theplains

No questions herein, just observations... Here's another gospel "truth" once taught by the LDS Church. It should be worth noting that skin color is not depicted as reflecting only one's spiritual state. It echoes what former President Spencer W. Kimball taught in the 1960 General Conference. There is also a preoccupation with "blood". Supposedly the Indians contain a "purer strain of Israelitish blood than many members of the Church" even though the LDS Church teaches some who are acted upon by the Holy Ghost have their blood changed into the literal blood of Abraham. (Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual).. Here is the exact quote: "... for as the Holy Ghost falls upon one of the literal seed of Abraham, it is calm and serene; and his whole soul and body are only exercised by the pure spirit of intelligence; while the effect of the Holy Ghost upon a Gentile, is to purge out the old blood, and make him actually of the seed of Abraham. That man that has none of the blood of Abraham (naturally) must have a new creation by the Holy Ghost". Before examining the "red men" teaching, let's look at what Spencer Kimball said: "The work is unfolding, and blinded eyes begin to see, and scattered people begin to gather. I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today as against that of only fifteen years ago. Truly the scales of darkness are falling from their eyes, and they are fast becoming a white and delightsome people. The day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos, five were darker but equally delightsome. The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation. At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter we represent, the little member girl, sixteen, sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather .... These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness" Here is the gospel "truth" I was alluding to earlier about the "red men": FUTURE FATE OF THE RED MAN. Improbable as it may seem, it is nevertheless true that the Indians are not destined to be crowded off the face of the land by the whites; neither will the whites ever witness their utter extermination. In ancient days the Lord made covenants with various individuals in relation to their descendants-that he would bless them, etc., and would not suffer them to perish from the face of the earth, but would remember them in the last days, and would reveal unto them the abun-dance of peace and truth.... The Book of Mormon, the record containing the ancient history of America, plainly states that the Lord did also make such a covenant with the ancestors of the present American Indians, and with other holy men who formerly inhabited this continent ... Instead, therefore, of there being any likelihood of the Indians being exterminated, or meeting the fate many imagine to be inevitable, there is much more danger that the whites themselves will be the people who will experience this fate, or something approximating thereto. The only way they can avoid it is by receiving and obeying the fullness of the Gospel. Yet, this they as a nation have rejected. (December 13, 1856, WS 270-71) INDIANS RECEPTIVE TO GOSPEL. Strange to say—if anything can be said to be strange connected with the work of God-the descendants of those ancient covenant people of the Lord have gladly received the testimony of the servants of God. Wherever we have gone and mingled with those people, with those Red Men, and been able to communicate to them the truths of which we are in possession, which God has revealed to us, they have received the same gladly, not only upon this continent but upon the islands of the sea; ... everywhere where those men with red skins dwell, they have gladly received the testimony of God's servants concerning the Gospel, and they rejoice in its fullness and in the knowledge that their fathers once possessed and of the redemption that Jesus Christ has wrought out for them. Most wonderful has this prediction been fulfilled in this respect. (April 6, 1884, JD 25:123-24) THE INDIANS TO BUILD NEW JERUSALEM. The Latter-day Saints should remember who these red men are and the predictions which have been made concerning them. They are our brethren, being of the house of Israel and containing a purer strain of Israelitish blood than many members of the Church. It has been predicted, and the word of the Lord will no more fail in this respect than in any other, that they will yet become a white and delightsome people, possessed of a very high degree of cultivation. They are to build the New Jerusalem, and we, who are of the Gentile nations, are to assist them in the work. The prospect of such a condition of things may humble our pride, but we may as well look squarely at the destiny which is before [them]... in the due time of the Lord they will be redeemed.... (February 1, 1895, JI 30:75-76) President George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth, volume 2, chapter 8, pages 97-98.

