BYU Campus Police- Honor Code

[ALarson]

1 minute ago, CV75 said:

The police department is state-certified, so whatever they're doing is at least "kosher," and there are other legal principles at play than privacy protection alone.

I guess this is the question here then.  Is the police department required to share the victim's statement with the IX office?

So far, I have not seen anyone answer that here (but you certainly tried  ).

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

I guess this is the question here then.  Is the police department required to share the victim's statement with the IX office?

So far, I have not seen anyone answer that here (but you certainly tried  ).

My understanding is they only refer the victim to Title IX so if the victim didn't go to title IX they'd probably be ok

ETA- OK in the sense that they wouldn't be subjected to school discipline

 

Edited April 13, 2016 by HappyJackWagon

[rongo]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

BTW- is there any kind of rape besides "forcible". It's kind of part of the definition isn't it.

Sure. There's "statutory," which includes no force at all. There's "aggravated," which includes use of deadly force as a threat. Then there's the recent "rape culture" mania, which leads to hyper-inflated campus statistics (like one in five girls have been or will be raped on college campuses) and the expansion of the word "rape" to include all kinds of other things. 

http://www.nationalreview.com/tags/rape-culture

Many of the new "rape culture" victims' stories (especially the ones that metastatize in the media) and evidence are by no means cut-and-dried. When the evidence exonerates the alleged perpetrators (sometimes via victim retraction), there is no media coverage at all. 

 

Quote

 

I find it disheartening that a father (and I believe you're a bishop as well) would treat a rape survivor as culpable because she'd had a drink or maybe her skirt is shorter than you deem appropriate. Rape survivors deserve compassion, not judgment and condemnation

 

It depends on what kind of rape survivor one is (i.e., what happened). And I would never say "100% culpable" --- but depending on what happened, possibly there is some responsibility. I find it disheartening that some, apparently, want absolutely no discussion of poor choices that put people in positions where bad things happen. 

Of course rape survivors deserve compassion. I don't believe that compassion and discussion about bad choices are mutually exclusive.

 

Edited April 13, 2016 by rongo

[ALarson]

1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said:

My understanding is they only refer the victim to Title IX so if the victim didn't go to title IX they'd probably be ok

 

Ok, thanks.  That makes more sense.

But, it sounds like the Title IX office is required to share information with the Honor Code Office though, is that correct? 

[CV75]

23 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

My understanding is they only refer the victim to Title IX so if the victim didn't go to title IX they'd probably be ok

 

That's my understanding, with the exception "that they'd probably be ok." Really? They'd be ok?

[CV75]

21 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Ok, thanks.  That makes more sense.

But, it sounds like the Title IX office is required to share information with the Honor Code Office though, is that correct? 

That is my understanding, but what are the ramifications of whether it is or isn't required?

[ERMD]

The term "rape culture" in and of itself is meaningless and inflammatory.  How any of the following applies to rape and college campuses is beyond me:

Merriam-Webster

Full Definition of culture

1. 1:  cultivation, tillage

2. 2:  the act of developing the intellectual and moral faculties especially by education

3. 3:  expert care and training <beauty culture>

4. 4a :  enlightenment and excellence of taste acquired by intellectual and aesthetic trainingb :  acquaintance with and taste in fine arts, humanities, and broad aspects of science as distinguished from vocational and technical skills

5. 5a :  the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generationsb :  the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group; also :  the characteristic features of everyday existence (as diversions or a way of life) shared by people in a place or time <popular culture> <southern culture>c :  the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution or organization <a corporate culture focused on the bottom line>d :  the set of values, conventions, or social practices associated with a particular field, activity, or societal characteristic <studying the effect of computers on print culture><changing the culture of materialism will take time — Peggy O'Mara>

6. 6:  the act or process of cultivating living material (as bacteria or viruses) in prepared nutrient media; also :  a product of such cultivation

 

[bsjkki]

I didn't realize the link only contained the last page of the story.  Here is the full report.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/3770084-155/byu-students-say-victims-of-sexual?fullpage=1

[Stargazer]

8 hours ago, ALarson said:

Responsibility for what if not the rape?  The rapist alone is responsible for the rape.

We seem to be getting meanings of words mixed up.

If I jump out of a perfectly good airplane, having beforehand incorrectly packed my own parachute, I am responsible for going splat on the ground.

If I jump out of a perfectly good airplane, someone else having incorrectly packed my parachute, he is responsible for my going splat on the ground.

