Was Mary the Incarnation of Heavenly Mother?

[Guest]

On February 8, 2016 at 2:00 PM, mfbukowski said:

There were a couple of fascinating talks in last years Fairmormon Conference which implied this.

I just wanted to suggest the topic and put the idea out there.  I had never thought about it before that conference, and now I find the idea drawing me in more and more. I will let you look up the articles because I want people to read the articles more.  No hints.

To me, it makes perfect sense.  The Godhead is a family.  Some say the Holy Ghost is a feminine personage- the official church position is of course that He is male.

I think we need more revelation on these issues.

I would like the thread to be scholarly and respectful to Heavenly Mother and the human person, the mother of Jesus, Mary.

If the thread gets funky about the conception of Jesus, I will shut it down in a heartbeat.  All are welcome, but we need to have a respectful tone.  And I really do not want this to become an EV vs LDS thread about Biblical interpretations.

The BoM teaches that Mary is the Mother of God (Christ) "after the. Air of the flesh". This scripture makes a clear distinction that one is his mother after the manor of the Spirit and the other "after the manor of the flesh". So my guess is no. 

[BlueDreams]

To the main OP, Like many on this thread, I don't think Mary was an incarnation of HM. I think she was a representation and Mother-figure, in the same way several prophets could be considered a christ-figure. Personally I like Hudson's idea of the Two Trees, not that everything about it as a theory is perfect, but the things that I've read, felt, and studied recently leads me to the idea that there is a particular resonance for all women and our Eternal Mother. For example wisdom when read as mother has a number of temple imagery tie-ins throughout it as well....in said reading you see her as co-creator with the Father in creation and our experiences here. One verse states wisdom is better than rubies (proverbs 8..).  Which parallels the verse of a virtuous woman being more precious than rubies (prov 31). In that chapter the woman imaged in it also tied in to temple acts and other mother images in scriptures (such as being clothed and girding loins, etc). She's also active in preparatory and strengthening actions for her peoples. Etc. 

So Eve would be a mother-figure. As would Mary. As would Deborah. As should we all be. 

I also yearn for more info. I get the sense that there should be more and there a more proactive role alluded to in some scriptures that is missing currently.

 

Personally i don't think HM is the HS. I think the HS is a conduit for all the Godhead (Father including Mother) to speak with us. Without going into detail of sacred experiences, I've had several experiences where I have felt Her presence both in ordinances and prayer (not directly praying to Her...though I wonder/hope if that may change one day) and other experiences. The more I do, the more I believe she is not separate from this life and our experiences than what some theories may attest we've just lost much of her knowledge of Her and thus access to Her.

 

With luv,

BD   

 

[Jeanne]

2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Thank you. It will be exciting to learn more, won't it?!

Yes..for me, the Heavenly Mother is the link that is missing  in our greater understanding of many things.  I do wish though that a separate reverence would be possible.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Jeanne

[consiglieri]

15 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I actually think Heavenly Mother is a member of the God head. To me, HF is synonymous with the couple, Father and Mother in Heaven, especially in this case. This makes the most sense about what we already know to be revealed, imo.

God is a member of the Godhead.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And so is her husband.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

 

Personally i don't think HM is the HS. I think the HS is a conduit for all the Godhead (Father including Mother) to speak with us. Without going into detail of sacred experiences, I've had several experiences where I have felt Her presence both in ordinances and prayer (not directly praying to Her...though I wonder/hope if that may change one day) and other experiences. The more I do, the more I believe she is not separate from this life and our experiences than what some theories may attest we've just lost much of her knowledge of Her and thus access to Her.

 

With luv,

BD   

 

I felt quite a bit of resonance in the idea - though you did not say exactly this- that Wisdom "is not separate from this life and our experiences" and that suddenly just made sense on its face.  Click.

As a social constructivist I think that we create our world as we know it through language, which parallels the terminology that "everything was created through the Word"

Words are not experiences- words are squiggles on a page and words deal with what we call "logic".  Experiences, in my view, on the other hand are direct apprehensions of the world "as it is" BEFORE we arrange the experience into a neat little package in a sentence.   Wisdom is also "insight" into the nature of that pre-linguistic experience, that makes us want to make it into meaning.

We have an experience and interpret it through wisdom by picking the right words to make it intelligible to someone else.   You see someone, and they just don't "look right"- there is something in the experience which wisdom is trying to tell you. Something is off, but you are not sure what.  Then you grasp it- "There was this guy who was doing such and so- and it looked "suspicious" because...."

