Same Sex Marriage Vs. Convenience Abortion - A Question Of Priority And Societal Harm

[Five Solas]

The LDS Church has been loud in its opposition to legalized same sex marriage - perhaps most famously (infamously?) in its support for "Proposition 8" in California a few years back.  They've had company, of course.  Plenty of Evangelicals, Catholics, and other Christians have endeavored to hold the line for "traditional marriage." 

 

But while LDS have been loud & clear on the same sex marriage issue--they're relatively-speaking quiet on the question of legalized abortion where the mother's health is not in question (what I'm calling for purposes of this thread, "convenience abortion").  This is not to say LDS are in favor of abortion (they aren't)--but they clearly haven't shown the same political interest/energy in the matter of legalized convenience abortion.  And certainly not in comparison to Evangelicals and Catholics. 

 

Why is that? 

 

--Erik 

 

[Guest]

The LDS Church has been loud in its opposition to legalized same sex marriage - perhaps most famously (infamously?) in its support for "Proposition 8" in California a few years back.  They've had company, of course.  Plenty of Evangelicals, Catholics, and other Christians have endeavored to hold the line for "traditional marriage." 

 

But while LDS have been loud & clear on the same sex marriage issue--they're relatively-speaking quiet on the question of legalized abortion where the mother's health is not in question (what I'm calling for purposes of this thread, "convenience abortion").  This is not to say LDS are in favor of abortion (they aren't)--but they clearly haven't shown the same political interest/energy in the matter of legalized convenience abortion.  And certainly not in comparison to Evangelicals and Catholics. 

 

Why is that? 

 

--Erik

Abortion has always been a grevious in Church Courts, very treating ash being dealt with always *** as sa suvch, where SSM (new) in our realing you comparing Apples and organons

[strappinglad]

Abortion is accompanied with all kinds of nuance . Reasons for abortion run the gamut from convenience to rape. The timing of abortion from a morning after pill to partial birth adds another wrinkle. The emotional aspect also adds layers. It is a mine field filled with hair trigger fuses. The Church is very clear to its members about their responsibility with respect to abortion. It is true that it has been much less forceful to the world at large.

Pa pa could you translate?

Edited September 27, 2015 by strappinglad

[Storm Rider]

I believe that the taking of innocent life is a grievous sin, but I am not comfortable attempting to quantify which sins are more heinous than others.  I don't have a problem with major, broad-brush labeling such as murder, but I prefer not to go further than that.

 

I prefer to focus on the pursuit of holiness; living in a righteous manner that is in accordance with the bounds of how a disciple of Christ should live.  All sin is evil in the sight of God.  Attempting to quantify sins may lead to judging others unfairly while excusing our own shortcomings.  

 

The two sins you mention are both abhorrent in the eyes of God just as all of my personal sins are viewed in a similar manner.  Does this make sense Five?

Edited September 27, 2015 by Storm Rider

[ksfisher]

How about an option for thinking they have the same seriousness?

[JAHS]

Both abortion and SSM are considered sins. Abortion is the more grevious sin because it involves the killing of a human being or at least a potential human being denying the entrance of one of God's children into mortaltiy.

Most people who are gay will remain so and will probably never marry the oposite sex. So they either stay single or marry someone of the same sex.  This does not involve the death of anyone. I personally don't care much if they marry or not. It does however represent the continued degradation of the morals of our society.

Edited September 27, 2015 by JAHS

[The Nehor]

The LDS Church has been loud in its opposition to legalized same sex marriage - perhaps most famously (infamously?) in its support for "Proposition 8" in California a few years back.  They've had company, of course.  Plenty of Evangelicals, Catholics, and other Christians have endeavored to hold the line for "traditional marriage." 

 

But while LDS have been loud & clear on the same sex marriage issue--they're relatively-speaking quiet on the question of legalized abortion where the mother's health is not in question (what I'm calling for purposes of this thread, "convenience abortion").  This is not to say LDS are in favor of abortion (they aren't)--but they clearly haven't shown the same political interest/energy in the matter of legalized convenience abortion.  And certainly not in comparison to Evangelicals and Catholics. 

 

Why is that? 

 

--Erik 

 

After Roe vs Wade it would be spitting into the wind in the United States to waste time being loud about it. Our members and the world at large who care enough to find out know where we stand.

 

After the recent Supreme Court decision we have the same situation with SSM. Have you noticed that other then reiterating their own stance to their members the Church has gotten quieter now that the question is settled? So what is the difference you are trying to point out again?

