Is the Temple card worth it?

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, snowflake said:

What are the requirements to become worthy? I mean specifically, the bible tells us that no on one is righteous, not even one.

¹⁰ As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Romans 3:10

And Psalm 14:3 tells us as well:

They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Why do the LDS temple holders consider themselves "worthy before God"?   I submit that you are not worthy, no one is.

Worthiness and purity is not a concept unique to LDS Christianity.  The Bible is full of "worthiness" requirements.


I John 3:And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Psalms 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? or who shall stand in his holy place?
4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

2 Thes 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[thesometimesaint]

Temple Recommend Questions.

SEE http://www.lds-mormon.com/veilworker/recommend.shtml

If you can answer the questions honestly and correctly you are worthy to go to the Temple.

[snowflake]

57 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Worthiness and purity is not a concept unique to LDS Christianity.  The Bible is full of "worthiness" requirements.


I John 3:And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Psalms 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? or who shall stand in his holy place?
4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

2 Thes 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

I certainly don't consider "being worthy" as set of requirements. I think that we would agree that we are made pure by the blood of Jesus Christ, and that we are only considered "worthy" because of his works,  not from out own effort, or us deserving anything, and certainly not from a checklist the bishop asks us about.

To me it is more of an attitude, and with the LDS I get the attitude of pride coming from their claim that they are worthy.  A humble submission to the Lord with thanks and praise to him is the attitude one should have.  I would never consider myself worthy of anything he offers me....I am a hopeless sinner period...it is all from his goodness and grace and love that I am able to accept his work on the cross as a gift to me.  

 

[thesometimesaint]

So he was lying when he gave the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats?

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, snowflake said:

I certainly don't consider "being worthy" as set of requirements. I think that we would agree that we are made pure by the blood of Jesus Christ, and that we are only considered "worthy" because of his works,  not from out own effort, or us deserving anything, and certainly not from a checklist the bishop asks us about.

To me it is more of an attitude, and with the LDS I get the attitude of pride coming from their claim that they are worthy.  A humble submission to the Lord with thanks and praise to him is the attitude one should have.  I would never consider myself worthy of anything he offers me....I am a hopeless sinner period...it is all from his goodness and grace and love that I am able to accept his work on the cross as a gift to me.

 

I also consider myself a hopeless sinner and recognize my complete dependence upon Christ.
However, I don't believe for one second that absolves me of any effort. 

The scripture I quoted from John says those who have hope in Christ purifieth themselves.  Not sit around because Christ has already done it.
Clearly both Christ's sacrifice AND our own efforts are required.  And Luke 21 commands us to pray always that we will be worthy.

[snowflake]

59 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Temple Recommend Questions.

SEE http://www.lds-mormon.com/veilworker/recommend.shtml

If you can answer the questions honestly and correctly you are worthy to go to the Temple.

Thanks Saint, wow that is quite a list, not sure anyone would be worthy according to that list, especially number 7: which states:

 

7. Do you earnestly strive to do your duty in the Church; to attend your sacrament, priesthood, and other meetings; and to obey the rules, laws, and commandments of the gospel?

I'm assuming the commands of the gospel include the 10 commandments?

[snowflake]

10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I also consider myself a hopeless sinner and recognize my complete dependence upon Christ.
However, I don't believe for one second that absolves me of any effort. 

The scripture I quoted from John says those who have hope in Christ purifieth themselves.  Not sit around because Christ has already done it.
Clearly both Christ's sacrifice AND our own efforts are required.  And Luke 21 commands us to pray always that we will be worthy.

Filthy rags........your works are not impressive to God.

Isaiah 64:6

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

[JLHPROF]

10 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Filthy rags........your works are not impressive to God.

Isaiah 64:6

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Deflection.
Don't like one scripture, switch to another.  Pure prooftexting.
Perhaps attempt to explain I John 3 and Luke 21 instead of deflecting.

[JLHPROF]

14 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Thanks Saint, wow that is quite a list, not sure anyone would be worthy according to that list, especially number 7: which states:

 

7. Do you earnestly strive to do your duty in the Church; to attend your sacrament, priesthood, and other meetings; and to obey the rules, laws, and commandments of the gospel?

I'm assuming the commands of the gospel include the 10 commandments?

