Was Mary the Incarnation of Heavenly Mother?

[SamIam]

8 hours ago, Matthew J. Tandy said:

Perhaps she was or is now a wife of God. Sealed to him as part of her faithfulness. There is nothing currently that would make this doctrinal though.

As JAHS mentioned, our heavenly mother (whether one or multiple) would have already been exalted before Adam and Eve.

 

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The man Joseph, the husband of Mary, did not, that we know of, have more than one wife, but Mary the wife of Joseph had another husband. On this account infidels have called the Savior a *******. This is merely a human opinion upon one of the inscrutable doings of the Almighty. That very babe that was cradled in the manger, was begotten, not by Joseph, the husband of Mary, but by another Being. Do you inquire by whom? He was begotten by God our heavenly Father. This answer may suffice you—you need never inquire more upon that point.” (Young, Brigham, Journal of Discourses 11:268)

 

 

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God, the Father of our spirits, became the father of our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. Hence, the Father saith concerning him ‘Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.’ We are informed in the first chapter of Luke, that Mary was chosen by the Father as a choice virgin, through whom he begat Jesus. The angel said unto the Virgin Mary, ‘The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore, also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.’ After the power of the Highest had overshadowed Mary, and she had by that means conceived, she related the circumstance to her cousin Elizabeth in the following words: ‘He that is Mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is His name.’ It seems from this revelation that the Holy Ghost accompanied ‘the highest’ when he overshadowed the Virgin Mary and begat Jesus; and from this circumstance some have supposed that the body of Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost without the instrumentality of the immediate presence of the Father. There is no doubt that the Holy Ghost came upon Mary to sanctify her, and make her holy, and prepare her to endure the glorious presence of ‘the Highest,’ that when ‘He’ should overshadow her she might conceive, being filled with the Holy Ghost; hence the angel said, as recorded in Matthew, ‘That which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost;’ that is, the Holy Ghost gave her strength to abide the presence of the father without being consumed; but it was the personage of the father who begat the body of Jesus; and for this reason Jesus is called ‘the Only begotten of the Father;’ that is, the only one in this world whose fleshly body was begotten by the Father. There were millions of sons and daughters whom He begat before the foundation of this world, but they were spirits, and not bodies of flesh and bones; whereas, both the spirit and body of Jesus were begotten by the Father- the spirit having been begotten in heaven many ages before the tabernacle was begotten upon the earth.

 

The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a father. Therefore, the father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been associated together in capacity of Husband and Wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have been, for the time being, the LAWFUL WIFE OF GOD THE FATHER : we use the term LAWFUL wife, because it would be blasphemous in the highest degree to say that He overshadowed her or begat the saviour unlawfully. It would have been unlawful for any man to have interfered with Mary, who was already espoused to Joseph ; for such a heinious crime would have subjected both the guilty parties to death, according to the law of Moses. But God having had the most perfect right to do with His own creation, according to His holy will and PLEASURE He had a lawful right to overshadow the virgin Mary in the capacity of a HUSBAND, and beget a Son, although she was espoused to another; for the law which He gave to govern men and women was not intended to govern Himself, or to prescribe rules for his own conduct. It was also lawful in Him, after having thus dealt with Mary, to give her to Joseph her espoused husband. Whether God the Father gave Mary to Joseph for time only, or for time and eternity, we are not informed. In as much as god was the First HUSBAND to HER, it may be that he only gave her to be the wife of Joseph while in this mortal state, and that He intended after the resurrection to again take her as one of his own wives to raise up immortal spirits in eternity.(The Seer – Orson Pratt)

 

 

 

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Now, my little friends, I will repeat again in words as simple as I can, and you talk to your parents about it, that God, the Eternal Father is literally the father of Jesus Christ.

Mary was married to Joseph for time. No man could take her for eternity because she belonged to the Father of her divine Son. In the revelation that has come thru Joseph Smith, we learn that it is the eternal purpose of God that man and woman should be joined together by the power of God here on earth for time and eternity.”

