BYU Campus Police- Honor Code

[Anijen]

38 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

• If you break the Honor Code should you be punished?

No, each case should be looked at individually. Some cases yes, some cases no, some cases it is better just to go to the Lord. We are even counseled not to burden our Bishops with all our sins, just the sever ones. I have seen people withhold taking the sacrament because they said one swear word (and it wasn't even a bad swear word). Having said that. The Honor Code is there for a reason and I stand behind it.

 

If you break the Honor Code and something bad happens should you be given amnesty, forgiven, begin with a new slate?

Yes and no. If that something bad that happened was not the result or the cause of you breaking the honor code then, the punishment should not be as sever as if that bad happening was the proximate cause of violating the HC. Again each violation should be, and I believe they are, judged on an individual basis. Yes there should be justice, but IMO it is better to be compassionate, have mercy and forgive. If the bad happenings continue and becomes habitual then of course more punishment is warranted.

 

 

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How horrible does it have to be to not be responsible for your own actions?

One should be responsible for every action they do, even if in a diminished state of capacity. I am not arguing against accountability, I am not saying look away, I am not advocating having an unenforceable honor code. I am looking at this one incident alone, not others. I am not adding other HC violations to this one to make a point. I am simply saying that she was raped, that is so sever and traumatic and changes ones life. Simply have some compassion. If this victim later continues to break the HC then go after her  anew.  

 

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If you are drinking and playing basketball at 2:00 a.m. in the morning and you fall badly and become a paraplegic should you be forgiven?  What if you just broke your arm?  What if you just scrapped up your knee badly?

Exactly. You are making my point. There are different levels of breaking the HC, they are looked upon each individually. This girl was raped! Even though her actions before were in violation of the HC, it does not excuse, justify or even add one iota of blame to her for being raped later.  Perhaps I am wrong, I have been many times, but it appears from reading many of these posts, they give the impression that if this student wasn't where she was, was not doing what she was doing then she would not have been raped. This is simply not true. The HC violation somehow makes some part of her being raped a small percentage to be her fault. That is where I disagree. I simply believe the HC violation should be dropped in this instance and instead of adding to her trauma we should be showing an overflowing and more fuller measurement of love. 

A lady is taken in the very act of adultery, do we stone her? Here the act was ugly, repulsive, and not consented to, do we add to that and kick her out of school? 

 

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I just don't know when we should not be held responsible for our own choices

I agree, we should be held responsible. We must realize, though, that being held responsible comes from many judges (the police, the judicial system, our schools, our parents, our Father in Heaven). IMO in this instance she will be held responsible, by her own conscience, her peers, and by Father in Heaven. Can we let go of the BYU's role in judgement in this case?  Isn't that charity, mercy, and compassionate? I am not saying do this for every HC violation, heavens no! I am saying look at this case alone! Has she not been punished enough (even though the rape was not in no way her fault)? Look at her as if she was your daughter.

 

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based upon these advocates that rape is somehow absolves an individual of all wrong.  Why?

Of course not, rape does not absolve victims of all wrong,  neither does being murdered, neither does having a million dollars stolen from you, or even having a worn down snub of a pencil stolen from you. We all will face our own transgressions alone and not have them excused away.  I cannot see Heavenly Father kicking someone who was raped out of heaven because before that they chose to drink. Just a silly comparison.

[HappyJackWagon]

8 hours ago, bsjkki said:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/3770084-155/byu-students-say-victims-of-sexual?page=4      

I have no words. ☹️

Informative article.

This addresses my original question about police reporting to the honor code office. The police don't report to Honor Code but they are required by law to inform the victim of possible services and help they may receive by reporting to the school's Title IX office. The Title IX office then reports to the honor code.

So the police are trying to get the victim services and then the organization (BYU's Title IX office) that is supposed to help the victim reports them to honor code for an investigation to see if the victim possible was guilty of breaking the honor code. This is seriously messed up. BYU should be ashamed that they use their Title IX representative this way. It causes harm and deters victims from reporting crimes. Investigating the victim is part of the school's policy. I can't even describe how angry this makes me as the father of a BYU daughter.

Read the article.

 

Edited April 13, 2016 by HappyJackWagon

[rongo]

11 hours ago, JulieM said:

What does [possible Honor Code violation in connection with alleged rape] matter?  This has nothing to do with a rape being committed or any other violent crime.

Or do you blame the victim?  Do you believe she is responsible for being raped?

