Same Sex Marriage Vs. Convenience Abortion - A Question Of Priority And Societal Harm

[KevinG]

But just to clarify -- and bring it back around to the OP:

 

While Prop 8 *may* have been more significant than Prop 4, abortion is still a vastly more serious issue for society than gay marriage.  Full stop.

 

(I don't want anyone to think I was backing away from my original answer.)

 

Abortion may very well be a more pressing moral issue than gay marriage.  However, at the time of the California ballot initiatives, gay marriage was a more pressing political and legal issue than informing the parents of minors seeking abortion services.  Quite simply the issue was more prominent in the public discourse even before the LDS leaders made a public statement and provided in kind services to the campaign.

 

There is no evidence provided in this discussion that the two subjects were somehow prioritized by our church based on their relative social harm.  

[CV75]

abortion is still a vastly more serious issue for society than gay marriage.  Full stop.

Abortion may very well be a more pressing moral issue than gay marriage.

 

I think they have a combined and synergistic effect on dulling the moral senses in whatever society that supports them. Just like the workers of darkness and secret combinations have mutually energizing relationship (Alma 37:30-31, 2 Nephi 9:9, 2 Nephi 26:22, Mormon 8:27*). That one is arguably / seemingly more detrimental than the other.is dependent on time and circumstance, and subjectivity and attitudes.

 

*

Yea, and cursed be the land forever and ever unto those workers of darkness and secret combinations, even unto destruction, except they repent before they are fully ripe.

 

… that being who beguiled our first parents, who transformeth himself nigh unto an angel of light, and stirreth up the children of men unto secret combinations of murder and all manner of secret works of darkness.

 

And there are also secret combinations, even as in times of old, according to the combinations of the devil, for he is the founder of all these things; yea, the founder of murder, and works of darkness; yea, and he leaded them by the neck with a flaxen cord, until he bindeth them with his strong cords forever.

 

And it shall come in a day when the blood of saints shall cry unto the Lord, because of secret combinations and the works of darkness.

 

For, from the days of Cain, there was a secret combination, and their works were in the dark, and they knew every man his brother.

[Robert F. Smith]

What is odd is that the U.S. Supreme Court recognizes the personhood of corporations (Citizens United), but not of fertilized human ova.

Not sure what that has to do with anything, but OK.

Well, you were talking about the personhood of fetuses, which is not recognized by the Supreme Court.  Yet, the personhood of corporations is recognized.  You don't find that ironic?

Edited September 30, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

 

abortion is still a vastly more serious issue for society than gay marriage.  Full stop.

 

I think they have a combined and synergistic effect on dulling the moral senses in whatever society that supports them. Just like the workers of darkness and secret combinations have mutually energizing relationship (Alma 37:30-31, 2 Nephi 9:9, 2 Nephi 26:22, Mormon 8:27*). That one is arguably / seemingly more detrimental than the other.is dependent on time and circumstance, and subjectivity and attitudes.

..........................................................................

Does the LDS Church equivocate when not objecting to abortion in cases of incest, rape, or threat to life of mother?  Is our moral sense dulled by such allowances?  Or should we go whole hog?

[KevinG]

This continues to illustrate how ridiculous the premise is that the LDS Church somehow finds one abomination more objectionable than another abomination because they invested more time in a particular political issue than another...  Really?!

[CV75]

Does the LDS Church equivocate when not objecting to abortion in cases of incest, rape, or threat to life of mother?  Is our moral sense dulled by such allowances?  Or should we go whole hog?

I don't count those cases as problematic. I'll equivocate in that I can't tell which responsible parties obtain God's will for the decision and which use the policy as the letter and not the spirit of the law. In either case, I think the moral sense is established before the decision is obtained and enacted, and continues its direction afterward.

[rockpond]

Abortion may very well be a more pressing moral issue than gay marriage. However, at the time of the California ballot initiatives, gay marriage was a more pressing political and legal issue than informing the parents of minors seeking abortion services. Quite simply the issue was more prominent in the public discourse even before the LDS leaders made a public statement and provided in kind services to the campaign.

