to alter our perceptions of God's morality?  Is the God of Joseph not the God of Abraham?  Was Abraham (86 years old) not given Hagar (a young fertile maid)?

Was not the mother of the Son of God a young maid around 14?

[Duncan]

4 hours ago, DBMormon said:

 

I want to know what right we have to judge people we've never met, in a situation we only know glimpses of

[Danzo]

16 minutes ago, ALarson said:

He was the Prophet and much older than she was.  Have you read all that she has stated regarding this?  

 

She was much older than the prophet when her account was published.

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Here is from one of the links (more words from Lucy):

 

I do not trust the website wivesofJS for accuracy ever since I found they took Helen Mar Kimball's words and had to have intentionally misquoted her (took different quotes and combined them as if they occurred at the same time while leaving out important info) that misrepresented her actual feelings.  And their reference system is pretty useless unless they have changed it.

Always go to the original words to ensure you are getting what someone actually said.

[Danzo]

3 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I want to know what right we have to judge people we've never met, in a situation we only know glimpses of

And discount eyewitness accounts as well.

[Duncan]

Just now, Danzo said:

And discount eyewitness accounts as well.

exactley. Historians aren't in the judging business, they are in the what happened business-whether or not it was right or wrong they did whatever, none of the historians' business. That simple lesson is lost in people

[ALarson]

15 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

She was 17 when they were sealed.

Yes, I see that now.  She was 15 when she moved into his home.

 

15 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Lucy lived with Joseph and claimed to be familiar with the Partridge sister fiasco.  Emma had given them as wives to Joseph and then recanted and kicked them out.  I think it's very clear why Emma wasn't let in on Lucy's marriage.  She had rejected the law.

So the answer is:  no, Emma did not know about Joseph's proposal and marriage to Lucy.  

It's this pattern (Joseph approaching the young teenage girls who were Emma's housemaids), that is one of the most disturbing details regarding how he lived polygamy, IMO.

I know some are fine knowing these details.  I am not.  

I believe polygamy came from man and not from God.  I do not believe God would command a man to do anything that involved the lies and deceit that Joseph's polygamy did....most especially the betrayal involving his own wife, Emma.

That's really all I have to say about this topic and will bow out.  Nothing will change my mind regarding how Joseph lived polygamy and the deceit involved (especially with how he approached the young teenage girls) and I feel the same goes for you (that nothing will change your mind and I respect your right to believe as you do). 

Moving on now.... 

 

Edited December 28, 2017 by ALarson

[Danzo]

25 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

or I frame everything in black and white dualistic thinking so as to walk people out of their own.

so you use logical fallacies to help others avoid logical fallacies?

Edited December 28, 2017 by Danzo

[CA Steve]

9 minutes ago, pogi said:

Why does it force us to alter our perceptions of God's morality?  Is the God of Joseph not the God of Abraham?  Was Abraham (86 years old) not given Hagar (a young fertile maid)?

Yes you are correct,  because she was a slave, she was "GIVEN" to Abraham. 

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, DBMormon said:

feel free to submit others

Those are the ones you proposed in your either/or question. Do you think they are the only two? If not, why did you only include these two? 

[omni]

24 minutes ago, Danzo said:

You don't believe or respect her at all then.

Her account is worthless

Her opinion does not matter

 

Do you give that same benefit of doubt to the teenage brides from the numerous polygamous offshoots?  Undoubtedly, many of them had similar spiritual experiences confirming their decision to marry their much older husbands.

What about situations in which you have a student in romantic relationship with his/her teacher?  If one doesn't condone this relationship are they disrespecting or dismissing the child's belief that they are in love?

[DBMormon]

43 minutes ago, pogi said:

Why does it force us to alter our perceptions of God's morality?  Is the God of Joseph not the God of Abraham?  Was Abraham (86 years old), who was married to Sarah, not given Hagar (a young fertile maid)?

i don't believe any accounts of Abraham to be a literal historical telling of a mythological figure

[JulieM]

35 minutes ago, Calm said:

I do not trust the website wivesofJS for accuracy ever since I found they took Helen Mar Kimball's words and had to have intentionally misquoted her (took different quotes and combined them as if they occurred at the same time while leaving out important info) that misrepresented her actual feelings.  And their reference system is pretty useless unless they have changed it.

Always go to the original words to ensure you are getting what someone actually said.

Are you going to ask the same of those who posted only partial quotes in defense of Joseph marrying Lucy?  Both should be complete to give a true picture of what took place and how she felt, I think.

[JulieM]

Just now, DBMormon said:

i don't believe any accounts of Abraham to be a literal historical telling of a mythological figure

There is no record in the Bible of God commanding anyone to specifically live polygamy (some Levirate marriages were polygamous).  This has been discussed here numerous times. 

[Bernard Gui]

23 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Yes you are correct,  because she was a slave, she was "GIVEN" to Abraham. 

Quote

One of the most interesting women in the Bible is Hagar, Abraham's second wife, and the mother of Ishmael. The Arab and Bedouin tribes claim to be descendants of Ishmael, the son of Abraham and Hagar. According to the Midrash, Hagar was the daughter of King Pharaoh of Egypt. When she saw the miracle which G‑dperformed for the sake of Sarah, to save her from the hands of the Egyptian king during Abraham's visit there, she said: "It is better to be a slave in Sarah's house than a princess in my own." Her name "Hagar," according to the Midrash, stems from this beginning of her association with Abraham's house. It comes from "Ha-Agar," meaning this is the reward. Hagar became Sarah's Maid, but when Sarah was not blessed with children, she persuaded Abraham to take Hagar as his second wife. Sarah hoped that she could bring up Hagar's children and merit G‑d's blessing that way, so that she, too, perhaps might be blessed with a child. Abraham took Sarah's advice and married Hagar....Our Sages give Hagar much credit for not being frightened at having seen the divine angel, while even Manoah, as the T'nachtells us, feared that he would die because he had seen an angel of G‑d. This, say our Sages, shows how pious Hagar was, and how she had become adjusted to the saintly life of Abraham's house, where angels came and went as constant guests.

Many of our ancient Sages speak favorably of Hagar who never remarried. She lived together with her son who had built his home on the edge of the wilderness and became a famous hunter. The Sages say that he possessed Adam's coat which he had taken from King Nimrod. (This coat gave the wearer power over animals). Despite living with Ishmael so far from Abraham's influence, Hagar remained faithful to him. Therefore, after Sarah's death, Isaac himself went to her and took her back to his father to be again his father's wife. The Torah now calls her "Keturah," meaning "tied" to Abraham, for she had kept her faithful bond to Abraham; and it also means an adornment," for her good deeds. As the Torah tells us, she bore more children to Abraham. None, however, was as important as Ishmael.....Hagar, as our Sages picture her, was a woman of humility and piety. Indeed, few others were privileged to have an angel of G‑d speak to them twice, and produce miracles for them. http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/112053/jewish/Hagar.htm

Do you mean "slave" in the sense of the African-American slaves in America during the 18th and early 19th centuries? That does not seem to be the situation of Hagar.