4th Sundays in 2018

[rongo]

6 minutes ago, The Mean Farmer said:

1.  Put your phone away during our 3 hour block and force yourself to pay attention and TRY to receive revelation and the spirit in what is going on and what is being said.  I have found it isn't THAT hard.

I think I just heard Scott Lloyd's head explode . . . 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

Personally I'm looking forward to it.  This is an area that I know that I could improve in and I believe my ward as a whole could as well.  The April 2017 Sabbath Day Observance training is fantastic and has helped me further my understanding of why this topic is of such importance. 

https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/archive/general-conference-leadership-training/2017/04?lang=eng

I think it's a topic that most of us need to do better at.  I don't think we take the blessings that come from keeping the Sabbath day holy seriously enough.  

[cinepro]

4 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Has anyone been involved in the pilot programs for this approach (which also used Sabbath Observance as the topic- so you get another 6 months...yay!!)? How did it work? Were eyes more glazed over than usual on the 5th and 6th month? Seriously, is anyone looking forward to this? I will be thrilled if someone can show me that I have misunderstood this teaching approach and it won't really be 6 months of the same topic.

 

 

I'm pretty sure this teaching plan is inspired, because there's no way any rational person would come up with it on their own.

 

That being said, I think Church long ago stopped being a place where anyone expects to actually learn anything and instead it has become a ritual in repetition of curated and watered-down ideas.  This is just the next step in the evolution towards the pure form of ritualized worship where everything is scripted and there are no questions or discussion in class because they just aren't needed anymore.

Edited November 13, 2017 by cinepro

[juliann]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Our RS president mentioned some unease about how that's going to go over.  They are going to have different 'facilitators' teaching those sundays rather than having 1 fourth sunday teacher like they do now, to help keep things a little more interesting.

There are probably at least 6 different aspects of Sabbath day worship that a group could discuss in turn, so I don't think it has to be boring or repetitive.  It will take some getting used to though.

Hm, we haven't discussed the 4th sunday teacher part. That would be too hard on one person to come up with six different approaches I would think.

What I am impressed with is our ward's preparation for the change. We are doing the teacher council class full boar where we do just sit in a circle and talk. The emphasis is on how to react to what is being said rather than how to present a pre-planned set of information. I brought up men doing most of the talking as a concern (as men were doing most of the talking in the council, LOL).  The "lesson" then takes off in a different direction, as it did with everyone's contributions.

 When I used more of a council approach in my last RS lesson, someone brought up women having the priesthood and there was no lightening from the sky. What I found was that class members tend to respond to each other if you let them. Most striking was that when someone had trouble coming up with a name, at least three women were on their phones looking it up. So at that moment, there were about 5 people actively engaged in the "lesson" at the same time. It seriously took on the feeling of a game show for a minute and it all came from the class members. 

What I am noticing is that it is important to get everyone out of the teacher behind the table, students stacked up in rows model. When you are all sitting together, at the same level, in a face to face circle the whole atmosphere changes. Of course, in large groups that won't be possible. We are going to make a very large circle of chairs in RS. 

So for those who are concerned, is part of that because they are still visualizing this as a teacher lecture situation? If this is done right, I'm not sure it will be comparable to the old situation where months on one topic would drive us all out.  For one thing, it was suggested that a list be kept of all of the side questions that came up that couldn't be answered without research. That could create more lesson stuff.

[juliann]

21 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I'm pretty sure this teaching plan in inspired, because there's no way any rational person would come up with it on their own.

 

That being said, I think Church long ago stopped being a place where anyone expects to actually learn anything and instead it has become a ritual in repetition of curated and watered-down ideas.  This is just the next step in the evolution towards the pure form of ritualized worship where everything is scripted and there are no questions or discussion in class because they just aren't needed anymore.