If I jump out of a perfectly good airplane, someone else (my insurance beneficiary) having intentionally incorrectly packed my parachute, he is both responsible and guilty for my going splat on the ground.

Laban was responsible for drinking so much he passed out in the middle of Jerusalem the week before Nephi came into the city, and a cutpurse stole all his money (this was why he was carrying a sword the next week when Nephi found him dead drunk again).  So Laban was responsible for having placed himself in the position of helplessness; the cutpurse was guilty of robbery.

There's a difference between guilt and responsibility.  The BYU student was responsible for having placed herself into a position of helplessness.  The rapist was guilty of rape.  This is not blaming the victim; this is pointing out the obvious.  The victim is well-advised to avoid doing that again in the future; the perpetrator needs to be fried.  Don't get confused.

The Honor Code issue is separate.  IMHO

Edited April 14, 2016 by Stargazer

[sjdawg]

On 4/13/2016 at 5:52 AM, Russell C McGregor said:

And was she, or was she not, in breach of the Honor Code?

It is this attitude that will cause people not to report being victims of a crime. 

[Russell C McGregor]

4 minutes ago, sjdawg said:

It is this attitude that will cause people not to report being victims of a crime. 

"This attitude?"

I would thank you for demonstrating how moral panics work, but it's actually a bit superfluous. That bandwagon is already rolling.

But if you'd bothered to read back through the thread, you'd discover that the Honor Code violations of the lady in question didn't come to light because she reported being a victim of a crime. They came to light because a third party turned her in.

She complained that it was just to punish her for reporting the attack, but that's not actually relevant. What's relevant is whether or not the Honor Code report was valid.

Claiming that the rules that apply to some people don't apply equally to others is called "special pleading."

[sjdawg]

4 minutes ago, Russell C McGregor said:

"This attitude?"

I would thank you for demonstrating how moral panics work, but it's actually a bit superfluous. That bandwagon is already rolling.

But if you'd bothered to read back through the thread, you'd discover that the Honor Code violations of the lady in question didn't come to light because she reported being a victim of a crime. They came to light because a third party turned her in.

She complained that it was just to punish her for reporting the attack, but that's not actually relevant. What's relevant is whether or not the Honor Code report was valid.

Claiming that the rules that apply to some people don't apply equally to others is called "special pleading."

I've read the thread.  thanks.  I also read the newspaper article where victims of rape stated they were afraid to report the assaults because of potential punishment for them from the honor code office.   The victims face a very real issue.  Do they report the rape and put a dangerous criminal behind bars and subject themselves to potential punishment (including expulsion)?   Or do they fail to report the assault in act of self-preservation and let a dangerous criminal continue to walk the campus?   

If you want to get serious about preventing sexual assault and punishing the rapists and getting them off campus then you need to guarantee that the rape victims will have some immunity from punishment if they are honest in describing the circumstances of the attack.  Without that there will always be some reluctance for the victims to come forward.   It seems pretty simple to me.   If you can't protect the rape victims from prosecution for relatively minor offenses then the scales are always tipped in the favor of the rapist.   Sounds like a rape culture to me.

[strappinglad]

So there is an Honor Code in every university /college in the country and every girl is afraid of reporting a rape because of it. If anywhere from 60 to 90 percent of ALL rapes go unreported then there must be a society wide Honor Code which kicks in everywhere all the time. That's a stretch!

  One minor detail that enters my mind. What if the accusation of rape was shown to be unfounded and subsequently admitted to by the 'victim' . This happens anywhere from 2 - 45 % of the time, depending on the study. Would the Honor code then be sufficiently violated to trigger a punishment or should the whole thing be swept under the rug to avoid embarrassment to individuals and the institution?

[Russell C McGregor]

3 hours ago, sjdawg said:

I've read the thread.  thanks.  I also read the newspaper article where victims of rape stated they were afraid to report the assaults because of potential punishment for them from the honor code office.   The victims face a very real issue.  Do they report the rape and put a dangerous criminal behind bars and subject themselves to potential punishment (including expulsion)?   Or do they fail to report the assault in act of self-preservation and let a dangerous criminal continue to walk the campus?   

If you want to get serious about preventing sexual assault and punishing the rapists and getting them off campus then you need to guarantee that the rape victims will have some immunity from punishment if they are honest in describing the circumstances of the attack.  Without that there will always be some reluctance for the victims to come forward.   It seems pretty simple to me.   If you can't protect the rape victims from prosecution for relatively minor offenses then the scales are always tipped in the favor of the rapist.   Sounds like a rape culture to me.

