BYU Campus Police- Honor Code

[mtomm]

6 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

In a number of recent articles and even threads on this board I've seen discussions about how BYU promotes the rape culture by reporting the activities of the victim to the school.

So, for example, if a BYU student was drinking at a party and was later raped, if she reported the rape to the campus police they would report to BYU that not only was she a victim, but she had broken the honor code by drinking at a party. She could therefore be subject to school discipline including possible expulsion.

I'm curious if anyone can explain the relationship between the university and the police. It seems totally inappropriate for the police to tattle to the university about the legal activities of a student. I've mentioned this confusion to others and they act like it is totally normal because they are "campus police" so naturally they would report to the university.

I'm really confused by this. Could someone please shed some light for me.

I remembered a kerfluffle of this type happening at BYU_Idaho.  This was a Deseret News article I found. This must be something that varies according state laws perhaps.  

Rexburg Police Patrol Campus

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"The City of Rexburg exceeded its authority by entering into an agreement with BYU-Idaho for the joint exercise of law enforcement authority," the opinion reads. "Idaho authorizes joint powers agreements to be entered into only between public entities. As a private educational institution, BYU-Idaho is not a public agency."

 

 

Edited April 12, 2016 by mtomm

[Jeanne]

Question:  If a rape or violation occurs off campus, what are Provo policemen obligated to do as far as BYU Honor Code?  Is there any communication off campus from regular police to Campus police?

[Russell C McGregor]

8 hours ago, bsjkki said:

She confirms that retaliation was the motivation.  

Madi says:

April 12, 2016 at 9:35 am

These hypothetical situations are useless. They have nothing to do with rape, the Honor Code (which is actually NOT law), and should not be misconstrued to seem as they do.

And Jane – the Honor Code Office was used as retaliation in my case. The friend of my rapist turned my report in into the Honor Code Office in order to retaliate against me.

And was she, or was she not, in breach of the Honor Code?

[Russell C McGregor]

10 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

STOP THIS NONSENSE. The victim is not responsible for their being victimized. End of story.

Nobody said that they were. At whom are you SHOUTING?

 

[bsjkki]

24 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said:

And was she, or was she not, in breach of the Honor Code?

I don't know and I don't care.

[Russell C McGregor]

1 minute ago, bsjkki said:

I don't know and I don't care.

Maybe you should.

If you are genuinely interested in protecting young women from sexual assault -- as opposed to getting grumpy at BYU for not throwing their standards out of the window in order to join in your moral panic -- then you should encourage them to observe the Honor Code.

 

[JulieM]

34 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said:

And was she, or was she not, in breach of the Honor Code?

What does that matter?  This has nothing to do with a rape being committed or any other violent crime.

Or do you blame the victim?  Do you believe she is responsible for being raped?

Edited April 13, 2016 by JulieM

[Russell C McGregor]

11 hours ago, USU78 said:

Rape culture?

Look, I'm certainly no fan of yBu, but to say there is a "rape culture" there is beyond silly, especially where, as demonstrated by me in the other thread, yBu gets an A- safety rating as compared to USU's A rating.  How can yBu be one of the institutions most highly rated for safety if it is a haven for rapists to the extent of having an entire culture named after them?

Besides:  http://nypost.com/2015/09/27/the-myth-of-the-college-rape-culture/

I wonder if anyone bothers to look at links that don't support their ideological expectations.

[Russell C McGregor]

4 minutes ago, JulieM said:

What does that matter?

It matters because she is complaining that she was reported to the Honor Code office. The question of whether or not she was in breach is entirely relevant to that report.

 

4 minutes ago, JulieM said:

 This has nothing to do with a rape being committed or any other violent crime.

Just like the fact that the rape or other violent crime has nothing to do with whether or not she was in breach of the Honor Code.

4 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Or do you blame the victim?  Do you believe she is responsible for being raped?

No.

(It shouldn't be necessary for me to keep repeating this, but accusations like yours are what keeps a witch hunt going.)

I do, however, believe she is responsible for whether she follows the Honor Code, as she contracted to do.

 

[JulieM]

19 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said:

Just like the fact that the rape or other violent crime has nothing to do with whether or not she was in breach of the Honor Code.

...

I do, however, believe she is responsible for whether she follows the Honor Code, as she contracted to do.

Which is irrelevant to the rape.  Nice try though. 

You most certainly seem to be attributing responsibility to the victim for their rape, in my opinion.

A rape victim should not have to worry that what she shares with the police about her rape is going to be shared with the honor code office.  

Edited April 13, 2016 by JulieM

[Russell C McGregor]

1 minute ago, JulieM said:

Which is irrelevant to the rape.

I never said it was relevant to the rape.

I said it was relevant to the fact that someone reported her to the Honor Code Office.

Try paying attention.

1 minute ago, JulieM said:

  Nice try though. 

Same to you.

1 minute ago, JulieM said:

You most certainly seem to be attributing responsibility to the victim for their rape, in my opinion.

The sole world expert in what I was thinking says your opinion is, umm, "mistaken."