There is no evidence provided in this discussion that the two subjects were somehow prioritized by our church based on their relative social harm.

I agree that we don't know how or why church leaders decided to throw time, energy, and money after Prop 8 over other causes.

But I disagree that Prop 8 was a more pressing legal and political issue. Even though church leadership achieved their objective in passing Prop 8, they ultimately lost having the Supreme Court determine that it was unconstitutional. So, it actually wasn't very pressing.

[Robert F. Smith]

The Islamophobia is this country is deeply disturbing. We have a local politician easily garnering attention by riding the wave of this fear. She is boldly fighting the imposition of Sharia Law in a nearby community. Only thing is no one can find anyone trying to implement it. Still works.

When I say "Sharia Law" in this context, you should read it as code for religious totalitarianism, which is anti-Constitutional, but very popular among some sectors of American society.  Mormons suffered terribly at the hands of that sector of American society.  How easily we forget.

[The Nehor]

When did we become Jesuits and decide we need to rank sins?

[jkwilliams]

When did we become Jesuits and decide we need to rank sins?

Alma 39:5 seems to suggest that some sins are more serious than others.

[The Nehor]

Alma 39:5 seems to suggest that some sins are more serious than others.

True, but I would say other then those given in scripture ranking sins by seriousness is a largely pointless exercise and in some cases is even harmful.

[jkwilliams]

True, but I would say other then those given in scripture ranking sins by seriousness is a largely pointless exercise and in some cases is even harmful.

Doesn't stop people from doing it.

This is just a reminder to me that LDS doctrine views sin differently than does, say, Protestant teachings. In Mormonism, each sin is something that must be repented of, and we often talk of "unreprented sin," suggesting that to be washed clean through the Atonement, one must confess and forsake individual sins. In this sense, it's not surprising that people rank sins. Protestant theology, on the other hand, treats sin as the fallen human condition. The Atonement doesn't so much cover individual sins but our sinful nature, so I've known more than a few Protestants who are bewildered at the idea that one type of sin is worse than another.

I should say I'm not a Protestant. lol

[Robert F. Smith]

In the Society for Mormon Philosophy and Theology (SMPT) program, Saturday Oct 10 in the Joseph F. Smith Humanities Bldg,  B040, there will be a panel discussion of “Understanding the LDS Church’s Abortion policy,” with Brandon Dabling, Annie Grow, and Nancy Stewart, all of Brigham Young University.  See the full program at http://www.smpt.org/conferences_2015.html .

[Teancum]

When did we become Jesuits and decide we need to rank sins?

 

 

The LDS Church has been doing this for quite sometime.  Have you not heard of the third worst sin?

[Teancum]

Alma 39:5 seems to suggest that some sins are more serious than others.

 

 

Or LDS leaders took it and made it more than it really needed to be.......

[Teancum]

True, but I would say other then those given in scripture ranking sins by seriousness is a largely pointless exercise and in some cases is even harmful.

 

 

I agree.

 

Too bad the leaders of the church disagree.

[Five Solas]

You see what you want to see.  Prop 4 was about informing parents about parental notification for abortion.  I'm sure the LDS Church was in favor of parental access, but even more in favor of not having abortion on demand.  It was not as pivotal and issue as legalizing gay marriage, which as we have seen has had a very significant impact on the law of the land regarding marriage and what defines a family legally.

 

Presenting this as which moral issue was more important to the LDS leadership is what really makes no sense. 

What I see (and other readers too, no doubt) is that you jettisoned your previous argument - "The whole reason the church took a position on Prop. 8 is because it was a current political debate, not because there was some prioritization..." in favor of a new one the moment your previous position collided with a hard fact (the existence of Prop. 4 demonstrating abortion was every bit as current on the 2008 ballot). 