The charged word "rape" is used for a number of scenarios, ranging from brutal, forced rape, to (at the beginning) consensual sex where the woman tries to stop the process and claims that her refusals weren't complied with ("no means no"). And everything in between, where it can be murky. Especially when drugs and alcohol are involved. Given BYU's unique position with its honor code, I don't think discussion of alleged honor code violations can legitimately be barred from discussion about alleged rape at BYU ("blaming the victim!").

For the record, I know women at all points along the spectrum. I know a woman who was kidnapped and raped as a teenager (snatched off the street, forced into a car, and dumped off at a random spot afterwards). Rapes of this kind are rare, and even more rare at BYU. The "rape" this discussion centers around overwhelmingly involves people who were in situations where "murky," mid-spectrum rape is more likely ---- situations where drugs and alcohol are present and being consumed, curfew is being violated, dress and behavior standards are being violated, etc. Especially when the alleged perpetrator and alleged victim are engaging in the honor code-proscribed activities. Yet, when BYU and others point out that one of the best things people can do to protect themselves from rape is to strictly adhere to the honor code, shrill cries of "blaming the victim!" ensue. 

The same woman I mentioned above was raped a second time as a teenager. This time, it was when she was plastered with drugs and alcohol at a party. Her first rape (the stranger who kidnapped her) was very different from this second one, wasn't it? Is it "blaming the victim" to say that the second one wouldn't have happened if she had been living Church standards (her dad was a bishop)? 

It appears to me that some want "mid-spectrum" rape victims at BYU (i.e., people who were violating the honor code at the time of their rape) to have honor code immunity, because they are a rape victim. Personally, I don't, and I don't like the shrill attempts to shout down people from expressing their opinion ("blaming/shaming the victim!"). The fact is that many/most of alleged BYU "rapes" wouldn't happen if people actually followed the honor code. They are "mid-spectrum," not "stranger snatching someone off the streets at random" rapes.

I'm not saying that "mid-spectrum" victims are "fully responsible" for what happened, but I do think that at least some responsibility rests with them.

Edited April 13, 2016 by rongo

[Gray]

3 minutes ago, rongo said:

The same woman I mentioned above was raped a second time as a teenager. This time, it was when she was plastered with drugs and alcohol at a party. Her first rape (the stranger who kidnapped her) was very different from this second one, wasn't it? Is it "blaming the victim" to say that the second one wouldn't have happened if she had been living Church standards (her dad was a bishop)? 

 

It sounds like she was self-medicating after her previous trauma. 

[rongo]

2 minutes ago, Gray said:

It sounds like she was self-medicating after her previous trauma. 

Yes, she has made a lot of bad decisions in her life. Probably better to self-medicate alone (if you must) than with other self-medicators in a party setting, though . . . 

[ALarson]

1 minute ago, rongo said:

Yes, she has made a lot of bad decisions in her life. Probably better to self-medicate alone (if you must) than with other self-medicators in a party setting, though . . . 

I don't care if someone is passed out drunk on the floor (or from taking drugs), they do not deserve to be attacked in any way or raped.  The rapist is responsible for that act. Period.

[thesometimesaint]

35 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I don't care if someone is passed out drunk on the floor (or from taking drugs), they do not deserve to be attacked in any way or raped.  The rapist is responsible for that act. Period.

Agreed.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Informative article.

This addresses my original question about police reporting to the honor code office. The police don't report to Honor Code but they are required by law to inform the victim of possible services and help they may receive by reporting to the school's Title IX office. The Title IX office then reports to the honor code.

So the police are trying to get the victim services and then the organization (BYU's Title IX office) that is supposed to help the victim reports them to honor code for an investigation to see if the victim possible was guilty of breaking the honor code. This is seriously messed up. BYU should be ashamed that they use their Title IX representative this way. It causes harm and deters victims from reporting crimes. Investigating the victim is part of the school's policy. I can't even describe how angry this makes me as the father of a BYU daughter.

Read the article.

 

Students are simply responsible for keeping both the Honor Code and the law. Anyone may report criminal activity (to the state-certified Police Department) and Honor Code infractions (through the compliance hotline, for example).

A victim reporting rape is wrought with internal conflict (my understanding is that student victims tend not to report). A student self-reporting Honor Code infractions is also (and I suppose even fewer of these report). The two can certainly be the same person; some will report one or the other or both. The person is investigated for Honor Code infractions by virtue of being a student, not a victim -- no more than law enforcement investigates the parties involved on the basis of their adherence to the Honor Code.

Structures are in place to protect victims, and there is also a due process in handling Honor Code infractions: https://policy.byu.edu/view/index.php?p=171

[HappyJackWagon]

12 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Students are simply responsible for keeping both the Honor Code and the law. Anyone may report criminal activity (to the state-certified Police Department) and Honor Code infractions (through the compliance hotline, for example).