It will be difficult to measure because it is going to only be as a good as the participants. This really won't be something that can be blamed on the powers that be anymore. The most you can do is blame the locals. If I was that 4th Sunday teacher, I would do a discussion on the history of the Sabbath, one on the OT, one on early church history. I would use it as a platform to get as many women's stories as I could in there. I'd get women talking about what their families traditionally ate on the Sabbath. Women would be able to talk forever about fun Sabbath activities or funny stories.  How different cultures do it, most of all, why does it matter, what difference does it make, and on and on and on. You are not getting the vision unless you can see a group of people, all different in many ways, sitting together and getting to know and respect each other. 

[cinepro]

15 minutes ago, juliann said:

It will be difficult to measure because it is going to only be as a good as the participants. This really won't be something that can be blamed on the powers that be anymore. The most you can do is blame the locals. If I was that 4th Sunday teacher, I would do a discussion on the history of the Sabbath, one on the OT, one on early church history. I would use it as a platform to get as many women's stories as I could in there. I'd get women talking about what their families traditionally ate on the Sabbath. Women would be able to talk forever about fun Sabbath activities or funny stories.  How different cultures do it, most of all, why does it matter, what difference does it make, and on and on and on. You are not getting the vision unless you can see a group of people, all different in many ways, sitting together and getting to know and respect each other. 

Sorry, but even with the most brilliant teachers and engaged and participatory students, there isn't enough peanut butter to cover the bread.   It's up to six lessons for each topic!

And you are describing an exceptional case.  This is being applied to all wards and branches.  What will the experience of the average teacher and class be?  How many teachers are there in the Church that are interested or capable of teaching on the "History of the Sabbath" for more than five minutes?  How many classes have three hours worth of Sabbath stories?  

The only thing I see for the Elder's Quorums are people sitting together and getting to know and respect their cell phones.

[cdowis]

A personal experience.

Elder Bruce R. McConkie gave a talk about the Sabbath at BYU.  My jaw dropped when he stated that it was OK to do homework on Sunday.

I am starting a business and have alot to study and learn in a very short time, so I do this on Sunday as well as normal Sunday activities.

[juliann]

2 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Sorry, but even with the most brilliant teachers and engaged and participatory students, there isn't enough peanut butter to cover the bread.   It's up to six lessons for each topic!

And you are describing an exceptional case.  This is being applied to all wards and branches.  What will the experience of the average teacher and class be?  How many teachers are there in the Church that are interested or capable of teaching on the "History of the Sabbath" for more than five minutes?  How many classes have three hours worth of Sabbath stories?  

The only thing I see for the Elder's Quorums are people sitting together and getting to know and respect their cell phones.

Then the problem is the "how many people" isn't it? I agree that the Sabbath isn't an attention grabbing topic and it certainly wouldn't be my pick. But I am watching a situation develop right in front of me where we are being given free rein. You know how free I can be with what I think....well, I'm close to that in these situations I am describing. And it's encouraged. In the short time this has been emphasized I've watched the most boring RS teacher stop lecturing. All it took was one very successful teacher who has been doing this method all along, at least I think that is what is prompting it. Another teacher came up to me and told me how scared she was but that she was going to stop reading the lesson. And she, in one effort, had everyone talking. 

Now I can't speak for EQ, obviously. But this is like lighting a wildfire in RS. Again, it will take people with social capital to set the stage and make it safe. But for once, we have been given something that will empower women and I see it happening even before it officially begins. Again, try to imagine this. On Sunday, I was sitting in a teachers' council where men were talking about dominating class time and cutting off women and admitting "I've done that."  And then deciding that we need to spend more time talking about how teachers can react to tough questions that can't be answered on the spot but must be answered.

Allow some mistakes. Like this topic. But what they are trying to set up.  WOW. Try being the class blowhard when you are sitting face to face with people who are no longer afraid to tackle the nonsense because they are now side to side. I actually hadn't thought of this as gendered before. Imagine that! This is a situation that empowers women.

[Jeanne]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

When I was bored in church once by a lazy and incompetent teacher I wondered why some LDS have almost developed the endurance  of boredom into a virtue needed for the next life. Then I was terrified by what reason that virtue would be needed in eternity.

