the women's quorum - can you find a way?

[blueglass]

19 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

However they were insufficient to keep up with just the buildings they were trying to maintain. How big something is doesn't matter if your necessary expenditures are larger.

At least the RS had a credit score back then.  Today, there are no assets to speak of managed by the RS, or direct revenue generation activities to allow for the greater opportunity to influence.  I can go to my father and ask to borrow $100k, and he very well may entertain my request with a detailed plan of how it will be used and the benefits derived from the investment same for women as for men.  However, it is something else entirely to show up with a detailed cash flow statement divided by gender with  rapid growth activities for females, and rapid decline for male contributions over a 5-year forecast and say that with a net present value of $2.5B annually, she (Bingham) as general RS president absolutely must have more influence over how these funds are spent.  We can't demand anything from a presiding quorum comprised of all men, but we hope for changes to representation - if anything grounded in a hope that by adding women to the apostolic Junia cohort,  the general intelligence performance scores will skyrocket.  

Edited February 4, 2019 by blueglass

[clarkgoble]

Just now, blueglass said:

At least the RS had a credit score back then.

I don't think there were credit scores then. That was really before the ubiquity of 20th century finance. That's ultimately McDannell's point. The Relief Society simply couldn't function in the modern world. It was oriented around a fairly primitive isolated agrarian model. For the Relief Society to have functioned as you outline it would have had to do a lot more teaching women about finance and so forth - something they weren't willing to do for various reasons.

Quote

Today, there are no assets to speak of managed by the RS, or revenue generation activities to allow for the greater opportunity to influence. 

Finances are centralized for sure, although again I think there are good practical reasons for that. What would the contemporary Relief Society's revenue stream be? I think there's a case for putting the Relief Society more into the service area of the Presiding Bishopric, but the 19th century model just never coming back due to its problem with the contemporary world. I'm honestly surprised when people want it back.

As I said, I'd certainly favor a larger role for the Relief Society board including more meeting with the Presiding Bishopric and the Apostles. I personally expect some of that. But making the Relief Society independent doesn't really make a lot of sense that I can see. I think what's needed are more women's voices in important counsels not independence.

[pogi]

33 minutes ago, blueglass said:

An 11 year old deacon and a 13 year old teacher can now become president of a quorum of young men and become 2 of the 4 in a ward which hold priesthood keys.  Do we have an equivalent responsibility for the presidents of the beehives and MIA maids  classes? 

These are priesthood keys, of course there is not an equivalent with the young women.  Are you suggesting that women should be given the priesthood (something I am open to if it is revealed)?   But until then, why should there be an equivalent if they don't hold the priesthood?   Not even the Young Men's president holds these keys - should they be complaining of inequality too?  We should all just serve where we are called and not be too worried about not holding "equivalent" priesthood keys and holding equivalent responsibilities.  Running a ship requires many different roles, they are not all equal, but they are all critical.

Edited February 4, 2019 by pogi

[clarkgoble]

16 minutes ago, pogi said:

These are priesthood keys, of course there is not an equivalent with the young women.  Are you suggesting that women should be given the priesthood (something I am open to if it is revealed)?   But until then, why should there be an equivalent if they don't hold the priesthood?   Not even the Young Men's president holds these keys - should they be complaining of inequality too?  We should all just serve where we are called and not be too worried about not holding "equivalent" priesthood keys and holding equivalent responsibilities.  Running a ship requires many different roles, they are not all equal, but they are all critical.

I think Elder Oaks' recent talk is relevant here. I don't think it gets the attention it deserves. His argument is any permission to do anything in the Church whether it be man or woman is due to priesthood keys. So I think the distinction you're trying to make doesn't hold up if Oaks' views are correct. I tend to agree with those who see Oaks comments as doctrinally new although it's not clear whether they'll hold up over time. (I suspect they will due to his role in the Church as well as his place in the First Presidency and potentially as Prophet)

[pogi]

25 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I think Elder Oaks' recent talk is relevant here. I don't think it gets the attention it deserves. His argument is any permission to do anything in the Church whether it be man or woman is due to priesthood keys. So I think the distinction you're trying to make doesn't hold up if Oaks' views are correct. I tend to agree with those who see Oaks comments as doctrinally new although it's not clear whether they'll hold up over time. (I suspect they will due to his role in the Church as well as his place in the First Presidency and potentially as Prophet)

I don't think what he said is doctrinaly new, and I do think the distinction holds up.  

