BYU Campus Police- Honor Code

[Stargazer]

On 4/14/2016 at 9:38 PM, sjdawg said:

 

[Stargazer]

10 hours ago, Russell C McGregor said:

Thank you for vindicating my position.

That wasn't exactly a vindication, it was a QED.  Which was the thing to be demonstrated.  A perfect illustration, in fact.  sjdawg is not stupid -- I'm surprised that he failed to see that he was providing that very perfect demonstration.  Tunnel vision, apparently.

[Russell C McGregor]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yep. Sarah Westerberg is a veritable Dolores Umbridge. Nurse Rached, Lizzie Borden, Irma Grese, Annie Wilkes, Cruella DeVille, and Cinderella's step-mother all rolled into one.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/uayq9ZaKsI0

I would say AngryDad's slander of her is somewhat uncharitable and perhaps a bit undeserved. Would you say Sarah has been treated humanely?

But Bernard; it doesn't matter how badly Ms Westerberg is treated if she's not part of a designated Victim[TM] group.

Victims[TM] must be treated with deference, their claims of victimhood never questioned, and their own misbehaviours must never even be raised as a subject. By contrast, those who are not Victims[TM] simply deserve whatever opprobrium that may be heaped upon them.

 

[bsjkki]

11 hours ago, Russell C McGregor said:

So what's important is not whether there's anything substantially wrong with what BYU is doing, but that the perception is there. And, of course, "growing."

Incidentally, "BYU: stop punishing victims of sexual assault" is a loaded demand. There is no evidence that BYU has ever punished anyone for being a victim of sexual assault. And while Ms. Barney is rather too sly to outright claim that they have, that's clearly what she is trying to imply.

And I'll bet that her definition of "sexual assault" is pretty broad, too. It seems to be a characteristic tactic of the "rape culture" warriors to continually equivocate between rape and "sexual assault," which is taken to include a wide range of actions.

 

I do think it is important that this story could damage BYU's reputation.  Controlling public perception is what PR officials do.  This new article will not help that perception.  I'm not a lawyer but this prosecutor is.  Maybe it will convince there is something wrong going on at BYU.  I wish there wasn't.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/3773615-155/prosecutor-says-rape-case-is-threatened?fullpage=1

[ALarson]

54 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I do think it is important that this story could damage BYU's reputation.  Controlling public perception is what PR officials do.  This new article will not help that perception.  I'm not a lawyer but this prosecutor is.  Maybe it will convince there is something wrong going on at BYU.  I wish there wasn't.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/3773615-155/prosecutor-says-rape-case-is-threatened?fullpage=1

Wow, that's interesting to read through.

 

Quote

 

Prosecutors say Brigham Young University is jeopardizing a pending rape prosecution because the school refuses to delay its Honor Code case against the alleged victim.

Deputy Utah County Attorney Craig Johnson brought charges against the woman's alleged attacker and said he implored school officials to consider that their Honor Code investigation of her conduct would further victimize her. He asked them to postpone their investigation until the conclusion of the trial, originally planned for next month.

He said they declined, and have barred the student from registering for future classes until she complies with the school's investigation.

 

 

.

Edited April 15, 2016 by ALarson

[ALarson]

Here's this from the Huffington Post:

"BYU Pressured To Stop Punishing Rape Victims After They Report Their Assaults"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/byu-punish-rape-victims_us_570fd88be4b0ffa5937e8457

Quote

 

More than 13,000 people have signed an online petition calling on Brigham Young University to provide immunity for students who report being sexually assaulted.

Under current policy, the university investigates students who report sexual assault for violations of the school’s strict honor code, which bans premarital sex, same-sex dating, alcohol consumption and being in the bedroom of someone of the opposite sex, among other things. This means a student who reports a sexual assault could end up being placed on probation, suspended or expelled if BYU finds them to have been in violation of the honor code.

 

 

Edited April 15, 2016 by ALarson

[Gray]

4 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Wow, that's interesting to read through.

 

 

 

 

 

This is insane. BYU needs to get its priorities straight. If not because they are able to recognize that it's the right thing to do, then to save their own rapidly falling reputation. 

[stemelbow]

This appears to be another case of Church members missing the forest for the trees.  It's happened all too often in the Church.  makes one wonder whether the combination of teaching, social pressure, tradition and culture is playing with the minds of the members a bit.  Id say the results of what we are shows we need to pay more attention to that stuff, be more cautious about being guided by that which is not the Spirit.  Sadly, all too often it comes from the top down and we feel justified. 

[ALarson]

From the article in the Huffington Post:

 

Quote

 

The petition’s author, Madi Barney, said that at the rape awareness event, the Title IX coordinator admitted “that the honor code has a ‘chilling effect’ on reporting of rape.” She also said she felt like she was “being treated not as the victim, but as a perpetrator,” and that “BYU has made it clear that victims will be punished if they report sexual violence.”