Men who deny this, or who think that it degrades our Father, have no true conception of the sacredness of the most marvelous power with which God has endowed mortal men—the power of creation. Even though that power may be abused and may become a mere harp of pleasure to the wicked, nevertheless it is the most sacred and holy and divine function with which God has endowed man. Made holy, it is retained by the Father of us all, and in his exercise of that great and marvelous creative power and function, he did not debase himself, degrade himself, nor debauch his daughter. Thus Christ became the literal Son of a divine Father, and no one else was worthy to be his father.” ((Hoyt W. Brewster, Jr., Doctrine and Covenants Encyclopedia, p. 398; cf. Messages of the First Presidency 4:330, Deseret News, 23 Dec 1923; Sermons and Missionary Services of Melvin J. Ballard, 166-167; Crusader for Righteousness, 144; taught to students by BYU-Idaho professor Robert L. Marriott, Joseph Fielding Smith)

 

To some not doctrinal but not without prophetic commentary nonetheless.

 

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

My point was that the unquestioned culturally-inherited assumption that the Holy Spirit of (Lady) Wisdom is male is contradicted by the historical evidence.  

It's hard to judge how important historical evidence should be for this.  I don't usually see that as relevant for spiritual views.

I think the best view would be coherent with the overall LDS position, even if not well defined.  I really do believe Joseph was a prophet.

[mfbukowski]

9 hours ago, volgadon said:

I wouldn't see Mary as the incarnation of Heavenly Mother as much as an earthly symbol or representation of her.

OK, but surely she was predestined for this role.  The physical mother of Christ?  The one selected to teach him as only mothers can?

It seems that we should have a better defined position for that role?

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, halconero said:

I believe that the Holy Ghost is male. That Asherah is anticipatory of Mary, and in a separate Heavenly Mother(s).

That works, I just wish we "knew" more.  

And clearly that is the prevailing view hereabouts so far.

[mfbukowski]

29 minutes ago, SamIam said:

 

To some not doctrinal but not without prophetic commentary nonetheless.

 

Yeah, I never liked that one much.  I was trying to avoid that direction.  But thanks.  I wish they would have been more delicate, and will leave it at that.

I think the New Testament account works just as well without getting too muddy.

Edited February 9, 2016 by mfbukowski

[The Nehor]

No.

[Meadowchik]

13 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I think reading the teachings of Joseph Smith on the Holy Ghost precludes Mary or Heavenly Mother being the third member of the Godhead.
(Of course, I've always liked the disavowed theory that it's Joseph Smith so who am I to say...)

I actually think Heavenly Mother is a member of the God head. To me, HF is synonymous with the couple, Father and Mother in Heaven, especially in this case. This makes the most sense about what we already know to be revealed, imo.

[Meadowchik]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

That works, I just wish we "knew" more.  

And clearly that is the prevailing view hereabouts so far.

Maybe once we're more ready, not just as a religion, but generally speaking as humans, since the whole world is frequently the intended audience of prophetic revelation,  especially the more fundamental matters.

[JLHPROF]

5 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I actually think Heavenly Mother is a member of the God head. To me, HF is synonymous with the couple, Father and Mother in Heaven, especially in this case. This makes the most sense about what we already know to be revealed, imo.

I don't I'm afraid.  Given what is known of the Godhead I fully accept that the Father is perfectly united with his wives but find no evidence they serve in the Presidency with him, any more than the Bishop's wife in on the Bishopric or an Apostle's wife is part of the Quorum of the Twelve.

 The Godhead is described as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.  Christ himself taught us to pray to the Father.  Joseph Smith taught of three personages only in the Godhead (creator, redeemer, and witness/testator).

[JLHPROF]

8 hours ago, SamIam said:

To some not doctrinal but not without prophetic commentary nonetheless.

 

Thank you for posting these.  In the absence of more direct revelation I choose to believe these inspired prophetic teachings until God reveals otherwise.  Plus they just make sense to my mind and spirit.