Here is the part you seem to be referring to:

Quote

“Priesthood keys are the authority God has given to priesthood [holders] to direct, control, and govern the use of His priesthood on earth.”

“Priesthood keys are the authority God has given to priesthood [holders] to direct, control, and govern the use of His priesthood on earth.”4 Every act or ordinance performed in the Church is done under the direct or indirect authorization of one holding the keys for that function. As Elder M. Russell Ballard has explained, “Those who have priesthood keys … literally make it possible for all who serve faithfully under their direction to exercise priesthood authority and have access to priesthood power.”5

There is a very clear distinction that he makes.  Only priesthood holders hold the keys of the priesthood, which is the authority to "direct, control, and govern the use of His priesthood on earth".

All others who perform any role, perform them "under their direction" - speaking of the key holders.  

This is not new doctrine, and there is no equivalency in young women.   

The part that some might be interpreting as new doctrine is that those who serve "under" priesthood key holders, actually exercise priesthood authority and have access to priesthood power (I still don't think that is new doctrine though).  Either way, there is still a distinction between those who hold keys and those who serve under them, as there always has been. 

Edited February 4, 2019 by pogi

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, blueglass said:

An 11 year old deacon and a 13 year old teacher can now become president of a quorum of young men and become 2 of the 4 in a ward which hold priesthood keys.  Do we have an equivalent responsibility for the presidents of the beehives and MIA maids  classes?   If we called the young men quorums: 11 - 13, the "Ants", the 13-15y/o the "Silver coders", and the 15 - 17 y/o the "Asteroids" how would this fly when trying to portray equality in how we perceive young men and young women?  

I believe the YW do have equivalent responsibility to the YM.  The RS president does not hold keys, for example, but her responsibility is no less than that of the EQ president.  The keys are not what are necessary for equal responsibility.  In fact, up until a few months ago,  her responsibility was much greater than that of the EQ president, despite him having keys and her not.  Now they are pretty equal.

I don't see how a change in the names of the priesthood quorums would make much difference in terms of equality either.  

More so, I believe that our perceptions of equality between young women and men are actually hurt by the idea that in order for YW to be seen as equal, we need to find ways for them to function more like the YM do.  Part of the problem with gender equality in the church, from my perspective, is the idea (which largely comes from the secular feminist movement of earlier decades) that where men are, and what men have, is the ultimate goal and that women can only be seen as equal to men as they move closer and closer to that end.  

 

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

There is a very clear distinction that he makes.  Only priesthood holders hold the keys of the priesthood, which is the authority to "direct, control, and govern the use of His priesthood on earth".

All others who perform any role, perform them "under their direction" - speaking of the key holders.  

This is not new doctrine, and there is no equivalency in young women.   

I think you're missing the point I was raising. When deacons, priests or teachers do something, they're doing it because the key holder (the Bishop) permits it. So their authority, including the authority of the Deacon's president, is really due to the Bishop's authority. Likewise when in young womens anyone does anything it's exactly the same thing. What this does is make a distinction between office, keys and ecclesiastical priesthood. The deacons have priesthood in our language but they don't have keys in the sense of being able to grant permissions.

In this view then keys in the sense of being able to grant permissions are held by Bishops, Stake Presidents, and General Authorities. Others who might be said to have priesthood don't have it in that sense. In that use, there's really no difference between what happens among the young women or the young men.