 

A victim reporting rape is wrought with internal conflict (my understanding is that student victims tend not to report). A student self-reporting Honor Code infractions is also (and I suppose even fewer of these report). The two can certainly be the same person; some will report one or the other or both. The person is investigated for Honor Code infractions by virtue of being a student, not a victim -- no more than law enforcement investigates the parties involved on the basis of their adherence to the Honor Code.

 

Structures are in place to protect victims, and there is also a due process in handling Honor Code infractions: https://policy.byu.edu/view/index.php?p=171

If you report being a victim, by policy the honor code office opens an investigation. The investigation could lead to discipline including expulsion. In that kind of atmosphere why would a victim risk additional consequences? The fear that the report could result in the victim's expulsion prevents them from reporting. Rapists remain on campus because the honor code office feels it's more important to investigate smaller infractions than creating an atmosphere of safe reporting.

BW- this is a college issue, not just a BYU issue. The policies of honor code enforcement exacerbate the problem.

[ALarson]

7 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

BW- this is a college issue, not just a BYU issue. The policies of honor code enforcement exacerbate the problem.

 

I asked this on the other thread and maybe someone reading here will know the answer:

Why is the Title IX office required to give confidential statements (that were given to the police) to the Honor Code Office at BYU?  

Is this something that takes place between all Title IX offices and other private universities?

 

Is there some type of a private agreement between the Title IX office and the BYU Honor Code Office (and possibly at other universities too)?

[CV75]

36 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

If you report being a victim, by policy the honor code office opens an investigation. The investigation could lead to discipline including expulsion. In that kind of atmosphere why would a victim risk additional consequences? The fear that the report could result in the victim's expulsion prevents them from reporting. Rapists remain on campus because the honor code office feels it's more important to investigate smaller infractions than creating an atmosphere of safe reporting.

BW- this is a college issue, not just a BYU issue. The policies of honor code enforcement exacerbate the problem.

I know this gets debated from time to time across college campuses, but I think you’re taking a few (too many) shortcuts and experiencing too much fear yourself. Plus your OP and article refer to BYU.

The criminal investigation could lead to the victim deciding to share Honor Code infractions with a campus office. That could lead to an administrative investigation about the Honor Code. That could lead to discipline, which could entail expulsion. The perpetrators could also report the victimized student’s Honor Code infractions, and the victims could not be afraid, or could overcome their fear, of reporting anything.

The Honor Code Investigation and Administrative Review Process allows discretion in decision-making, and I am sure this discretion is exercised consistent with BYU and Christian values for the best outcome: https://policy.byu.edu/view/index.php?p=171

I already acknowledged the fear of the risk of consequences for both the victim and the student. Fear is understandable, and is not rational either, hence the need for law enforcement policies and procedures and university due process. Also the need for parents to preemptively educate their children on what to expect and take responsibility for as students leaving home and exposing themselves to potentially compromising (Honor Code) and dangerous (rape) situations. And universities and other agencies raising awareness for these issues as well and making appropriate resources available to students and victims.

Despite their underdeveloped frontal lobes, no college student can use the law or honor code (or fear thereof) to make the wrong choices with regards to either Honor Code infractions or reporting a rape, and whether they deal appropriately with the Honor Code before or after being victimized.

[ALarson]

19 minutes ago, CV75 said:

The criminal investigation could lead to the victim deciding to share Honor Code infractions with a campus office. That could lead to an administrative investigation about the Honor Code. That could lead to discipline, which could entail expulsion. The perpetrators could also report the victimized student’s Honor Code infractions, and the victims could not be afraid, or could overcome their fear, of reporting anything.

This is not what has been stated. I'd need to find it again, but I read  the police are required to share information with the Title IX office and that they are required to contact the Honor Code Office.

(I would like to know if this is accurate.)

[rongo]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

I don't care if someone is passed out drunk on the floor (or from taking drugs), they do not deserve to be attacked in any way or raped.  The rapist is responsible for that act. Period.

I've never said that the victim "deserves to be raped." This is the sort of shift that unfairly inflames a discussion.

What I am saying is that victims who use drugs or alcohol or put themselves in situations fraught with potential carry at least some responsibility. They don't deserve what happens, but their poor decisions are a factor in what happens. 

This is true, in spades, of those who violate the honor code. If students are not using drugs or alcohol, are adhering to the curfew, are following dress and behavior standards, and are not putting themselves in places or situations where others are acting in violation of these things, they are far, far less likely to be attacked or raped. 

How can that even be controversial?

[ALarson]

6 minutes ago, rongo said:

I've never said that the victim "deserves to be raped." This is the sort of shift that unfairly inflames a discussion.