[VideoGameJunkie]

How can you even compare 2 consenting adults having equal rights and the murdering of innocent unborn children? Of course abortions are worse.

[The Nehor]

How can you even compare 2 consenting adults having equal rights and the murdering of innocent unborn children? Of course abortions are worse.

 

Well, the LDS church institutionally does not consider abortion to be murder. You do not need First Presidency permission to baptize someone who has had or consented to an abortion. We also do not allow provisos for murder in special medically accepted circumstances. Do you think the Church would agree to cutting up an infant as an organ donor to save the life of the mother?

 

And the idea that two consenting adults both agree to do something does not make something okay either.

[Robert F. Smith]

.................................................................they're relatively-speaking quiet on the question of legalized abortion where the mother's health is not in question (what I'm calling for purposes of this thread, "convenience abortion").  This is not to say LDS are in favor of abortion (they aren't)--but they clearly haven't shown the same political interest/energy in the matter of legalized convenience abortion.  And certainly not in comparison to Evangelicals and Catholics. 

 

Why is that? ...................... 

Probably because they have different theological norms.  Roman Catholic doctrine holds that a human life begins at conception.  That is why they are opposed to all abortions of any kind, and consider it murder.  On the other hand, Roman Catholicism also opposes any sort of intervention to prevent fertilization of an ovum (except abstention or the rhythm method), thus encouraging unwanted pregnancies, which in turn increase the number of abortions.

 

The U.S. Supreme Court applied a more temperate norm:  Viability of the fetus outside the womb, which involves medical technology.

[Robert F. Smith]

......................................

And the idea that two consenting adults both agree to do something does not make something okay either.

Perhaps so, but the Brethren determined long ago that they would not inquire into nor intervene in the bedroom activities of married LDS adult heterosexuals.  I believe that was in the Hugh B. Brown administration.

[carbon dioxide]

The LDS Church has been loud in its opposition to legalized same sex marriage - perhaps most famously (infamously?) in its support for "Proposition 8" in California a few years back.  They've had company, of course.  Plenty of Evangelicals, Catholics, and other Christians have endeavored to hold the line for "traditional marriage." 

 

But while LDS have been loud & clear on the same sex marriage issue--they're relatively-speaking quiet on the question of legalized abortion where the mother's health is not in question (what I'm calling for purposes of this thread, "convenience abortion").  This is not to say LDS are in favor of abortion (they aren't)--but they clearly haven't shown the same political interest/energy in the matter of legalized convenience abortion.  And certainly not in comparison to Evangelicals and Catholics. 

 

Why is that? 

 

--Erik 

Abortion has been legal since 1973 so the Church has had no reason to fight a legal fight since that time since it would probably go nowhere.  This was not true with gay marriage until this year.  Now that gay marriage is legal by the same process that abortion is, the Church will slowly move its attention to other things while treating SSM and abortion as both sins.  The Church has to stand for what is right but it also has to accept the fact that if the wicked want their wickedness, they will get it for a time. 

Edited September 27, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[carbon dioxide]

How can you even compare 2 consenting adults having equal rights and the murdering of innocent unborn children? Of course abortions are worse.

Whether people consent in a wicked practice or not does not change anything.  Both will have a negative effect on society in one way or another.   I would bet that the vast majority of people who like legal abortion also endorse same sex marriage.  Probably not as many but still a majority that endorese gay marriage also like legal abortion.

Edited September 27, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[3DOP]

Hey Zola.

Murder is worse. Both are eternally lethal though.

[The Nehor]

Perhaps so, but the Brethren determined long ago that they would not inquire into nor intervene in the bedroom activities of married LDS adult heterosexuals.  I believe that was in the Hugh B. Brown administration.

Which is relevant how?

[Robert F. Smith]

Which is relevant how?

I was responding to your blanket statement that "the idea that two consenting adults both agree to do something does not make something okay either," which I believe to be overly broad.

[Robert F. Smith]

.............................................

.....................................Probably not as many but still a majority that endorese gay marriage also like legal abortion.

An objectively false statement, which you no doubt came up with off the top of your head.  For one thing, I have never met a person who likes legal abortion.  For another, those who endorse same sex marriage are not concerned with abortion -- it is a wholly separate issue, and no data exist on which to base such an odd correlation.

[The Nehor]

I was responding to your blanket statement that "the idea that two consenting adults both agree to do something does not make something okay either," which I believe to be overly broad.