Now this idea of keys in one hand is not novel. In an other sense the thrust he gives it where a Relief Society President is functioning in priesthood the same as say a Deacons quorum President is pretty new. It also raises the issue of the formation of the Relief Society and the infamous statement about turning keys over. What's most novel about what Oaks says is that he makes this distinction between priesthood and keys that most don't make. Although he leaves some issues tantilizingly unanalyzed.

Again I'm not making any claims that Oaks view will hold up, although it does make one wonder what changes he can make based upon the implications.

Edited February 4, 2019 by clarkgoble

[JAHS]

2 hours ago, blueglass said:

Does anyone have an organizational chart for how this works?  It would make sense that RS general presidency reports directly to the PEC.  That's how I understood things until I heard this interview.  Now I'm not sure.  

Here's a couple charts. One made by Elaine Cannon and another made by me a while ago.

Both show the Relief Society (Auxiliary Organization) as under the direction of the Q12 (PEC). I assume it hasn't changed much since these charts were made.

 

[CMZ]

Well, at church today our ward had what I believe was its first Linger Longer, at least for as long as I've been in it. People were gathering in the cultural hall, food was getting set out, and people were starting to look ravenous. While this was going on and nobody was wanting to eat without a prayer being said the bishop walks in and I said to him, "So, are we going to start with a prayer?" He said, "Uh... no, I don't think we need a prayer. You know, like how we don't start priesthood with one now." I then thought, "Maybe I'll go over to the table and start nibbling and that'll get others to finally do the same." So I went over to the table and the ward relief society president happened to be there and I told her, "Bishop says we don't need to start with a prayer." She looked at me and goes, "Oh, no. We are GOING to have a prayer." She then went over to the bishop and a moment later the ward was being called to order to have a prayer over the food first.

I don't know exactly how things will go with the Relief Society under President Nelson, but I wouldn't be surprised one bit if the Relief Society gets more autonomy while he is the prophet. And could he direct them to start giving blessings again? Maybe. Men need the priesthood conferred on them to achieve exaltation; women do not. This is clear in the temple. Women not having the priesthood conferred upon them in the way men do does not mean they are less valued in God's eyes. However, I often thought, "Well, they seem to be dependent on men for priesthood blessings." Again, I don't know exactly what may or may not happen, but I could see a change coming in this regard.

[blueglass]

On 2/4/2019 at 2:58 PM, clarkgoble said:

I don't think there were credit scores then. That was really before the ubiquity of 20th century finance. That's ultimately McDannell's point. The Relief Society simply couldn't function in the modern world. It was oriented around a fairly primitive isolated agrarian model. For the Relief Society to have functioned as you outline it would have had to do a lot more teaching women about finance and so forth - something they weren't willing to do for various reasons.

Finances are centralized for sure, although again I think there are good practical reasons for that. What would the contemporary Relief Society's revenue stream be? I think there's a case for putting the Relief Society more into the service area of the Presiding Bishopric, but the 19th century model just never coming back due to its problem with the contemporary world. I'm honestly surprised when people want it back.

As I said, I'd certainly favor a larger role for the Relief Society board including more meeting with the Presiding Bishopric and the Apostles. I personally expect some of that. But making the Relief Society independent doesn't really make a lot of sense that I can see. I think what's needed are more women's voices in important counsels not independence.

I think you have misunderstood.  I am not petitioning for independence, I am declaring the obvious that women work and do pay tithing and should have a voice for how it is administered at the highest levels.  Women's voices are not heard if they do not have real representation on the apostolic quorum.  

[blueglass]

On 2/4/2019 at 5:01 PM, JAHS said:

Here's a couple charts. One made by Elaine Cannon and another made by me a while ago.

Both show the Relief Society (Auxiliary Organization) as under the direction of the Q12 (PEC). I assume it hasn't changed much since these charts were made.

 

Bookcraft, Mormonhaven.com -  where is the org chart from lds.org ?  

