Abortion

[Barney]

Just a few honest questions about the LDS Church and abortions.

If a member of the LDS Church has an abortion, where does the spirit or soul of the aborted child go?  Does the aborted child float somewhere up there until they've been sealed?  Can the aborted child be sealed?  What if the parent or parents of the aborted child try to hide the abortion?  Can they get a Temple Recommend while concealing the abortion and still be sealed while trying to hide the abortion?  If those with knowledge of the abortion and haven't disclosed their absolute 'fact of knowledge' and they proceed to obtain a Temple Recommend, are they allowed to participate in various Church and Temple functions?  If they've failed to disclose knowledge of the abortion, is everything they've done in the Temple after obtaining a Temple Recommend and performed Temple ceremonies null and void and without effect?

What about those in Church (Stake Leaders, Bishops, and others in the local Ward, members, etc.) who are aware of this who've failed to disclose knowledge of an abortion?  Can they be penalized for not reporting this, including Family Patriarchs who have active knowledge of their own childrens' participation in abortions? 

I realize that these may seem to be loaded questions, but to this day in late 2017, the Elders and Sisters have been unable to answer these questions thus far.  Their general answers are that, "Well, everyone is a sinner, everyone makes mistakes, all can be forgiven, and... pray to Heavenly Father about it and He will lead you to the answer", but they then refer me to the articles provided by Church leadership which don't answer any of these questions.  Personally, I know of one person on planet earth who deserves to know that he or she has an aborted half brother or half sister somewhere out there.

This is not a knock on the Church, nor am I trying to be antagonistic, but I'd like other's views about the LDS Church and the topic of abortion.

[Guest]

These are very loaded questions, and not a topic for the Social Hall. Trim it down, and when you can post it in the correct forum.

[Barney]

It's the only place that this message board would allow me to post.  I wanted to post it in the appropriate forum but the site won't allow me to.  Again, I'm not bashing my Church, but am seeking answers.

[rpn]

We presently don't know when a spirit is personally and permanently connected to a specific body.   That is why the church takes no action against membership for those who have abortions because of rape, incest, or the life of the mother.   We know from two scriptural accounts (john the baptist recognizing Jesus's spirit in the womb, and Jesus speaking to Samuel the Lamanite the night before He was born to reassure him) that when the spirit was in or out of the body can be a long time and a short time before birth.

But stillborn children are not sealed to their parents at this time (maybe be included on family group sheets in recent years, just not have temple work done for them).   Miscarriages are treated the same way.   There is one prophet who spoke about righteous parents being able to raise their children during the millenium (sp?).   But that was way before there were children who lived after 22 weeks in the womb.

No one has to confess their sins to priesthood leaders.    And no one need to share with others their decisions to abort, to finance abortions, or their other help to those who have abortions.  They just won't be able to fully repent of those things until they do notify their priesthood leaders.    And frankly parsing out where the lines are drawn can be somewhat difficult.   For instance, if we can't drive someone to have one, can we nevertheless pick them up and care for them thereafter?    Would we drive and pay for and be with a under aged child during one? (Isn't it what we would reasonably expect Christ to do).  

I can imagine some parents in such situations refusing to allow their child to make the choice to give birth and forcing them to have an abortion, much like some families have forced children to give up babies for adoption.   But is either what we can imagine Christ doing?

Why would anyone be entitled to know they have an aborted half bro out there?  First off, in teh US most abortions are in the first 3 mo which is way before the age John the baptist would have been, and when there is no way a child could life outside the womb.   Second, do we really thing that if that spirit has been assigned to that body, that God will make them permanently attached to the one who aborted them?  That would be ridiculous (and also probably deprive the spirit of the earthly life they are to get, which would defeat God's plan).    

 

And mods, I agree this doesn't belong in social hall, and if the OP needs more posts to be allowed to post in the correct place, perhaps the thread should be removed until or unless the OP can post there.

 

Edited September 13, 2017 by rpn

[ALarson]

28 minutes ago, Barney said:

Just a few honest questions about the LDS Church and abortions.

If a member of the LDS Church has an abortion, where does the spirit or soul of the aborted child go?  Does the aborted child float somewhere up there until they've been sealed?  Can the aborted child be sealed?  What if the parent or parents of the aborted child try to hide the abortion?  Can they get a Temple Recommend while concealing the abortion and still be sealed while trying to hide the abortion?  If those with knowledge of the abortion and haven't disclosed their absolute 'fact of knowledge' and they proceed to obtain a Temple Recommend, are they allowed to participate in various Church and Temple functions?  If they've failed to disclose knowledge of the abortion, is everything they've done in the Temple after obtaining a Temple Recommend and performed Temple ceremonies null and void and without effect?

What about those in Church (Stake Leaders, Bishops, and others in the local Ward, members, etc.) who are aware of this who've failed to disclose knowledge of an abortion?  Can they be penalized for not reporting this, including Family Patriarchs who have active knowledge of their own childrens' participation in abortions? 

I realize that these may seem to be loaded questions, but to this day in late 2017, the Elders and Sisters have been unable to answer these questions thus far.  Their general answers are that, "Well, everyone is a sinner, everyone makes mistakes, all can be forgiven, and... pray to Heavenly Father about it and He will lead you to the answer", but they then refer me to the articles provided by Church leadership which don't answer any of these questions.  Personally, I know of one person on planet earth who deserves to know that he or she has an aborted half brother or half sister somewhere out there.

