Jump to content


  • Posts

  • Joined

  • Last visited

Everything posted by theplains

  1. I have a question regarding this talk. Emphasizing that “absolute truth — eternal truth” exists, President Nelson, who is revered by members of the faith as a prophet, assured listeners during the opening session of conference that “what you will hear today and tomorrow constitutes pure truth.” What of past General Conferences too? Should messages supposedly from the Lord through His servants that were spoken at those conferences also to have been accepted as pure truth? The reason I ask is because the church (in the 1928 GC) taught the Hill Cumorah and the Hill Ramah are the same place; where two great battles took place. https://ia800700.us.archive.org/6/items/conferencereport1928a/conferencereport1928a.pdf Jim
  2. I purchased mine for about $25. It's also online for free. https://www.xristian.org/ft/mormbomtext.pdf
  3. Does that mean you believe some members of the Church of the Firstborn won't be gods?
  4. I would say that the name of "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" and the "Church of the Firstborn" refer to two different churches; for only exalted beings are said to be members of the latter (D&C 76:54-60).
  5. Do you believe Joseph Smith ascended to heaven like the hymn "Praise to the Man" indicates?
  6. Does verse 57 mean that all LDS elders, starting from Joseph Smith onwards, are still preaching in the spirit world?
  7. President Dallin H. Oaks defined it as such. "God has given His children moral agency—the power to decide and to act." This is also defined in a BYU speech in 2006. "When we use the term moral agency, then, we are appropriately emphasizing the accountability that is an essential part of the divine gift of agency. We are moral beings and agents unto ourselves, free to choose but also responsible for our choices."
  8. I apologize if this violates the board's policy of "no politics" but I think its ok since I don't focus on specific political parties and their beliefs. I read this article in the recent General Conference talk. Without a Bill of Rights, America could not have served as the host nation for the Restoration of the gospel, which began just three decades later. How so? How does the gospel spread in communist countries where there is no Bill of Rights? What else are faithful Latter-day Saints to do? We must pray for the Lord to guide and bless all nations and their leaders. This is part of our article of faith. Being subject to presidents or rulers (7) of course poses no obstacle to our opposing individual laws or policies. Point 7 refers to Articles of Faith 1:12 - We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. Is there a difference between law and policy and that is why "policy" is excluded from the article of faith? Are there examples of laws or policies that a person can be subject to a President or King in obeying, honoring, sustaining them but at the same time opposing said laws or policies? Jim
  9. @InCognitus and I were involved in a discussion in another thread but I wanted to start a new one as we were moving away from the topic of that thread. https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/73894-hie-to-kolob-lyrics/page/3/?tab=comments#comment-1210050277 Why does it seem like a lot of modern Protestant Christians are distancing themselves from the doctrine that Jesus is the "firstborn" of the Father, that he was begotten of God from the beginning? This is, or was at one time, a central tenant of creedal Christianity. I don't believe firstborn or begotten in that context means being born of a Heavenly Mother and Father in some marriage relationship. I don't see anything in the scriptures where Jesus is ever anything less than the Eternal God. The use of begotten also has other contexts. "God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee" (Acts 13:33). "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? (Hebrew 1:5). "So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee (Hebrews 5:5). "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood" (Revelation 1:5). The fact that there are other meanings of "firstborn" in scripture does not mean that "firstborn" does not mean "first born": Except when it does, for example: Luke 2:7 "And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes..." I agree. In this context, Jesus is the first born son of Mary. The church's training manual (Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel - Student Manual) refers to this as a Celestial Sireship; not a violation of natural law but a higher manifestion of it. I found these four biblical passages about the term "firstborn": Joseph, though not the firstborn of Jacob, received the inheritance as though he were the firstborn (1 Chr. 5:1–2). Exodus 4:22 says, "And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn." Speaking of David, Psalm 89:27 says, "Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth." Jeremiah 31:9 says, "They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." What does firstborn mean in the above verses? Do you believe Jesus was "begotten before the worlds"? I hope I explained it earlier. I believe begotten in this sense is a future picture of his incarnation. You alluded to Colossians 1:18, but the context of the passage puts Jesus as "the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature" (verse 15), and "he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." Clearly there are literal and figurative ways to understand "firstborn" going on here. And before the beginning, before creation, Jesus was the "firstbegotten" of the Father. Firstborn in this case is not first born in the sense of a male and female union. There are several LDS scriptural passages where Jesus is called the *Only Begotten* of the Father *from the beginning*. "And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning" (Moses 1:9) "Even those things which were from the beginning before the world was, which were ordained of the Father, through his Only Begotten Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, even from the beginning" (D&C 76:13). This is, what I assume, an LDS-forward-looking picture of Christ's incarnation through some form of union between Heavenly Father and Mary. Jesus is never considered the Only Begotten of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother from the beginning but rather the Only Begotten of the Father (through Mary). Neither do I find any mention of Jesus being the *First Begotten* of Heavenly Mother and Father. I see a mention of all the other begotten sons and daughters of Heavenly Father through faith in Christ (as mentioned in Mosiah 5:7) but this is not some birth in a union between a Heavenly Mother and Father. Additionally, I see this mentioned in Hebrews 11:17. "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son." Isaac was considered the only begotten son of Abraham because he was born of promise (born after the spirit). Ishmael was born after the flesh (not according to God's plan but of Abraham and Sarah's scheme).