This chart here from lds.org lists the gen relief society presidency under the presiding bishopric level in the hierarchy which correlates well with what Kate Holbrook said in the interview with Terryl, and with the compensation salaries administered $125k/annual to only general authority officers who are males.

https://www.lds.org/church/leaders?lang=eng

 

Edited February 24, 2019 by blueglass

[JLHPROF]

46 minutes ago, blueglass said:

I am declaring the obvious that women work and do pay tithing and should have a voice for how it is administered at the highest levels. 

Why?

I  work and pay tithing and have no voice in how it is administered.  I fail to see this obvious thing you speak of.

Tithe payers have no say in how it's used nor should they.  That's not how tithing works.

[Tacenda]

55 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Why?

I  work and pay tithing and have no voice in how it is administered.  I fail to see this obvious thing you speak of.

Tithe payers have no say in how it's used nor should they.  That's not how tithing works.

I think he means if they get called into leadership positions such as the men and their voices heard, per se.

[JAHS]

6 hours ago, blueglass said:

Bookcraft, Mormonhaven.com -  where is the org chart from lds.org ?  

This chart here from lds.org lists the gen relief society presidency under the presiding bishopric level in the hierarchy which correlates well with what Kate Holbrook said in the interview with Terryl, and with the compensation salaries administered $125k/annual to only general authority officers who are males.

https://www.lds.org/church/leaders?lang=eng

 

Their photos just happen to be under the Presiding Bishopric in that chart (which doesn't say anything about hierarchy). The presiding Bishopric has a higher authority than the General Relief Society and so are shown before them, but the RS is under the direction of and reports to the Quorum of 12 Apostles. 

Edited to add: Since 2018 members of the General Relief Society have been serving on the four Quorum of the Twelve Executive councils. 

Edited February 25, 2019 by JAHS

[clarkgoble]

On 2/4/2019 at 12:42 PM, blueglass said:

An 11 year old deacon and a 13 year old teacher can now become president of a quorum of young men and become 2 of the 4 in a ward which hold priesthood keys.  Do we have an equivalent responsibility for the presidents of the beehives and MIA maids  classes?   If we called the young men quorums: 11 - 13, the "Ants", the 13-15y/o the "Silver coders", and the 15 - 17 y/o the "Asteroids" how would this fly when trying to portray equality in how we perceive young men and young women?  

I assumed they had similar structures. If they don't I'd lay really, really good odds than when the new Young Women's and Young Men's programs get announced as we leave scouts thankfully behind will include such structures. Not quite sure about the complaint over names here although I'm certainly open to change there. I don't see "beehive" as somehow problematic especially given the history of the symbol in the Church. Mia Maids I'll admit I don't like just because of the connotation of "maid."

[blueglass]

On 2/24/2019 at 1:46 PM, JLHPROF said:

Why?

I  work and pay tithing and have no voice in how it is administered.  I fail to see this obvious thing you speak of.

Tithe payers have no say in how it's used nor should they.  That's not how tithing works.

For 2018 if a stake with say 4k members receives $7.0M in tithes, and has ~ $500k in fast offering expenses, and $60k in stake budget funds (an example) then we're looking at 92% of local revenue going to SLC.  What does it cost to run the utilities, lighting, heating, and AC for the facilities?  Everyone serves in the stake on a volunteer basis with the exception of CES employees ($75k/annual), facilities managers ($85k/annual), and therapists for LDS family services ($100k/annual for PhD, and $80k/annual with MS).  Each major temple has an employee hired to run records management ($100k/annual), and then additional services provided by contractors and materials for repairs and maintenance ~$200k annual for a stake.   If we have say 10 employees/stake in CES in Utah, we would have $750k + 85k+100k+80k+1/10*100k in payroll = $1.015M/stake.  With 200k in service repairs and maintenance we are still at a modest 17% in local cost to provide the system of services.  Each person on payroll provides services to the members paid by tithing and offerings.  At the executive level it was only as of 2015 that women were invited to have a voice and only as advisors. Ultimately the tithing is controlled primarily by men which is unfortunate.  By sustaining the leadership in solemn assemblies and temple recommend interviews we are placing our trust that they will do a good job.  