Well, you've certainly maxed out on the Kool-aid.

In Puritan New England, anyone who didn't agree that witches must be vigorously hunted was accused of being a witch.That's how mass hysteria works.

In the 1950's, anyone who didn't agree that Communists must be ruthlessly pursued was accused of being a Communist sympathizer.That's how mass hysteria works.

In the 1980's, anyone who didn't agree that there were child molesters behind every bush was accused of being a child molester.That's how mass hysteria works.

Now, anyone who doesn't agree that a claim of rape or sexual assault automatically renders the accuser immune from questioning is accused of being part of a "rape culture." That's how mass hysteria works.

Well, all the non-hysterics in this discussion -- without exception -- are skeptical that such a thing even exists, much less that all standards of behaviour must be thrown out the window in order to fight against it.

Sorry.

 

[sjdawg]

4 hours ago, Russell C McGregor said:

Well, you've certainly maxed out on the Kool-aid.

In Puritan New England, anyone who didn't agree that witches must be vigorously hunted was accused of being a witch.That's how mass hysteria works.

In the 1950's, anyone who didn't agree that Communists must be ruthlessly pursued was accused of being a Communist sympathizer.That's how mass hysteria works.

In the 1980's, anyone who didn't agree that there were child molesters behind every bush was accused of being a child molester.That's how mass hysteria works.

Now, anyone who doesn't agree that a claim of rape or sexual assault automatically renders the accuser immune from questioning is accused of being part of a "rape culture." That's how mass hysteria works.

Well, all the non-hysterics in this discussion -- without exception -- are skeptical that such a thing even exists, much less that all standards of behaviour must be thrown out the window in order to fight against it.

Sorry.

 

I agree 100%.   We should also start punishing children who are molested because they may have been naive enough to accept a candy and a ride from a creepy dude in a panel van.  After all if you are dumb enough to put yourself in a bad position you must accept the consequences.  Not for the abuse of course but only for your own stupidity.   

[Storm Rider]

56 minutes ago, sjdawg said:

I agree 100%.   We should also start punishing children who are molested because they may have been naive enough to accept a candy and a ride from a creepy dude in a panel van.  After all if you are dumb enough to put yourself in a bad position you must accept the consequences.  Not for the abuse of course but only for your own stupidity.   

Well, let me see, a Mormon private university with an Honor Code about not drinking, not taking drugs, and not having sex.  Hmm, little kid eating candy; anything in common?  Nope.  Let's remove that red herring.

Again, how man LDS young adults drink, do drugs, and have sex?  How many of those go to BYU?  Why are they there?  Why should they be allowed to stay?  If there is any chance of a student thinking they cannot do drugs, drink alcohol, or having sex don't go to BYU.  This is not hard; this is not unfair; this is BYU, a Mormon university with an honor code.  

Being raped is has nothing to do with violating the Honor Code.  

[Russell C McGregor]

8 hours ago, sjdawg said:

I agree 100%.   We should also start punishing children who are molested because they may have been naive enough to accept a candy and a ride from a creepy dude in a panel van.  After all if you are dumb enough to put yourself in a bad position you must accept the consequences.  Not for the abuse of course but only for your own stupidity.   

Thank you for vindicating my position.

[CV75]

Some cannot accept that the Honor Code has proven to have an individual and a communal safety application for those who keep it. Not that it will protect all adherents from violence, but there is wisdom as well as integrity in keeping it.

It makes sense that some who found keeping it a hindrance to their freedom will continue to find it a hindrance after their kind of freedom has betrayed them.

Edited April 14, 2016 by CV75

[bsjkki]

I think BYU needs to treat these victims more humanely whether they have broken the honor code or not but since, for so many of you, the honor code seems to be an issue, I am posting these comments from a father whose daughter WAS NOT IN VIOLATION of the honor code and how it effected her.  The tribune story highlights the stories of two victims that were not breaking the honor code and this is the account from Maggie McDonald's father.