This is not a knock on the Church, nor am I trying to be antagonistic, but I'd like other's views about the LDS Church and the topic of abortion.

Hi Barney....welcome to the board!

You've asked a lot of questions in your post above.  I suggest that you build up enough posts (25, I think it is) and then post these questions maybe one or two at a time in the General Discussions forum.  There are many here who will do their best to help you with some answers.

[Barney]

I truly and sincerely appreciate your reply and perspective on this.

[ALarson]

9 minutes ago, rpn said:

We presently don't know when a spirit is personally and permanently connected to a single spirit.   That is why the church takes no action against membership for those who have abortions because of rape, incest, or the life of the mother.  

In my experience, the person who had the abortion did not lose their membership if they were repentant.  All of the cases I've dealt with (teenage or young 20's, single women) were disfellowshipped , not excommunicated.  But none of them had been through the temple and were repentant.  Maybe other local leaders handle this differently and I can only speak for mine in this stake.  I know it's taken on a case by case basis too.

Edited September 13, 2017 by ALarson

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, Barney said:

It's the only place that this message board would allow me to post.  I wanted to post it in the appropriate forum but the site won't allow me to.  Again, I'm not bashing my Church, but am seeking answers.

I understand, they want new posters to have a number of posts, to make sure that they are not trolls. I do not say that to imply that you are, just explaining why. 

[Barney]

3 minutes ago, ALarson said:

In my experience, the person who had the abortion did not lose their membership if they are repentant.  All of the cases I've dealt with (teenage or young 20's, single women) were disfellowshipped , not excommunicated.  But none of them had been through the temple and were repentant.  Maybe other local leaders handle this differently and I can only speak for mine in this stake.  I know it's taken on a case by case basis too.

Much thanks ALarson.  Hopefully this topic can get moved to a more appropriate forum.

[Barney]

4 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I understand, they want new posters to have a number of posts, to make sure that they are not trolls. I do not say that to imply that you are, just explaining why. 

Not a problem at all, Bill.  Just looking for answers.  As I advised ALarson, hopefully this could get placed in the appropriate forum.  And yes, my Elders and Sisters are always welcomed at my place.  Thank you for the explanation!

[Nemesis]

I'm leaving this here, I don't think you are looking for a debate but for constructive discussion of you questions.  

nemesis

[JLHPROF]

17 hours ago, Barney said:

Just a few honest questions about the LDS Church and abortions.

If a member of the LDS Church has an abortion, where does the spirit or soul of the aborted child go?  Does the aborted child float somewhere up there until they've been sealed?  Can the aborted child be sealed? 

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1987/09/i-have-a-question?lang=eng

Perhaps these statements on miscarriages and stillbirths may address this part of your question.

[Barney]

15 hours ago, Nemesis said:

I'm leaving this here, I don't think you are looking for a debate but for constructive discussion of you questions.  

nemesis

Exactly!

 

[Barney]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1987/09/i-have-a-question?lang=eng

Perhaps these statements on miscarriages and stillbirths may address this part of your question.

Hey, much thanks!  I don't have issues of the Ensign from way back in '87, so thank goodness for lds.org, right?  It's appreciated.

[Guest]

19 hours ago, Barney said:

Not a problem at all, Bill.  Just looking for answers.  As I advised ALarson, hopefully this could get placed in the appropriate forum.  And yes, my Elders and Sisters are always welcomed at my place.  Thank you for the explanation!

Now that your thread has been allowed to stay here, I will tell you all I know concerning these issues. Yes, abortion is a for which a person or persons can be forgiven. Children can only be sealed to parents if they are given birth too, and given a name, no matter how long the child lived. However, any child who is born under the covenant, meaning the parents have already been married and sealed in the Temple are already sealed to their parents. Also it is believed that the spirit, enters the child the first time the baby moves,  being quickened by the spirit. For those who have entered the Temple who have not been honest in confessing serious sins, of which abortion is very, very serious sin. If they come forward after, they may face probation, be disfellowshiped, or excommunication. But if they remain members and are not excommunicated, their marriage will remain in force, and their children will still be sealed to them. Even then, I doubt any punishment will ever be worse than the hell, that Mother's especially put themselves through for having aborted their child. 

But the Grace of God, through the Atonement, and by applying the "Balm of Gilead", there can be found forgiveness and healing, and one day in the heavens they can and will know these children. But for those who refuse to repent, who are defiant and made to feel they have done nothing wrong by societies standards, will never know that joy of meeting and knowing those whom they disregarded. Those whom they sacrificed on the altar of convenience, in an effort to hide a much less grevious sin. Having said this, and after having shown true repentance, and experienced God's forgiveness, one needs to find the strength to forgive themselves, as do we all. For God's words, make it clear that we cannot be forgiven, except we forgive all others, this means forgiving  ourselves as well. The inability to forgive oneself, is one of the greatest stumbling blocks that keeps many from ever returning to the fold. For some it feels selfish to forgive ourselves of our own sins, but doing so is as much an act of kindness, and Christlike love, as it is to forgive friends, family, neighbors and strangers. Because on then can we start walking down the road that leads to like everlasting, and eternal life. 

I hope some of these words help. Oh, and welcome to the website.

Bill "Papa" Lee

Atlanta, Georgia

[Barney]

Much thanks, Bill!  Very well said, and it is appreciated!