Edited February 26, 2019 by blueglass

[blueglass]

7 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

I assumed they had similar structures. If they don't I'd lay really, really good odds than when the new Young Women's and Young Men's programs get announced as we leave scouts thankfully behind will include such structures. Not quite sure about the complaint over names here although I'm certainly open to change there. I don't see "beehive" as somehow problematic especially given the history of the symbol in the Church. Mia Maids I'll admit I don't like just because of the connotation of "maid."

There is a lot of interesting beehive structure, complexity, history, etc.  Proverbs 6:6 for ants.   Do you see the problem though that Beehive president and MIA Maiden president holds no keys whereas Deacons and Teachers do?  Deacons, Teachers quorum presidents even have initialed thrones in the Kirtland Temple for them to sit upon in addition to scriptures in our canon which delineate their duties and responsibilities.  

Edited February 26, 2019 by blueglass

[blueglass]

On 2/24/2019 at 6:54 PM, JAHS said:

Their photos just happen to be under the Presiding Bishopric in that chart (which doesn't say anything about hierarchy). The presiding Bishopric has a higher authority than the General Relief Society and so are shown before them, but the RS is under the direction of and reports to the Quorum of 12 Apostles. 

Edited to add: Since 2018 members of the General Relief Society have been serving on the four Quorum of the Twelve Executive councils. 

From what I read on this 2015 Elder Oaks announced that the gen RS president was now invited to the Priesthood and exec council.  Gen YW pres to the missionary exec council, and gen Primary pres to temple and family history exec council.  In 2018 they added the 4th (Correlation ?).   I'm glad this happened.  Will help for sure, and through participation on these councils they can influence many matters, including putting in a word on how budgets  are spent I believe?  

[blueglass]

On 2/4/2019 at 4:28 PM, bluebell said:

I don't see how a change in the names of the priesthood quorums would make much difference in terms of equality either.  

Changing the names of the boys priesthood quorum is a teaser to how I feel about the names for the daughters classes.  For me offices, keys, and ordinances performed in the temple, ecclesia and home matter a lot for how we raise our sons and daughters.  They notice when young men are asked in sacrament meeting by the bishop for a sustaining vote to ordination to the office of deacon, teacher, priest, elder.  Thomas Wayment does not overlook the rich scholarship on Phoebe, Junia, and others in his notes on Romans 16 in his new translation effort. 

https://deseretbook.com/p/rsc-the-new-testament-a-new-translation-for-latter-day-saints-a-study-bible?variant_id=174385-hardcover

Why is it so rare to find in any Relief Society manuals, lessons, or conference talks references to JS discourse to the RS on 31 March 1842?  "Said he was going to make of this Society a kingdom of priests an in Enoch’s day— as in Pauls day"  I search the general conference corpus and nothing.  Search LDS.org and the references are exceedingly rare.  

 

Edited February 26, 2019 by blueglass

[clarkgoble]

15 hours ago, blueglass said:

Do you see the problem though that Beehive president and MIA Maiden president holds no keys whereas Deacons and Teachers do?  Deacons, Teachers quorum presidents even have initialed thrones in the Kirtland Temple for them to sit upon in addition to scriptures in our canon which delineate their duties and responsibilities.  

What keys do you think Deacons and Teachers have that young women don't?

I'd read Elder Oaks here first.

• The understanding we seek begins with an understanding of the keys of the priesthood. “Priesthood keys are the authority God has given to priesthood [holders] to direct, control, and govern the use of His priesthood on earth.”⁴Every act or ordinance performed in the Church is done under the direct or indirect authorization of one holding the keys for that function. As Elder M. Russell Ballard has explained, “Those who have priesthood keys … literally make it possible for all who serve faithfully under their direction to exercise priesthood authority and have access to priesthood power.”