What about all those people who supposedly lived on the world that he (the Father) created? Were they spirit children (offspring) of that Father? All terrestrial and telestial inhabitants do not receive a fulness of joy even though their spirit and body are joined together eternally – not even those in the two lower divisions of the celestial kingdom have it. "Fulness of joy" and "eternal life" seem to be different things, and it's only reserved for exalted beings. "Neither is it enough to be a good, solid citizen, contributing to charities, serving on community boards, and in general living a good Christian life. Although commendable, this is not sufficient to entitle one to the fulness of joy and the eternal life that our Father in heaven has promised to those who love him and keep his commandments" (January 1975, New Era, Just for Today, President N. Eldon Tanner). Becoming a god (God) precedes obtaining a fulness of joy. Both Father and Mother obtained their fulness of joy. The LDS Father did not have a fulness of joy until he passed all his tests and became a God. "We learned that if we placed our faith in him, obeying his word and following his example, we would be exalted and become like our heavenly parents. We would receive a fulness of joy … We can be exalted as God is and receive a fulness of joy … If we passed our tests, we would receive the fulness of joy that our heavenly parents have received … Blessings of Exaltation: They will become gods. They will receive a fulness of joy" (Gospel Principles, 1997). The LDS Father is not always a God (in a state of godhood) before he fully progresses. "The progression of our Father in heaven to godhood, or exaltation, was strictly in accordance with eternal principles" (Achieving a Celestial Marriage manual). Becoming "our God" is not the same as becoming "a God". Let's take you for example. In LDS theology, you hope to become "a God" someday. Afterwards, you will have spirit children and you will become "their God". As the 1997 Gospel Principles lays out one of the blessings of exaltation: "3. They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family". In short, they will worship their Father and God (you). They will not worship some other God. But you reject the idea that some being progressed beyond what he was before and became a God then Father. What were Jesus and the Holy Spirit before they were born to a heavenly mother and started their progression to godhood? Yes. God the Father is above all the gods of the Greeks, Romans, Hindus, etc. Apparently the LDS Heavenly Father was not miraculously born as Jesus was. Here are several things you seem to believe the LDS Heavenly Father cannot say: "Whoever receives you receives me, and whoever receives me receives him who sent me" (Matthew 10:40). "Just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes alive whomever he wants." (John 5:21). "The Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son." (John 5:22). "So that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father." (John 5:23). "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father." (John 14:9). "My Father has kept working until now, and I keep working." (John 5:17). "The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does also in like manner." (John 5:19). "I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me." (John 6:38).

I checked your links but I see no place where you address the fact that you believe Joseph Smith, in his King Follett discourse, was really saying that "God was not OUR God (OUR Father) from all eternity" as opposed to "God was not God from all eternity". For instance, in your 11/10/2022 post, you say, "Joseph Smith never said that Heavenly Father was a man before he became God". He supposedly becomes "a" God before he becomes "our" God. Likewise, Heavenly Mother supposedly becomes "a" Goddess before she becomes "our" Mother. Then, "Joseph Smith didn't provide the sequence of events in such a way to suggest he was a man first, and God later". Do you believe Heavenly Mother was a woman first and then a God later? LDS teachings have Jesus being an eternal, uncreated intelligence who became the first spirit child of heavenly parents, who became a God, then became a man. Lucifer, also an eternal uncreated intelligence, becomes another spirit child of heavenly parents, spirit brother to Jesus. Then, "How he came to be our God is explained in the statement from Joseph Smith: The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 354). That is how God came to be our God". You continually focus on the "how God came to be our God" part, which I understand given the context of eternal increase. But you never show why you believe Joseph Smith clearly has this context (having spirit children) in mind when he says, "… it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see". He doesn't say "how God came to be our God" like you imply and he doesn't explain how God the Father supposedly became a God before he supposedly becomes a man on some other world. By the way, the quote you provided (likewise found in the 2007 version, chapter 17, page 210) also doesn't say anything about "God becoming our God (our Father)" in the sense he and his wife procreated us in some way (i.e. "eternal increase"). Your quote of "The first principles of man are self-existent with God" implies that man and woman exist outside of God. They are co-eternal, uncreated. In Christian theology, only God is self-existent. "God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself." In Christian theology, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost did not need to advance by laws to achieve godhood. That's self serving – a being, eternally existing as maybe intelligence, without a spirit or physical body, institutes laws by which he advances into becoming a God. You never show from scripture where some being instituted laws to become a God before he becomes a Father. Supposedly the LDS Father of Earth advanced and progressed into becoming a God all by himself. Any being who needs to advance and progress into becoming a God has not always been eternally God. Not even the LDS Jesus can accurately be called the "Eternal God" for he is taught to have become a God in his pre-mortal life. The fact that some taught that men could become gods or Gods doesn't make it true, just as what LDS leaders speak doesn't make it all true. That's why I've been citing LDS leaders in my posts. What I find interesting is that you seem willing to accept the Early Church Fathers as truthful when they support your position, yet you're reluctant to say that any of the LDS leaders I quoted were wrong. I provided multiple statements, but you haven't identified which, if any, you believe are false. I don't agree with the Early Church Fathers on the subject of men becoming Gods or the LDS doctrine of eternal increase. Unless I'm mistaken, you believe all the LDS quotes I provided in points 1 through 4 in my earlier post are truthful since you haven't stated otherwise. But you seem to reject some LDS teachings when they are repeated across decades. You don't seem to view them as doctrine either. Apparently a repeated teaching is only doctrine when it comes from Early Church Fathers but not LDS prophets or apostles. I believe they misinterpreted what these verses mean: Romans 8:29- "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son..." 2 Corinthians 3:18 - "And we all... are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another..." Philippians 3:20–21 - "...who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body..." 1 John 3:2 - "Beloved, we are God's children now... when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is." Ephesians 4:13 - "...until we all attain... to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." Colossians 3:10 - "...have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its Creator." The LDS Church even views only the sons of God (the joint-heirs) as exalted beings. See their interpretation of Romans 8:13-17 (If sons, then heirs …). If not an heir, then not a son is the explanation. I think Jehovah's Witnesses have a parallel explanation. Only 144000 are the sons of God, the rest of those on Paradise Earth are friends of God. Is God the Father (the Father of the Gods as you say above) also the Father of Heavenly Mother (believed to be a God herself)? The part about there being a God above Earth's Heavenly Father can be explained with his teaching "I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see". The LDS Heavenly Father just doesn't come out of nowhere. Joseph Smith did not believe the God of our Earth was always God. In another sermon, Joseph Smith taught : "If Abraham reasoned thus—If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it" (Teachings of Joseph Smith, page 373). He calls it a doctrine. Supposedly Heavenly Father calls a grand council where he announces a plan for his spirit children to become exalted (to become Gods). " … according to that which was ordained in the midst of the Council of the Eternal God of all other Gods, before this world was, that should be reserved unto the finishing and the end thereof, when every man shall enter into His eternal presence, and into His immortal rest" (Teachings of Joseph Smith, page 138]. "Thus the head God brought forth the Gods in the grand council" (Teachings of Joseph Smith, page 348). "The head God called together the Gods and sat in grand council17 to bring forth the world. The grand councilors sat at the head in yonder heavens and contemplated the creation of the worlds which were created at the time" (Teachings of Joseph Smith, page 348-349). "In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it" (Teachings of Joseph Smith, page 349). "The contention in heaven was—Jesus said there would be certain souls that would not be saved; and the devil said he could save them all, and laid his plans before the grand council, who gave their vote in favor of Jesus Christ. So the devil rose up in rebellion against God, and was cast down, with all who put up their heads for him. (Book of Moses—Pearl of Great Price, Chap. 4:1-4; Book of Abraham, Chap. 3:23-28.)" (Teachings of Joseph Smith, page 357). "Every man who has a calling to minister to the inhabitants of the world was ordained to that very purpose in the Grand Council of heaven before this world was. I suppose I was ordained to this very office in that Grand Council" (Teachings of Joseph Smith, page 365). "The head God called together the Gods and sat in grand council to bring forth the world. The grand councilors sat at the head in yonder heavens and contemplated the creation of the worlds which were created at the time" (April 1971 Ensign, The King Follett Sermon). Since you refer to him as the Head of the Gods, which Gods (also referred to as the grand councilors) at the council are you referring to? Had Jesus and the Holy Ghost already become Gods before the council was planned and these are the only additional Gods, Heavenly Mother included, that were present there? Or are Heavenly Mother and Father the only Gods at this grand council? I don't agree with Lactantius teaching Jesus Christ is the "Second God". Jesus created Satan (John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:15-17). "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made". "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together". Since you believe there is no God above God the Father, then he apparently married a woman on the world he created, and she or all the others on her world are not the offspring of any God. In whose image was she made?