Then I remembered how fun heaven is and figure the endurance of boredom is like tasting evil. You cannot appreciate how exciting eternity is without having tasted the bitterness of a colossal bore droning on about their dull life in a F&T meeting as if the puerile events described are of great spiritual significance. Then I feel better.

You have always had an interesting perspective on things...  i wish I could remember heaven...

[Jeanne]

I am thinking maybe God misses all of you...wants to bore you to death...!! (not really)...but perhaps the brethren are thinking that if you can't obey the Sabbath...you can't really obey a lot of things.  I worked at the landfill years ago..and papers were flying everywhere...it was my job (among weighing freight and managing the new toxic and metal wastes) to make sure that at least the disposals around the fences were clean.  I found these flyers made by protestants that said that we could save the world and Jesus would come back soon if we would just live the Sabbath day....so...this seems to mean a lot to so many!  I never minded the Sabbath as a holy day for quiet and families...but I hated it when little children were made to sit still...where Sunday clothes all day...stuff like that seemed way too extreme.  But six lessons???  Oh my...the things adults could learn and talk about  in six lessons...maybe the Sabbath being ONE of them.

[Avatar4321]

I think it will be interesting

[Avatar4321]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think it's a topic that most of us need to do better at.  I don't think we take the blessings that come from keeping the Sabbath day holy seriously enough.  

I agree. I firmly believe that we wouldn't have won the revolutionary war if general Washington hadnt been pushing Sabbath observance among the troops

[sheilauk]

I am not looking forward to it but, if the youth have to endure 8 or more lessons in a month on the same topic and repeat it every year for 6 or more years,  then I guess I'll manage 1 a month! 

[Avatar4321]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

I'm pretty sure this teaching plan is inspired, because there's no way any rational person would come up with it on their own.

 

That being said, I think Church long ago stopped being a place where anyone expects to actually learn anything and instead it has become a ritual in repetition of curated and watered-down ideas.  This is just the next step in the evolution towards the pure form of ritualized worship where everything is scripted and there are no questions or discussion in class because they just aren't needed anymore.

I learn things in church all the time

 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, juliann said:

Hm, we haven't discussed the 4th sunday teacher part. That would be too hard on one person to come up with six different approaches I would think.

What I am impressed with is our ward's preparation for the change. We are doing the teacher council class full boar where we do just sit in a circle and talk. The emphasis is on how to react to what is being said rather than how to present a pre-planned set of information. I brought up men doing most of the talking as a concern (as men were doing most of the talking in the council, LOL).  The "lesson" then takes off in a different direction, as it did with everyone's contributions.

 When I used more of a council approach in my last RS lesson, someone brought up women having the priesthood and there was no lightening from the sky. What I found was that class members tend to respond to each other if you let them. Most striking was that when someone had trouble coming up with a name, at least three women were on their phones looking it up. So at that moment, there were about 5 people actively engaged in the "lesson" at the same time. It seriously took on the feeling of a game show for a minute and it all came from the class members. 

What I am noticing is that it is important to get everyone out of the teacher behind the table, students stacked up in rows model. When you are all sitting together, at the same level, in a face to face circle the whole atmosphere changes. Of course, in large groups that won't be possible. We are going to make a very large circle of chairs in RS. 

So for those who are concerned, is part of that because they are still visualizing this as a teacher lecture situation? If this is done right, I'm not sure it will be comparable to the old situation where months on one topic would drive us all out.  For one thing, it was suggested that a list be kept of all of the side questions that came up that couldn't be answered without research. That could create more lesson stuff.

That sounds awesome.

I've really enjoyed our 'teaching in the Savior's way' classes this year.  We also always sit in a circle and we have a different teacher every time and they just sit in the circle with everyone else.  Our Ward councils have been spending a lot of time on figuring out how to make them even better (because even after a year of classes people are still struggling to see themselves as a facilitator or discussion leader rather than a teacher, but it's a cultural shift that is bound to take some time to adjust to).