Edited February 26, 2019 by clarkgoble

[jpv]

On 2/25/2019 at 6:53 PM, blueglass said:

.  Thomas Wayment does not overlook the rich scholarship on Phoebe, Junia, and others in his notes on Romans 16 in his new translation effort. 

https://deseretbook.com/p/rsc-the-new-testament-a-new-translation-for-latter-day-saints-a-study-bible?variant_id=174385-hardcover

 

Yes he does. Even the KVJ language is open to the possibility that Junia is included among the apostles. The TWV just says she was well-known to the apostles. That his footnotes don't even clarify that this is a possibility is one of my chief criticisms of the book.

[blueglass]

8 hours ago, jpv said:

Yes he does. Even the KVJ language is open to the possibility that Junia is included among the apostles. The TWV just says she was well-known to the apostles. That his footnotes don't even clarify that this is a possibility is one of my chief criticisms of the book.

Apologize for this mistake.  I don't have the edition as I just use the LDSview software with wordcruncher to get to interlinear greek with Scrivener/Westcott-Hort/NA26..27, or other bible sites to compare translations.  He mentions in an interview that in the notes he doesn't pull punches and references translation disputes from the greek NT in his notes.  

LDS Perspectives Episode 98 Translation of the New Testament with Thomas A. Wayment interview with Laura Hales.
http://www.ldsperspectives.com/2018/11/21/translation-new-testament/

"There is also this other question LDS are very keen on the language of authority, ordination, blessings, priesthood, and I wanted to be sensitive to that.  I wanted to be aware and help recover that to help people see where the office of deacon comes from and not strangely but fascinatingly the office of deacon originates in the female roles of women in the church. . She is a deacon (Phoebe), she serves in that capacity and later male deacons will model there service off that.  I have tried to in the notes to try to call attention to that.   Here is the first usage of the word deacon, here is the first noun.  I thought that lds would benefit by that."

Is there an expansive note on rom16:1 for phoebe?  Pliny the younger speaks of deaconesses in his letters.

For rom 16:7 for Junia, he's out in left field on this one with "well known to".  The word is strong's 1722 en (a preposition) – properly, in (inside, within); (figuratively) "in the realm (sphere) of," as in the condition (state) in which something operates from the inside (within)

There are only 3 translations that translate "episemos en tois apostolois" like he has with to or by, (ESV, CEV, NET).  

New International Version
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

New Living Translation
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews, who were in prison with me. They are highly respected among the apostles and became followers of Christ before I did.

English Standard Version
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.

Berean Study Bible
Greet Andronicus and Junias, my fellow countrymen and fellow prisoners. They are distinguished among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

Berean Literal Bible
Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, and who were in Christ before me.

New American Standard Bible 
Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

King James Bible
Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Christian Standard Bible
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews and fellow prisoners. They are noteworthy in the eyes of the apostles, and they were also in Christ before me.

Contemporary English Version
Greet my relatives Andronicus and Junia, who were in jail with me. They are highly respected by the apostles and were followers of Christ before I was. 

Good News Translation
Greetings also to Andronicus and Junia, fellow Jews who were in prison with me; they are well known among the apostles, and they became Christians before I did. 

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow countrymen and fellow prisoners. They are noteworthy in the eyes of the apostles, and they were also in Christ before me. 

International Standard Version
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who are in prison with me and are prominent among the apostles. They belonged to the Messiah before I did. 

NET Bible
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my compatriots and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.

New Heart English Bible
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives and my fellow prisoners, who are notable among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Invoke the peace of Andronicus and of Junia, my relatives who were captives with me and were known by The Apostles and they were in The Messiah before me.

For me I think the office or gift of the apostleship is more grounded on seeking the best gifts from 1Cor12 and not solely on the egalitarian reading from Lightfoot on the Rom16:7 passage.  We can see clearly with Mary Magdalene called to be an apostle to the apostles "10 It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.
11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not."  (Luke 24:10–11)  When the men with these offices "believed them not" they temporarily lost their gift of apostleship.  The gift then passes to another as per Galatians 3:28.  The light saber in Star wars flys to or is attracted to Rey not Kylo Ren - the one with training and pedigree (line of authority).  

Edited March 15, 2019 by blueglass