Yes. I understand those promises but I don't believe in being formed into a God to have all knowledge and power like Heavenly Father.

Here's more of what was regarded as LDS gospel "truth". THE HILL CUMORAH IN NEW YORK. While on a recent visit to the States on business Brother Brigham Young, Jun.. and I arranged to make a visit to the hill Cumorah-the hill where Mormon and Moroni secreted the records, by the command of the Lord, which were revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith, and from which he translated the Book of Mormon... Undoubtedly great changes had occurred in the appearance of the surrounding country since the days when Mormon and Moroni had trod the spot where we stood; still, we could readily understand, even now, how admirable a position this would be for a general to occupy in watching and directing the movements of armies and in scrutinizing the position of an enemy. Around Cumorah is yet a land of many waters, rivers and fountains, as Mormon said it was in his day. Our emotions on treading on this sacred hill were of the most peculiar character. They were indescribable. This was the hill Ramah of the Jaredites, and it is probable that in this vicinity Coriantumr and Shiz, with the people whom they led, fought their last battle. For this great battle they were four years preparing, gathering the people together from all parts of the land and arming men and women, and even children. The battle lasted eight days, and the result was the complete extermination of the Jaredite nation, none being left but the Prophet Ether-who warned the nation of the fate that awaited it unless the people repented and who lived to record the fulfillment of his own warnings and predictions-and Coriantumr who succeeded in slaying his mortal enemy, Shiz. It is probable that the Prophet Ether, when he emerged from his hiding-place to view the destruction of his race, which he had been inspired to foretell, had ascended this hill and from its summit had gazed with profound grief upon the thousands of slain which lay scattered unburied upon the surface of the earth around. He and Coriantumr alone of all that mighty race which had flourished for upwards of fifteen hundred years were left. Who can imagine the feelings which he must have had on such an occasion. From the summit of this hill, doubtless, Mormon and his great son Moroni had also witnessed the gathering of the hosts of the Nephites and the dusky and myriad legions of their deadly enemies, the Lamanites. Around this hill they had marshaled their forces, their twenty-three divisions of ten thousand men each, commanded by the most skillful of their generals-all to be swept away, except Mormon and Moroni and twenty-two others, in one day's battle, by the fierce and relentless foe whom God permitted to execute his threatened judgment. Stealthily, perhaps, for fear of exciting the attention of the Lamanites, Mormon and Moroni and their companions may have ascended this hill and gazed on the dreadful scene around them. What a picture of desolation and woe must have met their sight! How deep must have been their anguish at thus witnessing the destruction of the fair ones of their nation! No wonder they cried out in anguish and mourned with pathetic lamentations the rebellion against God which had brought this terrible destruction upon them. Mormon's feelings must have been very peculiar. At fifteen years of age chosen to be the commander-in-chief of the armies of his nation, he had fought battle after battle until now, at seventy-four years of age, he witnessed the complete blotting out of what had been the most favored people on the earth. His reflections must have been peculiarly painful, because he knew that had they listened to him he could have saved them. It was here that he hid the abridgment which he made of the records, and which is now known by his name, and it was here, thirty-six years after this tremendous battle, that his son Moroni also hid his abridgment of the Book of Ether and the record which he had made, from which we learn the fate of his father Mormon and his other companions, that sixteen years after the battle of Cumorah Mormon and all the Nephites except Moroni had been killed by the Lamanites. It was to this spot that, about fourteen hundred years after these events, Joseph Smith, the Prophet, was led by Moroni in person, and for translation. Who could tread this ground and reflect upon these mighty events and not be filled with indescribable emotion? We were literally surrounded by the graves of two of the mightiest nations which had ever flourished on the earth. We stood in the center of their burial place. They had rebelled against God; they had slain His Prophets, disregarded His warnings, and arrayed themselves against Him (July 5, 1873, JI 8:108-109). Gospel Truth, volume 2, chapter 20, President George Q. Cannon (pages 256-259).