Strive means do your best.  Nobody has to be perfect except Christ.

[snowflake]

20 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I also consider myself a hopeless sinner and recognize my complete dependence upon Christ.
However, I don't believe for one second that absolves me of any effort. 

The scripture I quoted from John says those who have hope in Christ purifieth themselves.  Not sit around because Christ has already done it.
Clearly both Christ's sacrifice AND our own efforts are required.  And Luke 21 commands us to pray always that we will be worthy.

We both know that the gospel of the LDS church and the gospel of the bible are different. 

The two different gospels can be easily summed up in a few verses:  In Mormonism: 23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. 2Nephi chapter 25:23

In Christianity: Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

And Ephesians 2:8-9

⁸ For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

⁹ Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For the Mormon, one must work ("after all we can do") and endure to the end for salvation (celestial kingdom).  For the Christian our work or good fruits is produced because we have already been saved by Jesus.  

Another way to look at it: Mormons must change their attitude, beliefs and behavior to be acceptable to God. This philosophy is no different than any other religion out there save Christianity.

Christians accept Jesus as lord and savior up front, knowing we are not worthy of him, and he then changes the individual. He makes dead men  and women (spiritually dead) come alive! 

 

[snowflake]

14 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Strive means do your best.  Nobody has to be perfect except Christ.

Read it again.

7. Do you earnestly strive to do your duty in the Church; to attend your sacrament, priesthood, and other meetings; and to obey the rules, laws, and commandments of the gospel?

It says to obey. Are you really obeying all the commandments of the gospel?

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, snowflake said:

We both know that the gospel of the LDS church and the gospel of the bible are different.

The two different gospels can be easily summed up in a few verses:  In Mormonism: 23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. 2Nephi chapter 25:23

In Christianity: Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

And Ephesians 2:8-9

⁸ For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

⁹ Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For the Mormon, one must work ("after all we can do") and endure to the end for salvation (celestial kingdom).  For the Christian our work or good fruits is produced because we have already been saved by Jesus.  

Another way to look at it: Mormons must change their attitude, beliefs and behavior to be acceptable to God. This philosophy is no different than any other religion out there save Christianity.

Christians accept Jesus as lord and savior up front, knowing we are not worthy of him, and he then changes the individual. He makes dead men  and women (spiritually dead) come alive! 

 

And another deflection.
Very well done.  You cannot win an argument raised by one scripture by ignoring it and quoting another.

[snowflake]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

And another deflection.
Very well done.  You cannot win an argument raised by one scripture by ignoring it and quoting another.

 

Fair enough, in regards to the Luke passage.

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

You sure know how to cherry pick! The entire chapter is about the return of Jesus in the last days. Are you implying that if you pray always you will be worthy?

And in 1 John 3, John is not talking about working to purify yourself, If you have accepted Christ and believe in him you are pure. Context is important JLHPROF!

3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

² Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

³ And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

⁴ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

⁵ And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

⁶ Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, snowflake said:

I certainly don't consider "being worthy" as set of requirements. I think that we would agree that we are made pure by the blood of Jesus Christ, and that we are only considered "worthy" because of his works,  not from out own effort, or us deserving anything, and certainly not from a checklist the bishop asks us about.

To me it is more of an attitude, and with the LDS I get the attitude of pride coming from their claim that they are worthy.  A humble submission to the Lord with thanks and praise to him is the attitude one should have.  I would never consider myself worthy of anything he offers me....I am a hopeless sinner period...it is all from his goodness and grace and love that I am able to accept his work on the cross as a gift to me.  

I think you need to know more LDS if you imagine that temple worthiness is a source of pride for many of us. I find it incredibly rare.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, snowflake said:

Filthy rags........your works are not impressive to God.

Isaiah 64:6

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Read the verse before:

"Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved."

We go to the Temple to meet God.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, snowflake said:

Read it again.

7. Do you earnestly strive to do your duty in the Church; to attend your sacrament, priesthood, and other meetings; and to obey the rules, laws, and commandments of the gospel?

It says to obey. Are you really obeying all the commandments of the gospel?

It says "strive to do your duty". One can be striving but not completely successful.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, snowflake said:

We both know that the gospel of the LDS church and the gospel other Christians teach are different. 

Fixed that for you.