[strappinglad]

We could just take a leaf from the rabbinical play book and come up with 300 rules governing Sabbath Day observance. 50 rules per Sunday lesson for 6 lessons... Yup , that should do it.

[Avatar4321]

just off the top of my head I can think of several different topics on the Sabbath

history of the sabbath

Jesus on the Sabbath

the Sabbath and the restoration

what is appropriate on the sabbath

teachings of the living prophets on the sabbath

class sharing personal experiences how keeping the Sabbath has blessed us

[Hamba Tuhan]

Whether these discussions are interesting or not, as juliann already pointed out, will be completely determined by the members in them. That is, in my opinion, one of the points of this whole shift. Our teacher council meetings often spend three months or more on a single topic. How does that work? We discuss the topic. People honestly share their concerns or hesitations. We brainstorm ways to do better. We then spend the intervening weeks trying to apply the principle. When we come back, we have heaps of experiences to share (usually both good and bad). More often than not, this discussion takes up the entire class period. Then the discussion leader asks if we want to continue on the same topic next month or move on to a different one. Half the time, we choose to keep working on the same topic. This means actually applying it and seeing how it works, etc.

To pick just the first topic of Sabbath Day observance, I am confident that members who are genuinely concerned about doing this better, counselling with their families, discussing and experimenting, etc. will have no trouble filling a 30-minute council/lesson with their inputs and insights and be keen for more. I've seen it. The days of passively listening to neatly packaged gospel messages but not actually doing anything with what we 'learn' are over.

Our recent Area President told us in a training meeting that they can see a huge division in our part of the world. Wards and stakes that are engaged in learning/doing/sharing are growing and full of life. Wards and stakes that are still treating church as something one sits through and then goes home from are shrinking and dying.

I've seen it with the members of my own ward. Our engaged members are doing better than I've ever seen before. They have endless experiences to share. They are led and guided by the Spirit throughout the week. They are making a difference in their own homes and in the lives of others. I love being around these people and listening to what they have to share.

Sadly, I can see our disengaged members fading. When they show up on Sundays and are asked to share what they experienced during the week as they applied gospel principles, all they have are blank looks. They almost look tired to me. I'm worried for them. One of my hopes is that sitting in a lively class discussion with others will help them to see what they're missing out on. Unfortunately, there are no guarantees. 

[Avatar4321]

48 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Whether these discussions are interesting or not, as juliann already pointed out, will be completely determined by the members in them. That is, in my opinion, one of the points of this whole shift. Our teacher council meetings often spend three months or more on a single topic. How does that work? We discuss the topic. People honestly share their concerns or hesitations. We brainstorm ways to do better. We then spend the intervening weeks trying to apply the principle. When we come back, we have heaps of experiences to share (usually both good and bad). More often than not, this discussion takes up the entire class period. Then the discussion leader asks if we want to continue on the same topic next month or move on to a different one. Half the time, we choose to keep working on the same topic. This means actually applying it and seeing how it works, etc.

To pick just the first topic of Sabbath Day observance, I am confident that members who are genuinely concerned about doing this better, counselling with their families, discussing and experimenting, etc. will have no trouble filling a 30-minute council/lesson with their inputs and insights and be keen for more. I've seen it. The days of passively listening to neatly packaged gospel messages but not actually doing anything with what we 'learn' are over.

Our recent Area President told us in a training meeting that they can see a huge division in our part of the world. Wards and stakes that are engaged in learning/doing/sharing are growing and full of life. Wards and stakes that are still treating church as something one sits through and then goes home from are shrinking and dying.

I've seen it with the members of my own ward. Our engaged members are doing better than I've ever seen before. They have endless experiences to share. They are led and guided by the Spirit throughout the week. They are making a difference in their own homes and in the lives of others. I love being around these people and listening to what they have to share.

Sadly, I can see our disengaged members fading. When they show up on Sundays and are asked to share what they experienced during the week as they applied gospel principles, all they have are blank looks. They almost look tired to me. I'm worried for them. One of my hopes is that sitting in a lively class discussion with others will help them to see what they're missing out on. Unfortunately, there are no guarantees. 

that post has much to consider. And it makes this thread worth it on its own.