Yes. But I don't believe in being formed into a God to have all knowledge and power like Heavenly Father. It's not impossible for us to be perfected in Christ. If being perfected means becoming a God, then the LDS Heavenly Father also became a God before becoming a heavenly father. "The condescension of God (meaning the Father) consists in the fact that though he is an exalted, perfected, glorified Personage, he became the personal and literal Father of a mortal Offspring born of mortal woman" (Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed. [1966], 155). (Religion 250 - Jesus Christ and the Everlasting Gospel - Teacher Manual).

I don't understand the question about mutual exclusivity. But assuming you believe Abraham is already a God now, then yes, that would mean he is a king and priest now as how some interpret what being a king and priest means. However, the writings of Peter and John in the Book of Revelation reveal that this becoming a priest and king does not require physical death and then a resurrection. The passages you quoted above are only a reference to exalted beings in LDS theology. Do LDS women also hold the Aaronic priesthood?

Didn't the LDS version of Heavenly Father get (create) his own world (s) when he became a God?

The following was taught in Gospel Truth, volume 2, page 128. George Q. Cannon served as a counselor in the First Presidency to four successive LDS Church presidents Is the punishment for this "gospel truth" the same for those who commit this great sin or have less than three children when they are capable of more? And is it really seemingly one step below or on par with murder on the condemnation scale? BIRTH CONTROL-A GREAT SIN. From what we have heard we are led to believe that the spirit is abroad in the earth, and is making some headway among the Latter-day saints, to look with reproach upon women with large families, and the desire seems to be growing among some of the younger population, to desire only one or two, and not to exceed three, children. We have heard that many of the diabolical practices of the world have been introduced... among some who profess to be Latter-day Saints, to prevent the bearing of children. No sin, unless it be that of murder, will meet with a greater condemnation from God than this evil of tampering with the fountains of life. Such sins will destroy the strength of any people that practices them, and the nation whose people yield to such vices is in great danger of destruction. No Saint can practice or encourage such corruption without incurring the displeasure of an offended God. (July 15, 1895, JI 30:451) I refer to the practice of preventing the birth of children. I want to lift my voice in solemn warning against this, and I say to you that the woman who practices such devilish arts, or the man who consents to them, will be cursed of God. Such persons will be cursed in their bodies, cursed in their minds, cursed in their property, cursed in their offspring. God will wipe them out from the midst of this people and nation. Remember it. Mothers, teach this to your daughters, for I tell you it is true. I need not pronounce any curse, whatever my authority may be, but I say to you that women who take this course, and men who consent to it, will be cursed of God Almighty, and it will rest upon them until their generation shall be blotted out, and their name shall be lost from the midst of the Saints of Goa unless, as I have said, there is deep, thorough and heartfelt repentance. (October 7, 1894, DW 49:739)