[Raingirl]

10 hours ago, snowflake said:

I certainly don't consider "being worthy" as set of requirements. I think that we would agree that we are made pure by the blood of Jesus Christ, and that we are only considered "worthy" because of his works,  not from out own effort, or us deserving anything, and certainly not from a checklist the bishop asks us about.

To me it is more of an attitude, and with the LDS I get the attitude of pride coming from their claim that they are worthy.  A humble submission to the Lord with thanks and praise to him is the attitude one should have.  I would never consider myself worthy of anything he offers me....I am a hopeless sinner period...it is all from his goodness and grace and love that I am able to accept his work on the cross as a gift to me.  

 

#humblebrag

[Garden Girl]

16 hours ago, snowflake said:

We both know that the gospel of the LDS church and the gospel of the bible are different. 

The two different gospels can be easily summed up in a few verses:  In Mormonism: 23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. 2Nephi chapter 25:23

In Christianity: Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

And Ephesians 2:8-9

⁸ For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

⁹ Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For the Mormon, one must work ("after all we can do") and endure to the end for salvation (celestial kingdom).  For the Christian our work or good fruits is produced because we have already been saved by Jesus.  

Another way to look at it: Mormons must change their attitude, beliefs and behavior to be acceptable to God. This philosophy is no different than any other religion out there save Christianity.

Christians accept Jesus as lord and savior up front, knowing we are not worthy of him, and he then changes the individual. He makes dead men  and women (spiritually dead) come alive! 

 

Hello Snowflake...

The grace v. works discussion has been covered here numerous times with each faction cherry-picking scriptures to support their view...  Well, in regard to works, some of my favorite passages include Rev. 20:12-13...

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which was the the book of life; and the dead were judged out of those things that were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead that were in them; and they were judged every man according to their works."

Mormons do believe that it is through the gift of grace that we are saved...  This has been discussed so often I won't bother to quote all the LDS canon/writings that clearly state that it is only the grace of Jesus Christ that makes salvation possible.  But we have a responsibility to follow the commandments such as repenting, being baptized, etc. (and including the ten commandments).

GG

 

 

Edited January 27, 2017 by Garden Girl

[emeliza]

I thought this was the social forum....no debating allowed.  

[Hestia]

No debating in the social hall.  Start a new thread in the other forum before you get this one shut down.

[thesometimesaint]

On 1/26/2017 at 11:12 AM, snowflake said:

Thanks Saint, wow that is quite a list, not sure anyone would be worthy according to that list, especially number 7: which states:

 

7. Do you earnestly strive to do your duty in the Church; to attend your sacrament, priesthood, and other meetings; and to obey the rules, laws, and commandments of the gospel?

I'm assuming the commands of the gospel include the 10 commandments?

Number seven is perhaps the easiest to follow. Yes it includes the 10 Commandments.

My health issues prevent me from always attending my meetings, but I still have my Temple Recommend. I attend when I can.

[Freedom]

On 1/16/2017 at 1:24 PM, Garden Girl said:

 

You are correct that workers are there to help make your visit as pleasant as possible by helping with directions, names, lockers etc etc.  But they are also there to help you with any questions... they will answer or call the temple matron... or, a member of the presidency (at least one of whom is always on duty, including to be available for such instances of answering questions).

I want to refer you to two of my favorite articles (I may have told you about them previously) that I highly recommend that you read...

1)  Early Christian and Jewish Rituals Related to Temple Worship... by John A. Tvedtnes (still available online I believe, originally published by FAIR, 1999).

2)  The Hand As A Cup In Ancient Temple Worship... by Dr. Lynn M. Hilton (from the 30th Annual Symposium on the Archaeology of the Scriptures - 9/26/1981).

If you can't find either of these, send me a PM...

GG

Thanks for these references. Both were very insightful. 

[theplains]

On 14/01/2017 at 7:40 PM, senjustindiaz said:

..., but viewing a film and passing through the veil into a room where you are supposed to ask all the "questions". Yet there is no one to answer any of them is quite daunting.

What do you mean?

Thanks,
Jim

[Tacenda]

5 hours ago, theplains said:

What do you mean?

Thanks,
Jim

Just what he said, no one around to offer help if you have questions. I would have appreciated that so much. Maybe he didn't get the memo that we go to the temple to receive answers, but these answers come from ourselves through revelation from the spirit I guess.