 

 

[Rain]

8 hours ago, ksfisher said:

 

On the fourth Sunday of each month, quorums, groups, and Relief Societies discuss a topic selected by the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. These topics will be updated with every general conference. The topic until the next general conference will be the Sabbath day. Leaders or teachers may choose from the doctrines and learning activities suggested below, combine several of them, or create their own according to the needs of members.

https://www.lds.org/manual/come-follow-me-for-melchizedek-priesthood-and-relief-society-october-2017/fourth-sunday-meetings?lang=eng

So this would mean there are only 3 days of the Sabbath. It’s possible that when we get into the first full 6 month stretch that the topic is expanded. 

 

6 hours ago, juliann said:

It will be difficult to measure because it is going to only be as a good as the participants. This really won't be something that can be blamed on the powers that be anymore. The most you can do is blame the locals. If I was that 4th Sunday teacher, I would do a discussion on the history of the Sabbath, one on the OT, one on early church history. I would use it as a platform to get as many women's stories as I could in there. I'd get women talking about what their families traditionally ate on the Sabbath. Women would be able to talk forever about fun Sabbath activities or funny stories.  How different cultures do it, most of all, why does it matter, what difference does it make, and on and on and on. You are not getting the vision unless you can see a group of people, all different in many ways, sitting together and getting to know and respect each other. 

 

4 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

just off the top of my head I can think of several different topics on the Sabbath

history of the sabbath

Jesus on the Sabbath

the Sabbath and the restoration

what is appropriate on the sabbath

teachings of the living prophets on the sabbath

class sharing personal experiences how keeping the Sabbath has blessed us

To add to the topic you both suggested.

1. Different methods of scripture study with your family on the Sabbath - readers theater, act the scripture out, scripture chases, methods to memorize. You could even to a readers theater written to include scriptures on the sabbath during class time.

2. Service project etc appropriate for the Sunday. Your ward Just Serve specialist could lead that.

3. One month: taking a nature walk with the Sabbath in mind. The next Sunday: what our family learned while on our nature walk

4. Sabbath "is more than just quietly sitting. It's thinking og Father above."

5. Ideas for Sabbath music - complete with music played -variety of styles

6. Creating a Sunday video library

7. "The moment I understood what keeping the Sabbath day holy was _____"

8. Good books to read on the Sabbath

9. Expounding on the conference talk Copa ring the Sabbath time to the temple place.

10. What are the 2 similarities and difference between these 2 Sabbath scriptures? (This could easily go on for more than an hour with 2 good scriptures and good question teachers.

[Kenngo1969]

11 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Fair enough. But does 6 months of lessons based on the same topic sound interesting to you? Whether it's the Sabbath, or tithing, or baptism, or repentance...whatever, it doesn't sound like a very compelling learning/teaching model.

I know, again, that your mileage will vary, but what I get out of a class, whether I find it interesting or not, is very nearly entirely up to me.  I can come prepared, both spiritually and with respect to the lesson, for the class; I can pray for a teacher; I can talk to my Sunday School presidency and/or to the bishopric with any suggestions I might have for improving teaching, including endorsing Teacher Development and participating as invited and as circumstances dictate; depending on my relationship with the teacher, I can speak directly to him or her with any suggestions I might have; if a class is boring and I'm not doing anything to make it un-boring, whose fault is that?  I can liven up a "boring" class by participating more.   All of these things, with respect to the quality of the lesson, actually are within my control.  Ultimately, a teacher's responsibility is to encourage his or her students to draw close to the Spirit so He can do the teaching.

But you're absolutely right if you believe that if I come to class expecting to be spoon-fed a terrific lesson while not having bothered to do any of this, I'm apt to be sorely disappointed.  But even if none of the things I've mentioned succeed in improving the quality of lessons, I've still sat in so-called "sub-par" Sunday School lessons and been profoundly influenced by sudden insights I have discovered, with the Spirit's guidance, on my own (and those insights may or may not have had anything to do with the lesson or with the topic under discussion).