1 minute ago, JulieM said:

A rape victim should not have to worry that what she shares with the police about her rape are going to be shared with the honor code office.  

And if you follow the discussion, it wasn't. A third party reported her to the Honor Code Office.

[Anijen]

8 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said:

I never said it was relevant to the rape.

I said it was relevant to the fact that someone reported her to the Honor Code Office.

Try paying attention.

Same to you.

The sole world expert in what I was thinking says your opinion is, umm, "mistaken."

And if you follow the discussion, it wasn't. A third party reported her to the Honor Code Office.

I know you don't blame the victim, but the "tone" of your words seem to transfer a callus cold attitude toward the victim.

Personally I believe all of BYUs students should keep the honor code standards (after all they agreed to do so).

 

However, having said that, in situations like these, I believe the privacy of the victim should in all efforts be maintained, and trumps the reporting of her HC violations. Why traumatize the victim more?  Besides students will usually get caught if it happens often. 

[Russell C McGregor]

3 minutes ago, Anijen said:

I know you don't blame the victim, but the "tone" of your words seem to transfer a callus cold attitude toward the victim.

Personally I believe all of BYUs students should keep the honor code standards (after all they agreed to do so).

 

However, having said that, in situations like these, I believe the privacy of the victim should in all efforts be maintained, and trumps the reporting of her HC violations. Why traumatize the victim more?  Besides students will usually get caught if it happens often. 

All of which is true. Did you read back into the thread?

A person reported that she had been sexually assaulted. (Good for her for reporting it.) Someone else reported that she had been in breach of the Honor Code.

She complained that it was retaliation for making the report. Maybe it was and maybe it wasn't; but that looks to me like she's trying to hide behind her assault. As if, having been attacked, the rules that apply to everyone else should no longer apply to her.

I think that's a red herring. The only question that is relevant to someone turning her in for Honor Code violations is, was she in breach? If not, she's got nothing to worry about. But if she was, then maybe expecting a free pass because she'd been assaulted is just a bit too precious.

 

[Anijen]

1 hour ago, Russell C McGregor said:

...but that looks to me like she's trying to hide behind her assault. As if, having been attacked, the rules that apply to everyone else should no longer apply to her.

Even if what you say is true, I still believe a rape victim has suffered greatly and restoration is impossible. She needs not have more grief at this time. Sometimes we need justice,  but in this instance compassion needs to outweigh the stacking on. 

 

 

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I think that's a red herring.

Oh my mistake then. I see I must be wrong. It is a red herring, give it to her then, the wretched sinner. Have no mercy! She deserves to be expelled and wear the scarlet R on her clothes and branded as a partier where ever she goes.

 

 

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The only question that is relevant to someone turning her in for Honor Code violations is, was she in breach?

Really? The only thing relevant? Even if she is guilty of violating the HC, it doesn't justify piling on the added grief for being raped. Nobody is perfect, all sin, some more than others. Some even struggle, oh my, yes, with alcohol addiction.

 

When reading your responses I cant help of thinking of one who obeys the letter of the law, but not the spirit, the literal interpretation of the honor code and cannot have any flexibility and must be an absolute blanket policy. Yes? I'm sorry I subscribe to a more mercy, compassionate judge.

 

 

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If not, she's got nothing to worry about. But if she was, then maybe expecting a free pass because she'd been assaulted is just a bit too precious.

Yeah you got me there, hang her.

 

There is a huge difference between being assaulted and being raped.

Did you know assaulted is just being frightened? You don't even need to be touched to be assaulted, e.g. blowing cigarette smoke in a non-smokers face is an assault.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Anijen

[strappinglad]

The original OP was in a state of upset because it was assumed that the BYU campus police had reported the HC violation. Turns out they didn't. Turns out they didn't . Turns out they didn't. Is that enough times for it to get through? Now we are arguing about whether or not the rape was sufficient punishment .That the HC group is piling on. If the person assaulted had been a male and had lost the sight of one eye , what would have been the result? What if any difference would there be in the discussion ? Would the HC violation even be taken to the University ? If we were to all agree that the male victim had been sufficiently harmed and there is no need to further punish him for any HC violation, then we would at least be consistent.

[Russell C McGregor]

25 minutes ago, Anijen said:

Even if what you say is true, I still believe a rape victim has suffered greatly and restoration is impossible. She needs not have more grief at this time. Sometimes we need justice,  but in this instance compassion needs to outweigh the stacking on. 

"Stacking on?"

Can you dial back the melodrama?

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Oh my mistake then. I see I must be wrong. It is a red herring, give it to her then, the wretched sinner. Have no mercy! She deserves to be expelled and wear the scarlet R on her clothes and branded as a partier where ever she goes.

Who said anything about being expelled or wearing a "scarlet R?" Certainly not me.

Quote

Really? The only thing relevant? Even if she is guilty of violating the HC, it doesn't justify piling on the added grief for being raped. Nobody is perfect, all sin, some more than others. Some even struggle, oh my, yes, with alcohol addiction.

All of which may be true, but my point stands: the only thing relevant to her being reported for Honor Code violations is the question of whether or not she was in breach.