“When I sought out resources from BYU, the Title IX coordinator told me that there wasn’t enough proof of the assault to grant me those resources,” Barney, an undergrad at BYU, writes in her petition. “She also informed me that the Honor Code Office is putting a hold on my academic career by not allowing me to register for any future classes.”

“But this crime is going to trial, my rapist has been charged, and my rapist has confessed in a recorded phone call,” she continues. “I am shocked that the person whose job it is to help victims like me [is] doubting me and threatening me with retribution.”

 

How she has been treated is wrong and I'm glad she's fighting back and trying to correct it, so no one in the future has to go through what she has.

I hope it brings about some changes.

.

Edited April 15, 2016 by ALarson

[HappyJackWagon]

Quote

to use the federal provision against a crime victim in BYU's Honor Code process "goes against the legislative intent of Title IX

This case is particularly troubling because everyone the victim trusted violated that trust. The police inappropriately passed the file to the honor code office. The Title IX office and the honor code office refuse to delay their investigations which is harming the criminal prosecution. They've been told they are hindering the prosecution of the case but they are opting to investigate the victim as the #1 priority instead of allowing prosecution to continue unimpeded.

This is a disgusting abuse of power. BYU deserves all the bad press they are getting on this one.

[thesometimesaint]

4 hours ago, ALarson said:

Here's this from the Huffington Post:

"BYU Pressured To Stop Punishing Rape Victims After They Report Their Assaults"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/byu-punish-rape-victims_us_570fd88be4b0ffa5937e8457

 

Having lived in BYU married student housing doesn't help Huffington Post's position.

[mtomm]

5 hours ago, ALarson said:

Wow, that's interesting to read through.

Prosecutors say Brigham Young University is jeopardizing a pending rape prosecution because the school refuses to delay its Honor Code case against the alleged victim.

Deputy Utah County Attorney Craig Johnson brought charges against the woman's alleged attacker and said he implored school officials to consider that their Honor Code investigation of her conduct would further victimize her. He asked them to postpone their investigation until the conclusion of the trial, originally planned for next month.

He said they declined, and have barred the student from registering for future classes until she complies with the school's investigation.

 

So you are guilty until proven innocent.

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, mtomm said:

So you are guilty until proven innocent.

Guilty of what. My reading on this is that the investigation is on whether a sexual assault occurred which would not be the reason for the investigation of the Honor Code office.   I think it has to do with her actions prior to and independent of the assault.  That being getting drunk.

Edited April 15, 2016 by carbon dioxide

[mtomm]

14 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Guilty of what. My reading on this is that the investigation is on whether a sexual assault occurred which would not be the reason for the investigation of the Honor Code office.   I think it has to do with her actions prior to and independent of the assault.  That being getting drunk.

Because of the criminal case she has been advised not to participate in the Honor Code investigation. Instead of assuming she is innocent until she CAN participate it is assumed she is guilty and is barred from classes. It's not like she's just choosing not to participate because she wants to be difficult. 

Edited to add this from the article:  

Quote

And we, as prosecutors, prefer she doesn't meet with them."

 

Edited April 15, 2016 by mtomm

[juliann]

On 4/13/2016 at 8:11 AM, rongo said:

 

The same woman I mentioned above was raped a second time as a teenager. This time, it was when she was plastered with drugs and alcohol at a party. Her first rape (the stranger who kidnapped her) was very different from this second one, wasn't it? Is it "blaming the victim" to say that the second one wouldn't have happened if she had been living Church standards (her dad was a bishop)? 

It appears to me that some want "mid-spectrum" rape victims at BYU (i.e., people who were violating the honor code at the time of their rape) to have honor code immunity, because they are a rape victim. Personally, I don't, and I don't like the shrill attempts to shout down people from expressing their opinion ("blaming/shaming the victim!"). The fact is that many/most of alleged BYU "rapes" wouldn't happen if people actually followed the honor code. They are "mid-spectrum," not "stranger snatching someone off the streets at random" rapes.

I'm not saying that "mid-spectrum" victims are "fully responsible" for what happened, but I do think that at least some responsibility rests with them.

Wow, just wow. The responsibility is with the rapist. 

[bluebell]

Why does the honor code exist?  

Was the honor code made for man (ie. to mercifully help students stay safe spiritually and physically)?  Or was man made for the honor code (ie. to give justice a way to claim those who have fallen)?

It seems like understanding the purpose of the honor code would give some insight on how situations like these might best be handled.

[juliann]

On 4/14/2016 at 6:56 PM, Stargazer said:

 

There's a difference between guilt and responsibility.  The BYU student was responsible for having placed herself into a position of helplessness.  The rapist was guilty of rape.  This is not blaming the victim; this is pointing out the obvious.  The victim is well-advised to avoid doing that again in the future; the perpetrator needs to be fried.  Don't get confused.