What I am saying is that victims who use drugs or alcohol or put themselves in situations fraught with potential carry at least some responsibility.

Responsibility for what if not the rape?  The rapist alone is responsible for the rape.

[rongo]

9 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Responsibility for what if not the rape?  The rapist alone is responsible for the rape.

We differ on this.

I'm not saying equal responsibility, I'm saying "at least some." 

That's also why I differentiated between outright rape (a stranger kidnapping someone and forcing them --- no victim responsibility) and situations where a rape occurs but the victim had some/much control of the background and circumstances (i.e., it could have been prevented or made significantly less likely by reasonable action by the victim).

Do you honestly see the two as completely identical?

Edited April 13, 2016 by rongo

[ALarson]

Just now, rongo said:

We differ on this.

I'm not saying equal responsibility, I'm saying "at least some." 

That's also why I differentiated between outright rape (a stranger kidnapping someone and forcing them --- no victim responsibility) and situations where a rape occurs but the victim had some/much control of the background and circumstances (i.e., it could have been prevented or made significantly less likely).

Do you honestly see the two as completely identical?

I believe that a person is responsible for their own actions.  Rape is an action.  The rapist is responsible for this action.

I think a victim of rape committed by an acquaintance (at a party for instance) is harmed just as much as if they are raped by a stranger.  Would you honestly differentiate if it was your daughter who was raped?  

[CV75]

29 minutes ago, ALarson said:

This is not what has been stated. I'd need to find it again, but I read  the police are required to share information with the Title IX office and that they are required to contact the Honor Code Office.

(I would like to know if this is accurate.)

Any problem calling the BYU Title IX office?

[rongo]

4 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I believe that a person is responsible for their own actions.  Rape is an action.  The rapist is responsible for this action.

I agree. But right along these lines, the victim is also responsible for her own actions. Inasmuch as her actions and choices put her in a situation where rape is possible/probable/likely, she is responsible. Not for the rape, but for putting herself in that situation.

I think a victim of rape committed by an acquaintance (at a party for instance) is harmed just as much as if they are raped by a stranger.  Would you honestly differentiate if it was your daughter who was raped?

I honestly and absolutely would differentiate between my daughter being forcibly raped by a stranger off the street, and her being raped by an acquaintance (at a party for instance), where my daughter was drinking, using drugs, and otherwise violating Church standards and commandments. The two situations are very different as far as personal responsibility and preventability goes.

[ALarson]

3 minutes ago, rongo said:

I honestly and absolutely would differentiate between my daughter being forcibly raped by a stranger off the street, and her being raped by an acquaintance (at a party for instance), where my daughter was drinking, using drugs, and otherwise violating Church standards and commandments. The two situations are very different as far as personal responsibility and preventability goes.

Wow.  Ok.

We definitely disagree on this, but I see no need to further discuss it with you as you seem to have your mind made up.

[Storm Rider]

2 hours ago, ALarson said:

I don't care if someone is passed out drunk on the floor (or from taking drugs), they do not deserve to be attacked in any way or raped.  The rapist is responsible for that act. Period.

AL, I agree with you.  Though some might describe the situations involving rape along a spectrum or range of circumstances I remain convinced that the range of circumstances is irrelevant.  An individual who is raped is raped.  I don't want to cloud the issue and debate the issue.  There is only a single person responsible for a rape - that is the rapist.  I have already stated it once, but I will state it again.  A rapist, any rapist, regardless of the circumstances surrounding an actual rape, should be made that they will never have the ability to rape again.  Full Stop.

When it comes to the Honor Code I am equally as committed.  If you break the Honor Code then there should be consequences.  I believe in treating each student fairly.  I do not believe in a proscribed set of punishments (unless we are talking about repeatedly violating the Honor Code) that are required to be implemented.  I believe the committee responsible for reviewing HC violations should be empowered to consider circumstances.  This review does not necessarily create unequal treatment.  In other words, I think there should be some wiggle room depending upon the circumstances surrounding a violation.  

However, as a past student BYU - one year and then I woke up and graduated from the U - I never had a problem with breaking the Honor Code.  I did not see anyone who broke the Honor Code to my memory.  Granted it has been many decades, but to my memory I don't recall any violation by another student.  We must be talking about a small percentage of students at BYU that do willfully violate the HC.  I don't have a lot of patience for them and I feel like they should usually be treated sternly with few exceptions.  

If someone thinks, as a student, there is a high probability of violating the HC at BYU, then don't go.  It is not for you and you do not deserve to attend.  There are literally thousands of other students that would not violate the HC and are seeking to attend.   