Any disagreement between us notwithstanding, I do wish you well.

Thanks,

-Ken  

Edited November 14, 2017 by Kenngo1969

[Calm]

10 hours ago, Danzo said:

Its not like it is going to be every Sunday, it will be taught every fourth or fifth Sunday.  I would be surprised if anyone will remember it was taught before with that much space in between.  Hard to get people to remember what was taught the previous week.

As far as the topic goes, I believe that I could get six different lessons on the subject without too much repetition.

Discuss OT observance first Sunday, including Sabbath as a day of rest from the world and devotion to God...might be enough to cover two if you try to liken it to us.  NT observance second and third week, including the Last Supper and Resurrection and how those events are the core of the Sabbath.  Fourth Sunday Book of Mormon and Doctrine Covenants, historical stories of practices and attitudes of early and international Saints, Fifth Sunday what are our  current weaknesses and strengths, sixth Sunday creating personal and community action plans on how to improve the Sabbath for the ward, one's family, and personal life.

Announce the following month's topic each class and send out email of core scripture reading a week ahead so some will come prepared to discuss.  Assign good readers for historical/international stories, see if you can find some to share personal experiences dealing with different cultures and what insights into the Sabbath they provided.

[Calm]

8 hours ago, juliann said:

It will be difficult to measure because it is going to only be as a good as the participants. This really won't be something that can be blamed on the powers that be anymore. The most you can do is blame the locals. If I was that 4th Sunday teacher, I would do a discussion on the history of the Sabbath, one on the OT, one on early church history. I would use it as a platform to get as many women's stories as I could in there. I'd get women talking about what their families traditionally ate on the Sabbath. Women would be able to talk forever about fun Sabbath activities or funny stories.  How different cultures do it, most of all, why does it matter, what difference does it make, and on and on and on. You are not getting the vision unless you can see a group of people, all different in many ways, sitting together and getting to know and respect each other. 

Hadn't read this before my own...see, lots of material out there.

People wanted in depth scripture study at Church, one subject for six weeks allows for that level of study.

[Rain]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I know, again, that your mileage will vary, but what I get out of a class, whether I find it interesting or not, is very nearly entirely up to me.  I can come prepared, both spiritually and with respect to the lesson, for the class; I can pray for a teacher; I can talk to my Sunday School presidency and/or to the bishopric with any suggestions I might have for improving teaching, including endorsing Teacher Development and participating as invited and as circumstances dictate; depending on my relationship with the teacher, I can speak directly to him or her with any suggestions I might have; if a class is boring and I'm not doing anything to make it un-boring, whose fault is that?  I can liven up a "boring" class by participating more.   All of these things, with respect to the quality of the lesson, actually are within my control.  Ultimately, a teacher's responsibility is to encourage his or her students to draw close to the Spirit so He can do the teaching.

But you're absolutely right if you believe that if I come to class expecting to be spoon-fed a terrific lesson while not having bothered to do any of this, I'm apt to be sorely disappointed.  But even if none of the things I've mentioned succeed in improving the quality of lessons, I've still sat in so-called "sub-par" Sunday School lessons and been profoundly influenced by sudden insights I have discovered, with the Spirit's guidance, on my own (and those insights may or may not have had anything to do with the lesson or with the topic under discussion).

Any disagreement between us notwithstanding, I do wish you well.

Thanks,

-Ken  

I think that what we get out of class has a great deal with ourselves. I've seen how I feel am and there is,a lot of variation within myself.

I do think a lot has to do with the teacher too though. There is a reason why the church puts out a loyal of things to be a bether teacher. There is a reason that we teach teachers to teach in the Savior's way. Not all of us can be on the highest plane all of the time so it really is a need to have good teachers.

 

[zionssuburb@gmail.com]

It will never work if we continue teaching in the 'old model' - much like Come Follow Me for Youth failed miserably enough that a new (teaching the savior's way) had to be created to try and counter the ensconced traditionally way of doing things.