That appears to be your definition of "exaltation" - meaning a body is exalted. You should become more familiar with how the LDS Church defines exaltation. Now it appears you do believe God has not always been a God but he became a God. I'd say He (the LDS God) is not a God before "achieving Godhood". He is not a God before "progressing to Godhood". By the way, the idea of "achieving" Godhood and then "progressing to" Godhood should be reversed. "Progressing towards" is one of the steps in the journey before reaching the "achieved" state. You are only thinking about Heavenly Father's sphere of influence or realm. You should watch the movie "Thor" to understand what I mean by realms. In the case of LDS theology, there are many of them – each with its own supreme leader, or God in your case. I think you believe Heavenly Father is a higher God than Jesus, right. Do you also believe Heavenly Father is a higher God than his God (Jesus' Grandfather)? Do you also believe Heavenly Father is the most High God of all other Gods which supposedly exist before he becomes a God and heavenly father of our Earth? Notice that I specifically use upper case "g" but you keep referring to lower case "g". It seems they mean different things to you. Based on what she wrote, and I hope that I didn't misunderstand her, she believes that some woman who lived on some other world became a God and then became the heavenly mother of the humans on our Earth. I think she also believes the same about Heavenly Father of our Earth; that they were married on that world, became Gods, and then had spirit children and populated our Earth with these children. They had a beginning as Gods and as heavenly parents. They are not classified as "Gods" until they become Gods. They are not classified as "heavenly parents" until they have spirit children (i.e. eternal increase). I think the LDS Church formulizes the doctrine of Heavenly Mother through "The Family: Proclamation to the World" but doesn't speculate on how she became a God and who atoned for her sins while she was living on her world.

In that discourse, he said "I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see". Do you believe that he was only teaching the people to know and believe God became OUR God instead of Him becoming A God? If yes, provide the exact inference. Under whose laws did Heavenly Father advance before and after he supposedly became a man? Moses and Satan were referred to as gods in scripture but they were not Deities. As for the people you mentioned above, I don't believe it was on par with all the quotes from the following: 1] The thread "The caricature: Mormons wishing to "get their own planet?" 2] Doctrine and Covenants 76 ("…And he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion") 3] Gospel Principles (page 275 - "Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge and all wisdom. He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation". Page 277 - "5. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge (see D&C 132:19–20)" 4] Orson Pratt, The Seer. "All these Gods are equal in power, in glory, in dominion, and in the possession of all things; each possesses a fulness of truth, of knowledge, of wisdom, of light, of intelligence ; each governs himself in all things by his own attributes, and is filled with love, goodness, mercy, and justice towards all. The fulness of all these attributes is what constitutes God. "God is Light." "God is Love." "God is Truth." The Gods are one in the qualities and attributes". "Each person is called God, not because of his substance, neither because of the shape and size of the substance, but because of the qualities which dwell in the substance" . You seem to believe the men you quoted above were speaking the truth, but you didn't mention if you believed all the LDS leaders that I referenced were speaking the truth or if you also consider them as "doctrine" like you applied above. Have a look at the thread and let me know which statements you believe are false. It's odd how you use the word "doctrine" and apply it to what the early Church Fathers taught but you don't apply the same thing to what LDS leaders taught. We have LDS teaching guides like "Doctrines of Salvation" and "Doctrines of the Gospel – Student Manual" but you want readers to believe nothing in them is not a false doctrine, right? The book "Gospel Truths", by former First Presidency Member George Q. Cannon" is really not "gospel truths", right? I suggest you quote some of what your own LDS leaders really teach and really mean if you disagree with how I am interpreting them. I don't agree that everything early Church Fathers taught square with what has been revealed in scripture. "Becoming like God" in the LDS sense is not how Christians view "Adam and Eve becoming like God" in the Garden of Eden. Being created in the image of God does not make us gods. The Church Fathers did not teach Heavenly Father was once a married man who became a God and then populated Earth with spirit children created on the world he lives on. They also didn't teach Jesus and the Holy Ghost are spirit brothers of Lucifer. When LDS leaders have repeatedly taught God is an exalted man, they do not mean that God was always a God and then this God became a man, and then this God/man was re-exalted back to the position he had before. It's even taught as LDS doctrine that Jesus became a God in his pre-mortal life before he comes to Earth in mortal flesh. Does the LDS Heavenly Mother become a God before the LDS Jesus is even born to her as her first spirit child? Obviously. Was he born a spirit-God to her? No. He was ranked as a God when he reached some pinnacle of intelligence in his pre-existence, as taught in "Doctrines of the Gospel – Student Manual). In some fashion, an LDS man and woman attained their fulness of joy when they became Gods (they achieved godhood) and then supposedly became Heavenly Parents of Earth. No. But I see a dividing line between the Creator and creation. We will partake of God's blessings in his kingdom but this won't make us Gods. If I understand LDS theology correctly, everyone in the Celestial kingdom (with its three sections) will have celestial glory, whose glory is that of the sun (D&C 76:70). And the glory of the sun is one (76:96). But all the inhabitants of the celestial kingdom are not Gods. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life". In LDS theology, you can put the inhabitants of the two lower divisions of the celestial kingdom and all from the terrestrial/telestial kingdoms into the "should perish" class. On the flip side, God's love is not demonstrated to those who don't partake of everything that he enjoys.