AngryDad  a day ago

My daughter is mentioned and pictured in this article and I am very proud of her efforts to help other students that have fallen victim. I have a few thoughts to share:
1. Title 9 has some resources that can help victims, but unfortunately BYU title 9 is run by Sarah Westerberg, who I had the displeasure of speaking with a year ago. She is a thoroughly nasty bureaucrat who can best be described as the embodiment of Dolores Umbridge (from Harry Potter). While my daughter did not violate the honor code, I got the strong impression that she hated my daughter and wanted to see her prosecuted by the honor code office so she could be brought to repentance. I explained that this was an insane position that is not at all helpful, but she was unmovable and doesn't care who she hurt. Fortunately, the honor code office found no fault.
2. Orem does not prosecute sexual crime. I do not know if this is because the detectives are incompetent or if the prosecutors want to maintain their pristine image as "Family City USA". If the guy admits to all details but adds that she wanted it, that pretty much ends the investigation. I don't know if my statistics are correct, but Orem must have one of the lowest percentage of rape prosecutions in the country. I would like to see the tribune investigate this aspect of the story. Don't blame victims for looking for help outside of the police, because often the police will do very little. I have heard better things about the Provo police, however.
3. Sexual assualt has severe long term effects on the victims, and people should do whatever is possible to relieve suffering. My daughter was diagnosed with PTSD, partly due to assault but also largely contributed to by the actions of BYU. Fortunately she has received excellent counseling, but attitudes of her church leaders and some students have been very hurtful. People like to feel safe, and one mechanism is to assume that bad things only happen to people who deserve it. People need to educate themselves on these issues and offer help rather than critisism and judgement. Let mercy and compassion rule the day.
4. Her professors at BYU have been very supportive. Not everybody at BYU is Sarah Westerberg.

 

 

 

 

[bsjkki]

This story on the petition site made me sick.  I left her name off but she was willing to come forward and self identify.

"I am 71 years old, when I was 19 years old I attended BYU. I was raped and you destroyed me. You told me you would be watching to see how the trial went and maybe you would be asking me to leave BYU. How could you treat me that way. You idiots."

[bsjkki]

This story is picking up speed and it is only going to get worse so I hope the PR person for BYU improves their message or maybe they could "apologize."  

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/byu-punish-rape-victims_us_570fd88be4b0ffa5937e8457  and it has made international papers too.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/student-told-she-violated-university-s-honor-code-after-she-reported-her-own-rape-a6983201.html  

 

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/503/967/285/byu-stop-punishing-victims-of-sexual-assault/

 

 

[Russell C McGregor]

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

This story on the petition site made me sick.  I left her name off but she was willing to come forward and self identify.

"I am 71 years old, when I was 19 years old I attended BYU. I was raped and you destroyed me. You told me you would be watching to see how the trial went and maybe you would be asking me to leave BYU. How could you treat me that way. You idiots."

That's called "venting."

As such, it doesn't rise to the level of evidence.

Sorry.

So how did it turn out? Did they ask her to leave BYU?

I wonder why that detail is left out?

 

[Russell C McGregor]

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

I think BYU needs to treat these victims more humanely whether they have broken the honor code or not but since, for so many of you, the honor code seems to be an issue, I am posting these comments from a father whose daughter WAS NOT IN VIOLATION of the honor code and how it effected her.  The tribune story highlights the stories of two victims that were not breaking the honor code and this is the account from Maggie McDonald's father.

AngryDad  a day ago

My daughter is mentioned and pictured in this article and I am very proud of her efforts to help other students that have fallen victim. I have a few thoughts to share:
1. Title 9 has some resources that can help victims, but unfortunately BYU title 9 is run by Sarah Westerberg, who I had the displeasure of speaking with a year ago. She is a thoroughly nasty bureaucrat who can best be described as the embodiment of Dolores Umbridge (from Harry Potter). While my daughter did not violate the honor code, I got the strong impression that she hated my daughter and wanted to see her prosecuted by the honor code office so she could be brought to repentance. I explained that this was an insane position that is not at all helpful, but she was unmovable and doesn't care who she hurt. Fortunately, the honor code office found no fault.

So Ms Westerberg's crime is that an angry father doesn't like her.

That settles it, then. How dare she!

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

2. Orem does not prosecute sexual crime. I do not know if this is because the detectives are incompetent or if the prosecutors want to maintain their pristine image as "Family City USA". If the guy admits to all details but adds that she wanted it, that pretty much ends the investigation. I don't know if my statistics are correct, but Orem must have one of the lowest percentage of rape prosecutions in the country. I would like to see the tribune investigate this aspect of the story. Don't blame victims for looking for help outside of the police, because often the police will do very little. I have heard better things about the Provo police, however.

Can he substantiate this claim, or is it like the mythical one in five?