 

But you never acknowledged your error, instead you substituted your new argument (i.e., Prop 4 wasn't sufficiently impactful & therefore was unworthy of LDS Church attention) and thereby pretended you were right all along--and you collected two rep points along the way.  Nice work when you can get it, KevinG...

;0)

 

--Erik

[Five Solas]

Doesn't stop people from doing it.

This is just a reminder to me that LDS doctrine views sin differently than does, say, Protestant teachings. In Mormonism, each sin is something that must be repented of, and we often talk of "unreprented sin," suggesting that to be washed clean through the Atonement, one must confess and forsake individual sins. In this sense, it's not surprising that people rank sins. Protestant theology, on the other hand, treats sin as the fallen human condition. The Atonement doesn't so much cover individual sins but our sinful nature, so I've known more than a few Protestants who are bewildered at the idea that one type of sin is worse than another.

I should say I'm not a Protestant. lol

As a Protestant, I wouldn't quite express it that way, but I would offer up James 2:10 for consideration to any inclined to "rank sins."

 

For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.

 

--Erik

[thesometimesaint]

Any unrepented of sin will keep you out of Heaven. Some sins are just harder to fully repent of.

[Robert F. Smith]

Any unrepented of sin will keep you out of Heaven. Some sins are just harder to fully repent of.

Nonsense.  All will be immortal and nearly all will go to heaven (except those few destined for Perdition), courtesy of the Atonement.  The ranking comes in when it is determined which glory one will inherit: Telestial, Terrestrial, or Celestial (and which rank in the Celestial).  We cannot pay for our own sins.  Jesus took care of that, and it is by His grace that we are saved, even though it is and must be reflected in our works.

[PeterPear]

Sins are ranked in seriousness. King David committed adultery of which he can be forgiven, but he also committed murder thus he lost his exaltation and will inherit the Telestial Kingdom.

The sins that are the most serious are the ones that involve coming into and out of mortality:

Murder, Abortion, Adultery, Fornication.

Edited October 4, 2015 by PeterPear

[Robert F. Smith]

I agree that we don't know how or why church leaders decided to throw time, energy, and money after Prop 8 over other causes.

But I disagree that Prop 8 was a more pressing legal and political issue. Even though church leadership achieved their objective in passing Prop 8, they ultimately lost having the Supreme Court determine that it was unconstitutional. So, it actually wasn't very pressing.

On the contrary, this was an issue which needed to be decided, and the LDS Church conveniently helped decide the ultimate issue.  The Gay community should be  thanking us, not only for arguing in favor of tolerance and open accommodations, but for obedience to law.  Our inspired Constitution has once again proven its value in a modern democracy with judicial review.  None of us should be in any way disappointed, pro or con.

[The Nehor]

The LDS Church has been doing this for quite sometime.  Have you not heard of the third worst sin?

 

Saying you hate funeral potatos?

[The Nehor]

I agree.

 

Too bad the leaders of the church disagree.

 

Except for the ones in scripture I disagree. They point out rightly that some sins are more physically or spiritually dangerous in some cases because of serious possible consequences (addiction, unplanned parenthood, prison, etc.) but that does not necessarily make them worse.

[lowroom]

I understand that someone may personally hate abortion. However, it appears that we are somewhat unclear about when a body and spirit are fully linked to the point that terminating the physical vessel results in the end of a person's second estate. The example given that a woman who has had an abortion can be baptized without the same level of clearance as a person convicted of manslaughter is telling.

3 Nephi 1:13 is frequently cited where Christ visits and states "On the morrow come I into the world". If he can leave his physical tabernacle one day prior to birth when we have no evidence of him being two places at once after his birth until after his death. Is it possible that the spirit and body are not inextricably connected until the first breath outside the mother's body?

I would never argue that it is ok to perform a partial birth abortion without a better understanding.

However I also have a hard time believing that a zygote (morning after pill), blastula or even a somitogenesis stage embryo is a person.

While it was hard for my wife and I to experience a miscarriage early in her first trimester I have never assumed that was a child of our Heavenly Father and the only chance that spirit had to enter the world.