Ah. I see that you take the "man of sin" to represent many individuals, not just one in particular. Regarding Revelation 19, I see the beast, false prophet as two separate individuals. "And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur". Unless you don't view these two as two separate individuals? Then in Revelation 20, we are introduced to a third. "Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years". Unless you don't view Satan as an individual in this verse? I view the "man of sin", the individual, as either the beast or false prophet based on the mighty signs and wonders used to deceive the people just prior to the Second Coming (2 Thessalonians 2:9, Revelation 13:13-14, and Revelation 19:20).

I don't focus on the secular or sci-fi way that some have interpreted it. Let's use the words of the LDS leaders themselves and what they meant, and not be distracted by semantics.

Is it in the present or future tense in Doctrine and Covenants 76:52-59? "That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power; And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true. They are they who are the church of the Firstborn. They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory; And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son. Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ's, and Christ is God's". Women too? LDS women do not receive the Melchizedek priesthood.

From FairLDS Mormons, along with many other Christian denominations, believe in deification or theosis, based on the teaching that we can become heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17). Little is known, though much might be speculated, about the specific details of our potential under this doctrine. Reducing it to ruling a planet caricatures a profound and complex belief. The use of the word “planet” makes Mormons seem more like sci-fi enthusiasts than devout Christians. This isn’t just a quibble about semantics. Claims that Mormons hope for “their own planets” almost always aim to disrespect and marginalize, not to understand or clarify. The reality is that we seek eternal life, which we consider to be a life like that of our Father in Heaven. We consider our immediate task on Earth to learn to understand and obey the Gospel of Jesus Christ, rather than speculate on what life might be like if we achieve exaltation. Specifics about the creation of worlds and the ability to govern them upon achieving eternal life are not clarified in Latter-day Saint scripture. Attempts to portray these concepts as simply wanting to “get our own planet” are a mockery of Latter-day Saint beliefs. It doesn't sound like a caricature when it comes from LDS sources however. Here are the noticeable ones. Maybe it should be reworded as "Mormons wishing to create their own worlds" so as to eliminate the need for that classification. 1] Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 17, discourse 22. The sermon's title is: "Nothing Strange or New to Live and Die—Must Die in Order to Be Quickened—The World of Mankind Ignorant of Immortality—The Righteous Should Live to Enjoy the Light of the Spirit—All People Are the Children of God—They Learn By Contrast—Worlds to Be Organized and Peopled in Future Existence." The relevant passage reads: "As for their labor and pursuits in eternity I have not time to talk upon that subject; but we shall have plenty to do. We shall not be idle. We shall go on from one step to another, reaching forth into the eternities until we become like the Gods, and shall be able to frame for ourselves, by the behest and command of the Almighty. All those who are counted worthy to be exalted and to become Gods, even the sons of God, will go forth and have earths and worlds like those who framed this and millions on millions of others." 2] "After men have got their exaltations and their crowns—have become Gods, even the sons of God—are made Kings of kings and Lords of lords, they have the power then of propagating their species in spirit; and that is the first of their operations with regard to organizing a world. Power is then given to them to organize the elements, and then commence the organization of tabernacles. How can they do it? Have they to go to that earth? Yes, an Adam will have to go there, and he cannot do without Eve; he must have Eve to commence the work of generation, and they will go into the garden, and continue to eat and drink of the fruits of the corporeal world, until this greater matter is diffused sufficiently through their celestial bodies to enable them, according to the established laws, to produce mortal tabernacles for their spiritual children" (Journal of Discourses, 6:275) Sermon: Necessity of the Servants of God Being Pure in Heart and in Deed—Dependence on the Holy Spirit—Celestial Exaltations, Etc. 3] "Again it follows, that in the use of this power, by consent and authority of the head, any one of these Gods may create, organize, people, govern, control, exalt, glorify and enjoy worlds on worlds, and the inhabitants thereof; or, in other words, each of them can find room in the infinitude of space, and unoccupied chaotic elements in the boundless storehouse of eternal riches, with which to erect for himself thrones, principalities, and powers, over which to reign in still increasing might, majesty and dominion, for ever and ever" (Parley P. Pratt, Key to the Science of Theology) 4] "Then will they become gods, even the sons of God; then will they become eternal fathers, eternal mothers, eternal sons and eternal daughters; being eternal in their organization, they go from glory to glory, from power to power; they will never cease to increase and to multiply worlds without end. When they receive their crowns, their dominions, they then will be prepared to frame earth’s like unto ours and to people them in the same manner as we have been brought forth by our parents, by our Father and God". "When we shall possess the power and knowledge to cause heavenly planets to take their position, giving them their laws and boundaries which they must obey, and which they cannot pass, then we may begin to feel that we possess a little wisdom and power". "The great and grand secret of salvation, which we should continually seek to understand through our faithfulness, is the continuation of the lives. Those of the Latterday Saints who will continue to follow after the revelations and commandments of God to do them, who are found to be obedient in all things, continually advancing little by little towards perfection and the knowledge of God, they, when they enter the spirit world and receive their bodies, will be able to advance faster in the things pertaining to the knowledge of the Gods, and will continue onward and upward until they become Gods, even the sons of God" (Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, 18:259 and 260). 