Wisdom "is not separate from this life" precisely because of what you insightfully use as your siggy: We do not see things as they are, we see them as we are.

The way we interpret our experience is what makes us what we are and we build our world out of those interpretations we have made through wisdom.

I like that a lot!!

How do you see this as a "feminine" influence/entity/way of seeing?

[mfbukowski]

We don't need that.

Edited February 10, 2016 by mfbukowski

[BlueDreams]

17 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I felt quite a bit of resonance in the idea - though you did not say exactly this- that Wisdom "is not separate from this life and our experiences" and that suddenly just made sense on its face.  Click.

As a social constructivist I think that we create our world as we know it through language, which parallels the terminology that "everything was created through the Word"

Words are not experiences- words are squiggles on a page and words deal with what we call "logic".  Experiences, in my view, on the other hand are direct apprehensions of the world "as it is" BEFORE we arrange the experience into a neat little package in a sentence.   Wisdom is also "insight" into the nature of that pre-linguistic experience, that makes us want to make it into meaning.

We have an experience and interpret it through wisdom by picking the right words to make it intelligible to someone else.   You see someone, and they just don't "look right"- there is something in the experience which wisdom is trying to tell you. Something is off, but you are not sure what.  Then you grasp it- "There was this guy who was doing such and so- and it looked "suspicious" because...."

Wisdom "is not separate from this life" precisely because of what you insightfully use as your siggy: We do not see things as they are, we see them as we are.

The way we interpret our experience is what makes us what we are and we build our world out of those interpretations we have made through wisdom.

I like that a lot!!

How do you see this as a "feminine" influence/entity/way of seeing?

I may not have said it, but I do like the idea quite a bit.

I think wisdom infers a sense of meaningful action and knowledge. Knowledge, to me is useless without a sense of meaning, purpose, or direction. I think we naturally feel that need for meaning in life even.

 Personally I think I experience that feminine influence/entity/way as a rooting and a power. She both stabilitizes and opens access to God and life. It also ties to me to the imagery of a tree, bearing the fruit of the tree of life. But honestly, I'm still learning on the experiential sense.

 

With luv,

BD

[juliann]

21 hours ago, consiglieri said:

God is a member of the Godh

And so is her husband.

Good one

[halconero]

On February 9, 2016 at 0:54 PM, BlueDreams said:

To the main OP, Like many on this thread, I don't think Mary was an incarnation of HM. I think she was a representation and Mother-figure, in the same way several prophets could be considered a christ-figure. Personally I like Hudson's idea of the Two Trees, not that everything about it as a theory is perfect, but the things that I've read, felt, and studied recently leads me to the idea that there is a particular resonance for all women and our Eternal Mother. For example wisdom when read as mother has a number of temple imagery tie-ins throughout it as well....in said reading you see her as co-creator with the Father in creation and our experiences here. One verse states wisdom is better than rubies (proverbs 8..).  Which parallels the verse of a virtuous woman being more precious than rubies (prov 31). In that chapter the woman imaged in it also tied in to temple acts and other mother images in scriptures (such as being clothed and girding loins, etc). She's also active in preparatory and strengthening actions for her peoples. Etc. 

So Eve would be a mother-figure. As would Mary. As would Deborah. As should we all be. 

I also yearn for more info. I get the sense that there should be more and there a more proactive role alluded to in some scriptures that is missing currently.

 

Personally i don't think HM is the HS. I think the HS is a conduit for all the Godhead (Father including Mother) to speak with us. Without going into detail of sacred experiences, I've had several experiences where I have felt Her presence both in ordinances and prayer (not directly praying to Her...though I wonder/hope if that may change one day) and other experiences. The more I do, the more I believe she is not separate from this life and our experiences than what some theories may attest we've just lost much of her knowledge of Her and thus access to Her.

 

With luv,

BD   

 

This definitely resonates.