  10. What do you think of these teachings? "... I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see" (History of the Church, volume 6). “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave. This is the way our Heavenly Father became God. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345–346, 348; previous Gospel Principles edition, chapter 47).
  11. Please ignore if this appears as a duplicate. In our church, begotten does not mean being born of heavenly parents. There is a reference to Jesus being the first begotten of the dead. Jesus, as God, became a man and thus put aside his status. In the resurrection, he was exalted back to his former state. Exaltation (with its many references in the Bible and Book of Mormon) does not mean becoming a god/God. There are also references to firstborn in the scriptures. Joseph, though not the firstborn of Jacob, received the inheritance as though he were the firstborn (1 Chr. 5:1–2), as also did Ephraim (Gen. 48; Jer. 31:9)." Exodus 4:22 says, "And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn." Speaking of David (verses 20), Psalm 89:27 says, "Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth." Jeremiah 31:9 says, "They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Firstborn does not mean first born.
  12. Hello Eph2,8, Welcome. Gospel Principles has a section in chapter 6 called "Great Blessings Resulted from the Transgression". This would seem to indicate that God really does bless someone for their disobedience. Maybe they should change the word "blessings" to "consequences".
  13. Maybe someday the LDS Church will come to believe in the same Jesus Christ that traditional Christianity believes in (i.e. he is not a spirit child of heavenly parents who became a God).
  14. What are some of the most severe punishments that God has inflicted upon people in the Book of Mormon who did not keep covenant?
  15. Do you agree with Joseph Smith's teaching that Heavenly Father (of Earth) was once a man who became a God and that he was not God from everlasting to everlasting?
  16. Will punishment be the result of a non-transformational transaction then?
  17. I wonder if they leave birth certificates blank where the sex of the child is indicated.
  18. I would agree with you. Polygamy is still a God-ordained principle according to the FLDS. In some regards, they view the main LDS group as apostatizing when the latter group believed they received a revelation to stop it.
  19. Do you believe God created angels who are not members of the race of gods?
  20. You may want to consider that the Book of Mormon does not teach some of your beliefs.
  21. From the historical archives. https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/tad-r-callister/our-identity-and-our-destiny/ TAD R. CALLISTER Of the Presidency of the Seventy August 14, 2012 Being immersed in a world of good and evil, having the capacity to choose, and being able to draw upon the powers of the Atonement resulted in man having unlimited opportunities to progress toward his destiny of godhood. To this He readily acknowledged that He was and declared that they should be likewise: “Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?” (John 10:32–34; emphasis added). In other words, He said not only am I a god, but all of you are potential gods. He was referring to His own Old Testament declaration, with which the Jews should have been familiar: “Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High” (Psalm 82:6). The Savior was merely reaffirming a basic gospel teaching that all men are children of God, and thus all might become like Him. When I read the passages spoken by Jesus, I don't see that the form "you are" is changed to mean the future whereas the form "I am" is preserved to mean the present. And it is exactly what the Savior promised in this dispensation for all faithful Saints: “Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them” (D&C 132:20; see also verse 19; see also D&C 76:58–60). The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words... The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said.8 For several centuries this doctrinal truth survived, but eventually the Apostasy took its toll, and this doctrine in its purity and expansiveness was lost. The doctrine of man’s potential for godhood as taught by the Prophet Joseph Smith was not his invention—not his creation, not conjured up by some fertile mind. It was simply and solely a restoration of a glorious truth that had been taught in the scriptures and by many early Christian writers of the primitive Church. Perhaps B. H. Roberts expressed it best when he said: If within the short space of mortal life there are men who rise up out of infancy and become masters of the elements of fire and water and earth and air, so that they well-nigh rule them as Gods, what may it not be possible for them to do in a few hundreds or thousands of millions of years? 26 Joseph Smith taught Heavenly Father was once a man who became a God. But there is no indication whether it took him a few hundreds or thousands of millions of years. This does not mean they became gods who replaced our Father in Heaven but rather exalted men who have enlarged capabilities to honor and glorify Him. Our Father in Heaven will forever stand supreme as our God, whom we will love and revere and worship, worlds without end. There is a different implication taught in the 1997 version of Gospel Principles in the Exaltation chapter. These are some of the blessings given to exalted people: 1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76). 2. They will become gods. 3. They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family. According to #3, it seems to be implied that the children of some world that you create and populate (if you become a God) worship you like you worship the Heavenly Father of Earth (since it is the same relationship). If this is incorrect, then why do you worship Heavenly Father of Earth instead of his Father? Thank you, Jim
  22. I believe the Fall caused the need for the Atonement, and not the other way around. The Atonement was foreordained in response to the Fall, but I don't believe He desired sin and death to enter the world He created. Just like in the future in God's eternal home - there won't be another Fall and another need for a subsequent Atonement. But I suppose there might be. From what I know of LDS theology, I suppose there was an Atonement performed on the planet that the man (who would become the God and Heavenly Father of Earth) grew up on - as Jesus performed the Atonement on our planet.
  23. I wasn't being sarcastic. Past comments are summed up nicely by Boyd K. Packer - "It isn’t a question of who said it or when; the question is whether it is true" (1977, Follow the Rule, speeches.byu.edu).
  24. Yes. But I wonder what you believe God planned first, the Fall or the Atonement?
  • Create New...