 

Then women should just stay locked up in their well fortified homes, right? I'm helpless against a bigger stronger man every minute of the day. And children....oh, my. think of all the stupid moves they make.

This kind of thinking just has to stop.

[bluebell]

On April 13, 2016 at 9:11 AM, rongo said:

 

Ignore this, system glitch.

 

Edited April 15, 2016 by bluebell

[Jeanne]

The police report should never have been given to the Honor Code Office.  All she wants is a delay while she goes through all this. No matter what honor code violations she might face, this is illegal..and the officer, a friend of the defendant should be locked up pronto. Something is terribly wrong here. 

[bluebell]

On April 14, 2016 at 7:56 PM, Stargazer said:

There's a difference between guilt and responsibility.  The BYU student was responsible for having placed herself into a position of helplessness.  The rapist was guilty of rape.  This is not blaming the victim; this is pointing out the obvious.  The victim is well-advised to avoid doing that again in the future; the perpetrator needs to be fried.  Don't get confused.

Every time i'm alone and unarmed with a man I put myself into a position of helplessness.  Does that mean that if i'm raped in an elevator or a parking garage that i bear some of the responsibility?

And what does it even mean to bear responsibility for being helpless?  It's not a sin.  It's not a crime.  

[JulieM]

On April 13, 2016 at 10:56 AM, rongo said:

I honestly and absolutely would differentiate between my daughter being forcibly raped by a stranger off the street, and her being raped by an acquaintance (at a party for instance), where my daughter was drinking, using drugs, and otherwise violating Church standards and commandments. The two situations are very different as far as personal responsibility and preventability goes.

Wouldn't your daughter have been "forcibly raped" in either situation?  Do you think she'd need your unconditional father's love any less if it happened under the conditions of your second example above?

 

[juliann]

4 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Guilty of what. My reading on this is that the investigation is on whether a sexual assault occurred which would not be the reason for the investigation of the Honor Code office.   I think it has to do with her actions prior to and independent of the assault.  That being getting drunk.

But if she is being barred from further courses, it is not being treated independent of the assault.

I understand the conundrum and the importance of honor codes,  but in cases where there is criminal violence, the HC should be the last thing we hear about. But talk about karma, this alleged predator hands his cop friend information to turn in on her, and it results in him being outed as a rapist in national news.

[bsjkki]

If BYU unlawfully has access to Madi's police report that contain confidential medical files, isn't BYU breaking their own honor code?  But then to obey the honor code fully you have to obey the law.  If you take that to extremes, anyone who drives above the speed limit is in violation of the honor code.  

[bluebell]

On April 13, 2016 at 11:56 AM, rongo said:

I agree. But right along these lines, the victim is also responsible for her own actions. Inasmuch as her actions and choices put her in a situation where rape is possible/probable/likely, she is responsible. Not for the rape, but for putting herself in that situation.

 

 

I honestly and absolutely would differentiate between my daughter being forcibly raped by a stranger off the street, and her being raped by an acquaintance (at a party for instance), where my daughter was drinking, using drugs, and otherwise violating Church standards and commandments. The two situations are very different as far as personal responsibility and preventability goes.

Maybe try to think of it this way.  It won't change your belief, but maybe i'll help you think twice about sharing it.

After the fact (meaning, after it's happened) does it even matter if your daughter bears part of the responsibility?  Does it serve any good or merciful purpose to put that burden upon shoulders that are at their absolute breaking point in misery and despair already?

I think it was Elder Ballard who taught that some things that are true are not necessarily useful.  If you knew that you (or someone else) telling your daughter that she bore some of the responsibility for what happened 'that night' would lead to her feeling so worthless, hopeless, and broken that she would commit suicide, or become addicted to drugs in an attempt to dull the pain and die of an overdose two years later, would you support yourself (or someone else) in their expression of her responsibility?

In other words, even if you (or the other person) sincerely believed it was true, was it at all useful to your daughter to hear?  Did expressing such an opinion serve any good purpose for her?  Or is it the equivalent of rubbing salt into already deep wounds.  

Sometimes, we just need to keep our opinions to ourselves, especially when expressing them can bring about no good, and has the potential to inflict further harm and suffering.

 

[Calm]

47 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

The police report should never have been given to the Honor Code Office.  All she wants is a delay while she goes through all this. No matter what honor code violations she might face, this is illegal..and the officer, a friend of the defendant should be locked up pronto. Something is terribly wrong here. 

It does seem highly inappropriate for the Honor Code office to be using information that was essentially stolen, even if no one from the office asked for such information.  I would like to know what they have to say about it.

I really like Bluedream's suggestion of no penalty/mandatory counseling.  For those who want BYU to be available to those who really want to be there, counseling could help with this be helping victims decide what they want to do with their lives, so they make the most of their opportunity to go to BYU or figure that they don't want to be there and make that choice work for them.