[CV75]

2 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Wow.  Ok.

We definitely disagree on this, but I see no need to further discuss it with you as you seem to have your mind made up.

Is your mind not made up? What is it you are weighing at this point?

I actually tried to call the Title IX Office but didn't feel like leaving any messages. In the process of searching, it seems reasonable to believe (the "eye-witness" reports of what others said) that the Title IX Office reports the honor code infractions of all parties involved in a sexual crime to the Honor Code Office.

I think so many parties are involved with the overall welfare of victims that their fears about breaking the honor code would pale in comparison to seeking justice, protection and healing.

[ALarson]

11 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Is your mind not made up? What is it you are weighing at this point?

Yes (on the point rongo and I were discussing).

11 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I actually tried to call the Title IX Office but didn't feel like leaving any messages. In the process of searching, it seems reasonable to believe (the "eye-witness" reports of what others said) that the Title IX Office reports the honor code infractions of all parties involved in a sexual crime to the Honor Code Office.

Thanks for trying to call.  It would be interesting to know the answer as to why (or if) the police are required to turn over the victim's statement to the Title IX Office and then if they are in turn required to share this information with the university's Honor Code Office.  Eye witness reports would also fall under the same guidelines and regulations, I would imagine as all these would be part of the investigation by the police.

I have just always believed that a victim's privacy is protected and that whatever statements they make to the police are also protected and are not shared without their permission.

I would have a huge issue if this were my daughter who was raped and her statement was shared (without her permission) and this led to her being expelled from school.  

.

 

Edited April 13, 2016 by ALarson

[HappyJackWagon]

30 minutes ago, rongo said:

I honestly and absolutely would differentiate between my daughter being forcibly raped by a stranger off the street, and her being raped by an acquaintance (at a party for instance), where my daughter was drinking, using drugs, and otherwise violating Church standards and commandments. The two situations are very different as far as personal responsibility and preventability goes.

I feel sorry for your daughter. Seriously.

BTW- is there any kind of rape besides "forcible". It's kind of part of the definition isn't it. I find it disheartening that a father (and I believe you're a bishop as well) would treat a rape survivor as culpable because she'd had a drink or maybe her skirt is shorter than you deem appropriate. Rape survivors deserve compassion, not judgment and condemnation.

ETA- I'm too emotional about this topic so I'm out.

Edited April 13, 2016 by HappyJackWagon

[Storm Rider]

12 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I feel sorry for your daughter. Seriously.

BTW- is there any kind of rape besides "forcible". It's kind of part of the definition isn't it. I find it disheartening that a father (and I believe you're a bishop as well) would treat a rape survivor as culpable because she'd had a drink or maybe her skirt is shorter than you deem appropriate. Rape survivors deserve compassion, not judgment and condemnation.

ETA- I'm too emotional about this topic so I'm out.

Happy, that is the problem with this topic.  It generates so much emotion by some people that a logical discussion is often not easily accomplished.  

I repeat, if an individual does not feel like they can completely support living by the standards of the HC then BYU is not for them.  If there is a 25% chance they cannot observe the standard - then go elsewhere.  A private, religious school is not for that individual.  This is fair to the individual and to every other student at BYU or who would like to attend.  

Just as an aside so that you understand I am not a rabid BYU supporter.  I graduated from the U.  At one time I believed in public schools, but they failed our children.  Since that time our children attended private schools.  We wanted our kids to attend Ivy league caliber schools - not one applied for such an school. They all wanted to go to BYU and did.  Not knocking the academic achievements of BYU, but we just had another vision.  Our children corrected our vision for their university education and we saved a bundle of money.  I am committed to private schools and the standards they set.  They are to be observed and if not - don't go. 

[CV75]

21 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Yes (on the point rongo and I were discussing).

Thanks for trying to call.  It would be interesting to know the answer as to why (or if) the police are required to turn over the victim's statement to the Title IX Office and then if they are in turn required to share this information with the university's Honor Code Office.  Eye witness reports would also fall under the same guidelines and regulations, I would imagine as all these would be part of the investigation by the police.

I have just always believed that a victim's privacy is protected and that whatever statements they make to the police are also protected and are not shared without their permission.

I would have a huge issue if this were my daughter who was raped and her statement was shared (without her permission) and this led to her being expelled from school.

The police department is state-certified, so whatever they're doing is at least "kosher," and there are other legal principles at play than privacy protection alone.

If it were my child, I would be more concerned with her (or him) getting treatment, justice, future protection, healing and recovery. While there is an element of personal responsibility on her part for each of those processes, I would support and coach her all the way to get into a good place.