[Meadowchik]

21 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I don't I'm afraid.  Given what is known of the Godhead I fully accept that the Father is perfectly united with his wives but find no evidence they serve in the Presidency with him, any more than the Bishop's wife in on the Bishopric or an Apostle's wife is part of the Quorum of the Twelve.

 The Godhead is described as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.  Christ himself taught us to pray to the Father.  Joseph Smith taught of three personages only in the Godhead (creator, redeemer, and witness/testator).

I can respect that point of view.

But for me, the math doesn't work just like with the Q12. I have a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. Consider what makes Christ the Savior and what makes the Father, God the Father. She is one with Him in a divine partnership. She is also the Mother of our spirits. 

Why is God, God?

[BlueDreams]

57 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I can respect that point of view.

But for me, the math doesn't work just like with the Q12. I have a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. Consider what makes Christ the Savior and what makes the Father, God the Father. She is one with Him in a divine partnership. She is also the Mother of our spirits. 

Why is God, God?

I agree. I think it's difficult to assume the current church order is absolutely equivalent to the order of heaven. I believe it was oaks that made a distinction between the church order, which is hierarchical, and the family order which was patriarchal and entails equal united partners. Personally I think it's basically impossible to separate Heavenly Mother's actions from Heavenly Father's. 

 

With luv,

BD

[Calm]

When the Church first started out it didn't have the first presidency makup it does today.  Don't remember if it ever had during JS's lifetime.  I don't see any reason why such a structure needs to be eternal.  Makes more sense in fact if it isn't and we stop forcing everything into 3s and 12s or pretending things are that way when the details are not quite so tidy.

There is great symbolism in those numbers, but I am not sure we will need the same symbolism in the next life.

[Meadowchik]

21 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

I agree. I think it's difficult to assume the current church order is absolutely equivalent to the order of heaven. I believe it was oaks that made a distinction between the church order, which is hierarchical, and the family order which was patriarchal and entails equal united partners. Personally I think it's basically impossible to separate Heavenly Mother's actions from Heavenly Father's. 

 

With luv,

BD

Yup. And imagine it is just so, as you say. From our earthly perspective, what we explicitly say the most may be all we're (collectively) yet ready for. In my opinion, though, it's implied.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I can respect that point of view.

But for me, the math doesn't work just like with the Q12. I have a Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. Consider what makes Christ the Savior and what makes the Father, God the Father. She is one with Him in a divine partnership. She is also the Mother of our spirits. 

Why is God, God?

Totally agree.

We are to be one flesh, a unit.

[longview]

This would NOT work.  If Heavenly Mother is a resurrected being, then She obviously could not be incarnated in Mary.  Book of Mormon has verses that make this clear.   I consider this thread to be an abomination.

[Jeanne]

8 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I actually think Heavenly Mother is a member of the God head. To me, HF is synonymous with the couple, Father and Mother in Heaven, especially in this case. This makes the most sense about what we already know to be revealed, imo.

So..do you think our prayers are reaching her also?  I am ex-mormon..but I hold fast to an idea of a Heavenly Mother.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I don't I'm afraid.  Given what is known of the Godhead I fully accept that the Father is perfectly united with his wives but find no evidence they serve in the Presidency with him, any more than the Bishop's wife in on the Bishopric or an Apostle's wife is part of the Quorum of the Twelve.

 The Godhead is described as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.  Christ himself taught us to pray to the Father.  Joseph Smith taught of three personages only in the Godhead (creator, redeemer, and witness/testator).

Imo they are.   They share in the same priesthood.  Yes, one administers but they both share in the spiritual load.  When you are called to a leadership position they call in the husband and wife together and extend the call in the presence of both, because they know they will bear the burdens placed on their shoulders together.

One does not spend 12 hours "at work" on sundays and tuesdays and overnight campouts without impacting the other. Both are serving the Lord

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

When the Church first started out it didn't have the first presidency makup it does today.  Don't remember if it ever had during JS's lifetime.  I don't see any reason why such a structure needs to be eternal.  Makes more sense in fact if it isn't and we stop forcing everything into 3s and 12s or pretending things are that way when the details are not quite so tidy.