I've come to understand the Holy Ghost via a study of the priesthood and proxy work as both a conduit and male for a variety of reasons. With regards to him being a conduit, I've come to love studying the patterns of sacrifice outlined by Moses in the Torah (I'm doing an Old Testament read through right now). Something which I didn't comprehend before is that it was the petitioner, not the priest, who undertook the act of sacrifice. They would bring their offering, lay their hands on it to impute any sin or mistake, and then kill the sacrifice. The priest would then "make an atonement" for the petitioner by taking the blood of the sacrifice and applying it to both altar and petitioner. The petitioner is still the one who offers it up, who lays it on the altar, and it is the blood of the sacrifice which cleanses. The priest's job was to act as an applying agent of the sacrifice. Christ atones, but the Spirit applies and confirms. We sacrifice the broken hear and the contrite spirit by imputing it on Christ.

With regards to the sex of the Holy Ghost. I've come to understand the priesthood as the ability to act as a proxy for deity. As with other proxy work there is care taken to match the sex of the individual act as proxy with the person who they are representing. That we act as proxies is evident in that the only ordinances which absolutely require more than one priesthood holder are also those which require the invocation of the titular names of the Godhead. Others done in the name of the Saviour only require the presence of one priesthood holder despite the ability of more to participate.

For myself, this makes the work women do in the temple that much more significant, and the areas which I am not permitted to enter or the ordinances I'm permitted to view or know that much more sacred.

[Guest]

23 hours ago, consiglieri said:

God is a member of the Godhead.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And so is her husband.

First line is a certain...the second (even if joking) could be a valid idea. The Holy Spirit, is that part of the Godhead that. Reminds us, invites us, inspires us all through feelings, via "gentleness, kindness and love unfeigned". All of the qualities and attributes that reminds me of my mother, and all good mothers. 

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

I may not have said it, but I do like the idea quite a bit.

I think wisdom infers a sense of meaningful action and knowledge. Knowledge, to me is useless without a sense of meaning, purpose, or direction. I think we naturally feel that need for meaning in life even.

 Personally I think I experience that feminine influence/entity/way as a rooting and a power. She both stabilitizes and opens access to God and life. It also ties to me to the imagery of a tree, bearing the fruit of the tree of life. But honestly, I'm still learning on the experiential sense.

 

With luv,

BD

And then there is the other usage of the word "experience" meaning know-how, or knowing that one has a certain ability.  Us old guys like to call ourselves "experienced"

So one filters or interprets perceived events- "experiences" through the wisdom of "experience" in the other sense.  The more experience one has with that particular experience, the more wisdom will be shown in the interpretation.

That's why grandmothers are so good at child rearing, imo.  Been there, done that, been through everything that can be thrown at them many times.  My wife is absolutely brilliant but here favorite calling was nursery, and she was there for 8 years after being in Stake Relief society, Stake YW, Family History, Gospel Doctrine teacher etc.  Why? because she loved the babies, and actually had them sit and have a lesson and learn about Jesus.  She still has kids coming up to her years later who remember her.  Women form our first experiences- our early "wisdoms" which we carry through life.

I have a much better grasp now of why women are associated with trees- the rooted solid civilizing influence and givers of life.  Mother earth bearing fruit.  I kind of knew that intellectually but not on a gut level.

My wife is convinced that I am only half civilized and she is right.  But slowly and surely she is getting me into shape, knocking off those edges with patience and love.

My great grandmother was born in 1864 and lived until 1958.  She came from Poland with all that would fit in one trunk.  They bought a farm in western NY actually near Palmyra though of course they knew nothing about the church and would never have joined anyway. I remember her a little- I was pretty small.  She would go into the woods and pick mushrooms and herbs. She knew remedies for everything.  Pretty much all I remember about her is that she loved me.  And of course she was the center of the family, solid and rooted, and the giver of life.

 

[Calm]

Quote

That's why grandmothers are so good at child rearing, imo.

I don't know about this, but I won't go into detail on why I have my doubts.

[Meadowchik]

On Tuesday, February 09, 2016 at 7:35 PM, JLHPROF said:

Do I believe Heavenly Mother(s) is God?  Yes
Do I believe Heavenly Mother(s) has responsibilities and authority?  Yes
Do I believe Heavenly Mother(s) has priesthood like Heavenly Father?  Yes
Do I believe they are perfectly united?  Yes
Do they both have responsibility for their spirit children and work towards the same goal of immortality and exaltation?  Yes
Do they share the spiritual load?  Probably, depending on how that's defined.

Does that make all scripture and prophetic teachings referencing Heavenly Father also inclusive of Heavenly Mother?  No, I don't believe it does.

Well, that's  much like any teaching referencing "God." It may or may not be referring to the Father, the Son, or the Holy Ghost.