5] "That great blessing of celestial glory could never have come to us without a period of time in mortality, and so we came here in this mortal world. We are in school, the mortal school, to gain the experiences, the training, the joys, and the sufferings that we partake of, that we might be educated in all these things and be prepared, if we are faithful and true to the commandments of the Lord, to become sons and daughters of God, joint heirs with Jesus Christ; and in His presence to go on to a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever, and perhaps through our faithfulness to have the opportunity of building worlds and peopling them" (Adam’s Role in Bringing Us Mortality, President Joseph Fielding Smith, from an October 1967 General Conference address). 6] "The training you get in the universities, while excellent, is limited. It is but a very tiny percentage of the total knowledge. We encourage knowledge and its proper use, but we know there will be a thousand years to study about things, and compared to the years spent in universities, that great learning period is relatively limitless. When we’re ready to create our own worlds and give leadership thereto, we will have great knowledge. Since knowledge is power, we will have power. Since knowledge can make us creative, we can be creators. Since knowledge can lead to judgment and wisdom, we can be just and worthy and wise. But we cannot wait for marriage until we have accumulated the knowledge we finally will need and want to have in order to create. We need the power of the priesthood to effect the creation, and it will have to be there; you hold the priesthood and can use it as you accumulate the secular knowledge". ... "I feel certain that all the knowledge that is available will not be enough to give the power to create worlds without the priesthood and the power thereof. When we shall have learned all about medicine, mineralogy, zoology, forestry, biology, and all the other “-ologies” and all about the heavens and the earth in all of its moods, then, if we also know theology and know it well and abide by its precepts, perhaps then we can exercise our accumulated power to create an earth for our exalted family" (Spencer W. Kimball, "Marriage Is Honorable," BYU address on September 30, 1973). 7] Chapter 4: Teaching Children: from Four to Eleven Years,” A Parent’s Guide, page 29, second column. "Each one of you has it within the realm of his possibility to develop a kingdom over which you will preside as its king and god. You will need to develop yourself and grow in ability and power and worthiness, to govern such a world with all of its people. You are sent to this earth not merely to have a good time or to satisfy urges or passions or desires. You are sent to this earth, not to ride merry-go-rounds, airplanes, automobiles, and have what the world calls 'fun. "You are sent to this world with a very serious purpose. You are sent to school, for that matter, to begin as a human infant and grow to unbelievable proportions in wisdom, judgment, knowledge, and power" (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed, Edward L. Kimball [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1982], p. 31). 8] "Peter and John had little secular learning, being termed ignorant. But they knew the vital things of life, that God lives and that the crucified, resurrected Lord is the Son of God. They knew the path to eternal life. This they learned in a few decades of their mortal life. Their righteous lives opened the door to godhood for them and creation of worlds with eternal increase. For this they would probably need, eventually, a total knowledge of the sciences. But whereas Peter and John had only decades to learn and do the spiritual, they have already had nineteen centuries in which to learn the secular or the geology of the earth, the zoology and physiology and psychology of the creatures of the earth. Mortality is the time to learn first of God and the gospel and to perform the ordinances. After our feet are set firmly on the path to eternal life we can amass more knowledge of the secular things" (President Kimball Speaks Out, Deseret Book, 1981). It was later quoted verbatim by L. Tom Perry in his October 1997 General Conference address, "Receive Truth," giving it additional visibility in official LDS teaching. “Peter and John had little secular learning, being termed ignorant. But they knew the vital things of life, that God lives and that the crucified, resurrected Lord is the Son of God. They knew the path to eternal life. This they learned in a few decades of their mortal life. Their righteous lives opened the door to godhood for them and creation of worlds with eternal increase. For this they would probably need, eventually, a total knowledge of the sciences. But whereas Peter and John had only decades to learn and do the spiritual, they have already had nineteen centuries in which to learn the secular or the geology of the earth, the zoology and physiology and psychology of the creatures of the earth. Mortality is the time to learn first of God and the gospel and to perform the ordinances. After our feet are set firmly on the path to eternal life we can amass more knowledge of the secular things” (President Kimball Speaks Out [1981], 91). 9] "Desirable as is secular knowledge, one is not truly educated unless he has the spiritual with the secular. The secular knowledge is to be desired; the spiritual knowledge is an absolute necessity. We shall need all of the accumulated secular knowledge in order to create worlds and to furnish them, but only through the "mysteries of God" and these hidden treasures of knowledge may we arrive at the place and condition where we may use that knowledge in creation and exaltation" (Spencer W. Kimball, October 1968 Conference Report, also in Church News). 10] "To live in the highest part of the celestial kingdom is called exaltation or eternal life. To be able to live in this part of the celestial kingdom, people must have been married in the temple and must have kept the sacred promises they made in the temple. They will receive everything our Father in Heaven has and will become like Him. They will even be able to have spirit children and make new worlds for them to live on, and do all the things our Father in Heaven has done. People who are not married in the temple may live in other parts of the celestial kingdom, but they will not be exalted" (Gospel Fundamentals, Chapter 36). 11] We remember the numerous scriptures which, concentrated in a single line, were said by a former prophet, Lorenzo Snow: “As man is, God once was; and as God is, man may become.” This is a power available to us as we reach perfection and receive the experience and power to create, to organize, to control native elements". In the resurrection, men who have been faithful and diligent in all things in the flesh, [who] have kept their first and second estate, and [are] worthy to be crowned Gods, even the sons of God, will be ordained to organize matter. How much matter do you suppose there is between here and some of the fixed stars which we can see? Enough to frame many, very many millions of such earths as this, yet it is now so diffused, clear and pure, that we look through it and behold the stars" (Our Great Potential, President Spencer W. Kimball, April 1977 General Conference).