Does every HC violation automatically incur expulsion?

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When reading your responses I cant help of thinking of one who obeys the letter of the law, but not the spirit, the literal interpretation of the honor code and cannot have any flexibility and must be an absolute blanket policy. Yes? I'm sorry I subscribe to a more mercy, compassionate judge.

And when reading your responses I cannot help thinking of one who subscribes to a truly idiotic "Victim[TM]" ideology that denies that anyone who can claim "Victim[TM]" status should ever be expected to be held responsible for anything wrong they do, either at the time of their bad experience or any other time.

Is my imagination as overactive as yours?

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Yeah you got me there, hang her.

That's not what I said. Nor is it what I was thinking.

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There is a huge difference between being assaulted and being raped.

Did you know assaulted is just being frightened? You don't even need to be touched to be assaulted, e.g. blowing cigarette smoke in a non-smokers face is an assault.

It's a generic term. Among those trying to create the moral panic to which all the internet lemmings are flocking, "sexual assault" is a category that includes such horrendous offenses as repeatedly asking someone out. And yet the screaming headlines use "rape" and "sexual assault" interchangeably.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Russell C McGregor

[thesometimesaint]

12 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

This is the type of thing that where it become pre-programmed trite phrases that only show emotion and no rational discussion.  Not a single person has ever said the victim of a rape is responsible for being raped, yet this knee-jerk response is quite common.  It is impossible to have a discussion about common sense, avoiding risky behavior, because of the great god of rape theology commands that the victim is not responsible for her actions.  It is just tiring.

God forbid a university that significantly subsidized by the Church making tuition affordable also have the temerity to have an honor code - something each student promises to observe and not to violate.  In addition, the vast majority of the students are members of the LDS Church that has some pretty clear teachings on what is and what is not acceptable behavior.  However, the rape god comes on the scene and everything is dismissed because the victim is not responsible for her rape, WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CONVERSATION.  

All students will be treated equally and fairly.  If you violate the Honor Code you open yourself up for discipline.  It does not matter if another crime was committed at the same time - each student remains responsible for their actions and the resulting consequences for violations of the Honor Code.  It is just so simple.  

Blaming the victim again. JUST STOP.

[bsjkki]

http://www.sltrib.com/news/3770084-155/byu-students-say-victims-of-sexual?page=4      

I have no words. ☹️

[Bernard Gui]

16 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

STOP THIS NONSENSE. The victim is not responsible for their being victimized. End of story.

I don't believe anyone is saying that. Is the victim responsible for choosing to violate the Honor Code? If so, does having something bad happen during or after that violation absolve the victim from violating the Code?

[Russell C McGregor]

4 hours ago, thesometimesaint said:

Blaming the victim again. JUST STOP.

No, he was not.

If you can't bear to read opinions you dislike, perhaps you might need to read something else.

[Russell C McGregor]

4 hours ago, strappinglad said:

The original OP was in a state of upset because it was assumed that the BYU campus police had reported the HC violation. Turns out they didn't. Turns out they didn't . Turns out they didn't. Is that enough times for it to get through? Now we are arguing about whether or not the rape was sufficient punishment .That the HC group is piling on. If the person assaulted had been a male and had lost the sight of one eye , what would have been the result? What if any difference would there be in the discussion ? Would the HC violation even be taken to the University ? If we were to all agree that the male victim had been sufficiently harmed and there is no need to further punish him for any HC violation, then we would at least be consistent.

But would we all agree on that, though?

When we have ladies who think women being paid less than men is a crime while men being paid less than women is a cause for celebration, I have to wonder.

[Russell C McGregor]

4 hours ago, bsjkki said:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/3770084-155/byu-students-say-victims-of-sexual?page=4      

I have no words. ☹️

Since it's the very same report you've been talking up in the other thread, I'm sure you can think of something.

[JulieM]

58 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said:

Since it's the very same report you've been talking up in the other thread, I'm sure you can think of something.

This article has more details than others I've seen.  Victims are speaking out about their rapes and being expelled from BYU.

Did you even read it?

[Storm Rider]

I wish I could just understand where people are drawing the line.  

• If you break the Honor Code should you be punished?
• If you break the Honor Code and something bad happens should you be given amnesty, forgiven, begin with a new slate?
• If you break the Honor Code and something terrible, horrible happens should you be given amnesty, forgiven, begin with a new slate?
• How horrible does it have to be to not be responsible for your own actions?
• If you are drinking and playing basketball at 2:00 a.m. in the morning and you fall badly and become a paraplegic should you be forgiven?  What if you just broke your arm?  What if you just scrapped up your knee badly? 

I just don't know when we should not be held responsible for our own choices based upon these advocates that rape is somehow absolves an individual of all wrong.  Why?

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, Russell C McGregor said:

Since it's the very same report you've been talking up in the other thread, I'm sure you can think of something.

It is a new report and was posted without comment on the other thread.  If you can read the article and believe BYU should not improve its treament of sexual assault victims, there really  is nothing more I could ever say to convince you.