It was not broad. It suggested that there are some things that are okay and some things are not okay. If you feel that defensive you may want to reconsider whatever it is you are doing.

[thesometimesaint]

The LDS Church has been loud in its opposition to legalized same sex marriage - perhaps most famously (infamously?) in its support for "Proposition 8" in California a few years back.  They've had company, of course.  Plenty of Evangelicals, Catholics, and other Christians have endeavored to hold the line for "traditional marriage." 

 

But while LDS have been loud & clear on the same sex marriage issue--they're relatively-speaking quiet on the question of legalized abortion where the mother's health is not in question (what I'm calling for purposes of this thread, "convenience abortion").  This is not to say LDS are in favor of abortion (they aren't)--but they clearly haven't shown the same political interest/energy in the matter of legalized convenience abortion.  And certainly not in comparison to Evangelicals and Catholics. 

 

Why is that? 

 

--Erik 

 

The position of the Church on abortion is quite clear. When under the rare conditions of where the life/health of the mother is not in jeopardy. When not as a result of rape or incest. When survivability of the baby upon birth is not in question, and under doctors recommendation abortion is permissible.

 

SSM is a sin for the LDS. Functionally we have no way to enforce our definitions of sin on those not of our faith. For those of our faith the worst we can do is remove Church membership. Personally what two/or more consenting adults do with each other between the bed sheets is none of my or the states business.

[Teancum]

After Roe vs Wade it would be spitting into the wind in the United States to waste time being loud about it. Our members and the world at large who care enough to find out know where we stand.

After the recent Supreme Court decision we have the same situation with SSM. Have you noticed that other then reiterating their own stance to their members the Church has gotten quieter now that the question is settled? So what is the difference you are trying to point out again?

The church is not quiet at all about SSM. Check out the September Ensign and Elder Ballard's article.

As to the topic I voted abortion is worse, Personally I am extremely opposed to abortion.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Teancum

[Kenngo1969]

Regarding why the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints might "pick its battles," I once wrote:

 

I would be the last to suggest that the Church of Jesus Christ (or that Jesus Christ Himself) should at all be concerned over criticism about how He (that is, Christ) or it (that is, His church) expends resources. However, perhaps the Lord has told the Church and its leaders, essentially, “Okay. We’ve made our stand. That stand is known well enough by now that continuing to expend resources on it to a great degree when we have so many other things to do simply means that return on resources spent on this so-called ‘crusade’ forever will diminish from this point on: the more resources we expend, the less the per-dollar (e.g.,) return will be. I asked my servants to raise a voice of warning. They did so. From now on, I’ll preach my own sermons.”

 

[BlueDreams]

For the poll, I voted other. I don't think either, in general, are great. But I also feel both are over-blown for societal issues. That's probably not a popular thing to say, but it's how I feel. To me, focusing too heavily on either is like cutting at the stems and ignoring the roots of the problem.

 

As for why the church isn't as enthusiastic about this as the catholic or Ev community is what someone else mentioned earlier about having a solid start line for when life is considered a human soul. Personally I don't believe every fertilized egg = a human being. I do think reproduction is sacred and that such actions as creating life or other decisions down the road should be done with prayer and consideration....but I don't think Abortion is necessarily equivalent to Murder (particularly early ones...ie. pre-12 weeks, which is also when the majority of elective abortions are done in the U.S....61% happen before 9 weeks).

 

 

with luv,

BD

Edited September 27, 2015 by BlueDreams

[carbon dioxide]

An objectively false statement, which you no doubt came up with off the top of your head.  For one thing, I have never met a person who likes legal abortion.  For another, those who endorse same sex marriage are not concerned with abortion -- it is a wholly separate issue, and no data exist on which to base such an odd correlation.

I was giving my opinion.  I base it not a study and I understand they are separate issues but I base it on a mind set and I think I would be right.  Just look at the political parties.  Which party strongly favors legal abortion?  Which party strongly favors gay marriage.  I do believe there is a significant overlap of the people who would support both.

[Teancum]

I should also note that while I personally don't understand it I am not opposed at all to SSM and don't view it at all as the moral threat to society that the LDS church leadership does. I would oppose any law forcing religions to perform SSM.

[CV75]

I think using the assertion that either is worse in order to redirect political attention away from the lack of moral standing for the other is absolutely diabolical.

Edited September 27, 2015 by CV75