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

3. Sexual assualt has severe long term effects on the victims, and people should do whatever is possible to relieve suffering. My daughter was diagnosed with PTSD, partly due to assault but also largely contributed to by the actions of BYU. Fortunately she has received excellent counseling, but attitudes of her church leaders and some students have been very hurtful. People like to feel safe, and one mechanism is to assume that bad things only happen to people who deserve it. People need to educate themselves on these issues and offer help rather than critisism and judgement. Let mercy and compassion rule the day.

IOW, all the negatives are non-quanitifiable, such as "attitudes of her church leaders and some students," while everything that can be checked is positive.

I wonder if that tells us anything?

I also wonder when, if ever, he intends to start setting an example of the "mercy and compassion" he demands of others?

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

4. Her professors at BYU have been very supportive. Not everybody at BYU is Sarah Westerberg.

At last he managed to say something positive about BYU.

[Russell C McGregor]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

This story is picking up speed and it is only going to get worse so I hope the PR person for BYU improves their message or maybe they could "apologize."  

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/byu-punish-rape-victims_us_570fd88be4b0ffa5937e8457  and it has made international papers too.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/student-told-she-violated-university-s-honor-code-after-she-reported-her-own-rape-a6983201.html  

 

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/503/967/285/byu-stop-punishing-victims-of-sexual-assault/

So what's important is not whether there's anything substantially wrong with what BYU is doing, but that the perception is there. And, of course, "growing."

Incidentally, "BYU: stop punishing victims of sexual assault" is a loaded demand. There is no evidence that BYU has ever punished anyone for being a victim of sexual assault. And while Ms. Barney is rather too sly to outright claim that they have, that's clearly what she is trying to imply.

And I'll bet that her definition of "sexual assault" is pretty broad, too. It seems to be a characteristic tactic of the "rape culture" warriors to continually equivocate between rape and "sexual assault," which is taken to include a wide range of actions.

 

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, bsjkki said:

I think BYU needs to treat these victims more humanely whether they have broken the honor code or not but since, for so many of you, the honor code seems to be an issue, I am posting these comments from a father whose daughter WAS NOT IN VIOLATION of the honor code and how it effected her.  The tribune story highlights the stories of two victims that were not breaking the honor code and this is the account from Maggie McDonald's father.

AngryDad  a day ago

My daughter is mentioned and pictured in this article and I am very proud of her efforts to help other students that have fallen victim. I have a few thoughts to share:
1. Title 9 has some resources that can help victims, but unfortunately BYU title 9 is run by Sarah Westerberg, who I had the displeasure of speaking with a year ago. She is a thoroughly nasty bureaucrat who can best be described as the embodiment of Dolores Umbridge (from Harry Potter). While my daughter did not violate the honor code, I got the strong impression that she hated my daughter and wanted to see her prosecuted by the honor code office so she could be brought to repentance. I explained that this was an insane position that is not at all helpful, but she was unmovable and doesn't care who she hurt. Fortunately, the honor code office found no fault.
2. Orem does not prosecute sexual crime. I do not know if this is because the detectives are incompetent or if the prosecutors want to maintain their pristine image as "Family City USA". If the guy admits to all details but adds that she wanted it, that pretty much ends the investigation. I don't know if my statistics are correct, but Orem must have one of the lowest percentage of rape prosecutions in the country. I would like to see the tribune investigate this aspect of the story. Don't blame victims for looking for help outside of the police, because often the police will do very little. I have heard better things about the Provo police, however.
3. Sexual assualt has severe long term effects on the victims, and people should do whatever is possible to relieve suffering. My daughter was diagnosed with PTSD, partly due to assault but also largely contributed to by the actions of BYU. Fortunately she has received excellent counseling, but attitudes of her church leaders and some students have been very hurtful. People like to feel safe, and one mechanism is to assume that bad things only happen to people who deserve it. People need to educate themselves on these issues and offer help rather than critisism and judgement. Let mercy and compassion rule the day.
4. Her professors at BYU have been very supportive. Not everybody at BYU is Sarah Westerberg.

 

 

 

 

Yep. Sarah Westerberg is a veritable Dolores Umbridge. Nurse Rached, Lizzie Borden, Irma Grese, Annie Wilkes, Cruella DeVille, and Cinderella's step-mother all rolled into one.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/uayq9ZaKsI0

I would say AngryDad's slander of her is somewhat uncharitable and perhaps a bit undeserved. Would you say Sarah has been treated humanely?