Back on March 2, I provided 10+ LDS teachings, beyond the King Follett Discourse, which show Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother were not always Gods and they were not always heavenly parents. None of these LDS teachings are supported by scripture. Joseph Smith's view that you mentioned above does not square with all the provided teachings. LDS leaders seem to have thrown several things at the wall to see which would stick. You never did explain how you believe Heavenly Mother became a God and under what circumstances. The Family: A Proclamation to the World says, "All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny". But I don't equate this to you being a deity in embryo right now. Apparently you become a deity in the future, in the first resurrection. It seems you can also become a god in the second resurrection too ("Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection" ... Doctrine and Covenants 132:19-20).

Ok, so you believe Heavenly Father became a God before he became the God and Heavenly Father of us. Is that correct? I can't remember the thread where you mentioned deification. Others besides Irenaeus had similar ideas about deification, most notably Clement of Alexandria. He wrote: "The Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God." (Exhortation to the Greeks 1) Another famous passage: "He who obeys the Lord... becomes a god while still moving about in the flesh" (Stromata VII.10). I believe they erred in their interpretation of scripture. Could there be a greater temptation than wanting to be a god? I would say no. LDS theology takes it further; teaching members that they may become Gods who create and populate their own worlds. Another twist is that Latter-day Saints are taught they will be made "equal in power, and in might, and in dominion" as Heavenly Father himself (Doctrine and Covenants 76:92-95). Orson Pratt added a few more qualities - "All these Gods are equal in power, in glory, in dominion, and in the possession of all things; each possesses a fulness of truth, of knowledge, of wisdom, of light, of intelligence ; each governs himself in all things by his own attributes, and is filled with love, goodness, mercy, and justice towards all. The fulness of all these attributes is what constitutes God. "God is Light." "God is Love." "God is Truth." The Gods are one in the qualities and attributes". "Each person is called God, not because of his substance, neither because of the shape and size of the substance, but because of the qualities which dwell in the substance" (The Seer). If this is what constitutes God, then this further re-enforces the LDS teaching that Heavenly Father was not God from all eternity to eternity.

You never explained with individual fulfilled verse 4 ("Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" and verse 9 ("Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders"). You're assuming that Jesus and Paul only spoke of localized events in Jerusalem.

"When persons have proved themselves faithful in all things required by the Lord, it is their privilege to receive covenants and obligations that will enable them to be heirs of God as members of the Church of the Firstborn. They are "sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise" and are those "into whose hands the Father has given all things" (D&C 76:51-55). They will be priests and priestesses, kings and queens, receiving the Father's glory, having the fulness of knowledge, wisdom, power, and dominion (D&C 76:56-62; cf. 107:19). (The Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Church of the Firstborn).

Do you believe Heavenly Father did not get married while he was only a man on some planet that his Father has created for him and his future bride? Following what I have seen in LDS teachings, Heavenly Mother becomes a God before Jesus becomes a God, when he reaches some pinnacle of intelligence and is ranked as a God.

Based on their writings, the apostles and elders didn't refer to themselves Aaronic or Melchizedek priests. Even with the advent of the Roman Catholic Church, this did not occur. It's also not present in the Book of Mormon, which supposedly had a church in this New Testament period.

Why did you leave the LDS faith?

I don't think an apology was ever issued for this October 1960 General Conference sermon by Spencer W. Kimball either: "The day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. In this picture of the twenty Lamanite missionaries, fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos; five were darker but equally delightsome. The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation. At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl — sixteen — sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents — on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather. There was the doctor in a Utah city who for two years had had an Indian boy in his home who stated that he was some shades lighter than the younger brother just coming into the program from the reservation. These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delight-someness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated".

When does the fulness of the Gentiles occur?

Even the JST wording points to a future event, where "Jesus, whose coming is not until after there cometh a falling away". This "coming" is the Second Coming. That's the context of 2 Thessalonians 2. The tense of the passage, using the JST, KJV, NKJV, or even the ESV ("The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders"), denotes the future. We have not seen anything of this magnitude, even in your reference to Titus or Vespasian.