One could say that HM is often implied when speaking of the Father.

[Meadowchik]

6 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

And then there is the other usage of the word "experience" meaning know-how, or knowing that one has a certain ability.  Us old guys like to call ourselves "experienced"

So one filters or interprets perceived events- "experiences" through the wisdom of "experience" in the other sense.  The more experience one has with that particular experience, the more wisdom will be shown in the interpretation.

That's why grandmothers are so good at child rearing, imo.  Been there, done that, been through everything that can be thrown at them many times.  My wife is absolutely brilliant but here favorite calling was nursery, and she was there for 8 years after being in Stake Relief society, Stake YW, Family History, Gospel Doctrine teacher etc.  Why? because she loved the babies, and actually had them sit and have a lesson and learn about Jesus.  She still has kids coming up to her years later who remember her.  Women form our first experiences- our early "wisdoms" which we carry through life.

I have a much better grasp now of why women are associated with trees- the rooted solid civilizing influence and givers of life.  Mother earth bearing fruit.  I kind of knew that intellectually but not on a gut level.

My wife is convinced that I am only half civilized and she is right.  But slowly and surely she is getting me into shape, knocking off those edges with patience and love.

My great grandmother was born in 1864 and lived until 1958.  She came from Poland with all that would fit in one trunk.  They bought a farm in western NY actually near Palmyra though of course they knew nothing about the church and would never have joined anyway. I remember her a little- I was pretty small.  She would go into the woods and pick mushrooms and herbs. She knew remedies for everything.  Pretty much all I remember about her is that she loved me.  And of course she was the center of the family, solid and rooted, and the giver of life.

 

This reminds me of imagery which came into my mind with my oldest daughter's menarche. Beforehand, because puberty has already begun as the rather gradual process it is, I expected to merely be teachinh the new hygiene to her. But I was surprised that for days I was filled with a glowing, pure joy. Such a deep personal reaction on my part caught me off guard, but pleasantly so, because it was as if in this occurance I could see the long, unbroken chain of women connecting absolutely all humanity throughout time, in their common experience of giving blood.

[JLHPROF]

8 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Well, that's  much like any teaching referencing "God." It may or may not be referring to the Father, the Son, or the Holy Ghost.

One could say that HM is often implied when speaking of the Father.

Except I don't think that she is, except in certain cases.

[Jeanne]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

I don't know about this, but I won't go into detail on why I have my doubts.

I remember smiling at my mother and my children at the same time..saying "this is not the woman I grew up with"!  Of course, this was after my kids..very little at the time, colored pretty pictures on Mom's white walls!  "Cute little pictures.." she says.

[SamIam]

On 2/9/2016 at 7:31 AM, JLHPROF said:

Thank you for posting these.  In the absence of more direct revelation I choose to believe these inspired prophetic teachings until God reveals otherwise.  Plus they just make sense to my mind and spirit.

You are quite welcome.  I agree, they make perfect sense to me as well. 

[mrmarklin]

On February 8, 2016 at 1:16 PM, JAHS said:

"Was Mary the Incarnation of Heavenly Mother?"

No. No obvious scriptural or prophetic support for this. Only some vague ides of what early Christians thought of her.

Our Heavenly Mother already had a body of flesh and bone the same as Heavenly Father. 

 

This.

[Damien the Leper]

On 2/8/2016 at 0:10 PM, JLHPROF said:

Dingdingding...we have a winner.

No. Eve is bound to Adam. Adam is in no way, shape or for El. No advocating for some divinely mandated adultery.  

[JLHPROF]

34 minutes ago, Valentinus said:

No. Eve is bound to Adam. Adam is in no way, shape or for El. No advocating for some divinely mandated adultery.  

You are entitled to that opinion, as are most members of the Church.
I disagree.

[Damien the Leper]

On 2/8/2016 at 0:10 PM, JLHPROF said:

 

So you're okay with some disastrous heavenly adultery?

If you want to talk about God's wife, then you should start with Chokmah, Asherah or Shekinah.

[JLHPROF]

9 minutes ago, Valentinus said:

So you're okay with some disastrous heavenly adultery?

If you want to talk about God's wife, then you should start with Chokmah, Asherah or Shekinah.

What adultery?

[mfbukowski]

OK this is going exactly where I did not want it to go- I am shutting it down asap

 

PLEASE no more posts