There is great symbolism in those numbers, but I am not sure we will need the same symbolism in the next life.

The church really functions as a "hospital" for those in need spiritually as well as temporally, and a way for us to form a Ward "family" to fellowship together.

When we no longer need the hospital and we all ARE part of the same family, it is hard to imagine how or if it will be necessary.  We will be part of the Church of the Firstborn and concerned with bringing to pass the immortality and eternal lives of our children, if we make it that far.

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Imo they are.   They share in the same priesthood.  Yes, one administers but they both share in the spiritual load.  When you are called to a leadership position they call in the husband and wife together and extend the call in the presence of both, because they know they will bear the burdens placed on their shoulders together.

One does not spend 12 hours "at work" on sundays and tuesdays and overnight campouts without impacting the other. Both are serving the Lord

Do I believe Heavenly Mother(s) is God?  Yes
Do I believe Heavenly Mother(s) has responsibilities and authority?  Yes
Do I believe Heavenly Mother(s) has priesthood like Heavenly Father?  Yes
Do I believe they are perfectly united?  Yes
Do they both have responsibility for their spirit children and work towards the same goal of immortality and exaltation?  Yes
Do they share the spiritual load?  Probably, depending on how that's defined.

Does that make all scripture and prophetic teachings referencing Heavenly Father also inclusive of Heavenly Mother?  No, I don't believe it does.

[Meadowchik]

35 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

So..do you think our prayers are reaching her also?  I am ex-mormon..but I hold fast to an idea of a Heavenly Mother.

In my opinion, yes. However, it makes sense to me to not pray to her singly. I very easily consider the address of Father to be applicable to both Parents. They are one and perfect as our Father and Mother in Heaven, and respecting them means respecting their relationship as one.

While those are my thoughts on Her, pecifically, my testimony stands the most on the character of God, though, rather than every detailed characteristic. For some reason, God's goodness and relationship to me and all of us is enough for me to chew on, for the most part.  (I readily admit this "being enough" could be due to spiritual immaturity on my part!)

 

 

[mfbukowski]

59 minutes ago, longview said:

This would NOT work.  If Heavenly Mother is a resurrected being, then She obviously could not be incarnated in Mary.  Book of Mormon has verses that make this clear.   I consider this thread to be an abomination.

Lol well ok

I already acknowledged that point.  I don't think asking a question is ever an "abomination"- it is the way we learn.  I was just reading some articles and thought they were interesting and didn't think it through, and thought I would ask a question.  

[mfbukowski]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Do I believe Heavenly Mother(s) is God?  Yes
Do I believe Heavenly Mother(s) has responsibilities and authority?  Yes
Do I believe Heavenly Mother(s) has priesthood like Heavenly Father?  Yes
Do I believe they are perfectly united?  Yes
Do they both have responsibility for their spirit children and work towards the same goal of immortality and exaltation?  Yes
Do they share the spiritual load?  Probably, depending on how that's defined.

Does that make all scripture and prophetic teachings referencing Heavenly Father also inclusive of Heavenly Mother?  No, I don't believe it does.

I don't recall anybody asserting that.

Pesky words again.

[Jeanne]

2 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

In my opinion, yes. However, it makes sense to me to not pray to her singly. I very easily consider the address of Father to be applicable to both Parents. They are one and perfect as our Father and Mother in Heaven, and respecting them means respecting their relationship as one.

While those are my thoughts on Her, pecifically, my testimony stands the most on the character of God, though, rather than every detailed characteristic. For some reason, God's goodness and relationship to me and all of us is enough for me to chew on, for the most part.  (I readily admit this "being enough" could be due to spiritual immaturity on my part!)

 

 

Thank you for your comments.  I have never looked at it this way before. 

[Meadowchik]

1 minute ago, Jeanne said:

Thank you for your comments.  I have never looked at it this way before. 

Thank you. It will be exciting to learn more, won't it?!