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In Latter Times Some Shall Forbid Marriage


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1 Timothy 4

4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

 

I have not started a thread in several years.  So deciding to do this is not without careful thought.  In another thread, I brought this scripture up with several very interesting reactions to it. I felt like I would like to explore this prophecy of Paul, and it should be done in it's own thread.  Two things make these verses very interesting.  First, Paul clearly states that unlike some of his writings, this is not just his opinion.  He starts his point out saying specifically "Now the Spirit speakers".  The second important distinction from other writings of Paul is this part. " In the latter times".  Paul is not talking about his opinion or his time and issues of his day.  He is talking specifically about our time, the latter days under the influence of the Holy Spirit.  

Growing up, these Bible verses were used to point at "that other church" as proof that they had strayed from the teachings of Christ.  Looking back at it now, I see how wrong that belief was.  Because while my church teachers were pointing to "that other church" the church itself was forbidding to marry.  Perhaps the worse part of the discrimination against blacks was not the denying of the priesthood to them, but the denying families of temple marriage.

At the very core of the gospel is the Plan of Happiness.  And at the very core of that Plan of Happiness is the family.  You take eternal marriage and the importance of family out of that plan and you have nothing.  In fact the whole reason for the gospel collapses.  Yet, in these latter days, when the church forbids gay couples from marrying, that is exactly what that policy does to gay members.  It takes away from them the Plan of Happiness simply because they are gay.  It excludes them from the very fundamental core of the gospel in exactly the same way as past policies took away the Plan of Happiness simply because they were black.

I don't believe there is any other single issue that is dividing faithful members of the church more than this issue.  According to the documents posted on Mormon leaks 70% of the young people are leaving the church.  Many of them point specifically to the policy concerning gays as the reason they can no long in good consciousness stay involved in the church.  On this board we have those serving in leadership positions who reject the church policy of forbidding marriage simply because someone is gay.  In just ONE year, the church has seen a drop of 11% opposing gay marriage.  Ultimately, where is this policy headed.  Why is the Spirit whispering to so many members that something is wrong. in baring someone from core fundamental teachings of the gospel.

Just how easily is it to dismiss this prophecy of Paul "latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;....Forbidding to marry".

 

 

Posted
13 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Are you speaking for Paul? This is an odd interpretation of his words.

Those few who were denied temple marriage because of race for a brief period will certainly not be deprived of that blessing in the eternities.

How do you define marriage? The logical end of your reasoning is that there should be no restrictions on any kind of marriage. 

I am quoting Paul directly.  Were you confused by that?

That brief period of time you speak of was well over 100 years of denying anyone black temple marriage.  It now includes gay couples that same marriage.

Are you denying that the church forbids gay couples from marrying?  I define marriage in the same way the church defines marriage which currently is forbidden if you are a gay couple.  

 

Posted
4 minutes ago, california boy said:

I am quoting Paul directly.  Were you confused by that?

That brief period of time you speak of was well over 100 years of denying anyone black temple marriage.  It now includes gay couples that same marriage.

Are you denying that the church forbids gay couples from marrying?  I define marriage in the same way the church defines marriage which currently is forbidden if you are a gay couple.  

 

At the time Paul wrote this, there was no such thing as gay marriage neither among the Jews nor the Christians, nor, in point of fact, among the Pagans.  At the time he wrote this, "marriage" meant a personal union between persons of the opposite sex.

And you think that Paul meant that forbidding gay marriage was a sign of the times? I imagine that he would have been surprised to learn this. Especially since if this is what he meant, the "latter times" were there already.

Nice try, CB, but your logic destroys itself.

 

Posted

"Those few who were denied temple marriage because of race for a brief period will certainly not be deprived of that blessing in the eternities."

Nor were they ever forbidden nontemple mortal marriage, which must be part of the Plan of Salavation at least for some since we see that as a stepping stone to sealing for the dead, we don't just start proxy sealings from scratch.

Posted
35 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

At the time Paul wrote this, there was no such thing as gay marriage neither among the Jews nor the Christians, nor, in point of fact, among the Pagans.  At the time he wrote this, "marriage" meant a personal union between persons of the opposite sex.

And you think that Paul meant that forbidding gay marriage was a sign of the times? I imagine that he would have been surprised to learn this. Especially since if this is what he meant, the "latter times" were there already.

Nice try, CB, but your logic destroys itself.

 

Which is exactly why Paul specifically stated that the Spirit was talking about the latter days not his time period when there was no gay marriage.

So now you believe that Paul was living in latter times?  In any event, it is not what Paul believed.  It is what the Holy  Spieit was revealing to him.  So you would also have to believe that the Holy Spirit thought that Paul was living in the latter days.

Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, Calm said:

"Those few who were denied temple marriage because of race for a brief period will certainly not be deprived of that blessing in the eternities."

Nor were they ever forbidden nontemple mortal marriage, which must be part of the Plan of Salavation at least for some since we see that as a stepping stone to sealing for the dead, we don't just start proxy sealings from scratch.

Given that logic, no one is denied temple marriage for this brief period of time.  Sp why even have temple marriage?  Perhaps the work will be done for gay couples after they die.  But why deny them the blessings of temple marriage in this life?

And perhaps you have identified why so many members of the church are feeling so strongly the whisperings of the Spirit on this issue..  Not only is the church denying gay couples the right to participate in the Plan of Happiness by forbidding temple marriage,  it has also tried to deny them even the right to marry in this life, which as you stated is a stepping stone to sealing for the dead.  

Calm you are certainly doing a better job at pointing out how wrong this church policy is for those that are gay than I have.

Edited by california boy
Posted

Slight derail, 1 Timothy is widely thought to be  pseudepigraphic - not written by Paul, just attributed to him by some other writer. Not that this has anything to do with your argument.

 

Derail over!

Posted
4 hours ago, california boy said:

Which is exactly why Paul specifically stated that the Spirit was talking about the latter days not his time period when there was no gay marriage.

So now you believe that Paul was living in latter times?  In any event, it is not what Paul believed.  It is what the Holy  Spieit was revealing to him.  So you would also have to believe that the Holy Spirit thought that Paul was living in the latter days.

Don't you think that Paul would have forbidden gay marriage too?  Why would Paul say "in the latter times", as if things would be different and condemnable, if gays were forbidden to marry in his time?  

Posted
6 hours ago, california boy said:

 

I have not started a thread in several years.

What a sermon, Pastor Boy! LOL...

But it seems instead you are the one forbidding to marry by forbidding God to keep the covenant exactly as He instituted it.

But the original meaning of this text had to do with one of many absurdities and perverted ascetic tendencies found in the budding monastic systems of his day. To him, last days were to be found at two junctures: before the Apostasy, and again with the Restoration.

Posted
19 minutes ago, CV75 said:

But it seems instead you are the one forbidding to marry by forbidding God to keep the covenant exactly as He instituted it.

I've often thought that, too. 

Posted (edited)

I hope you are wrong. If that interpretation of that verse holds we can expect militant vegans to take control of the church soon and forbid meat.

Edited by The Nehor
Posted
3 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

Absolutely delusional. So now the apostle Paul who taught that "the man is not without the woman and the woman is not without the man in the Lord," and who also condemned homosexuality as an ungodly abomination in strongest possible terms, is now cast as an advocate for gay marriage in the latter-days? Have you ever stopped to seriously consider the fact that it's the advocates of gay marriage who are the ones who are giving heed to seducing spirits?

 

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Don't you think that Paul would have forbidden gay marriage too?  Why would Paul say "in the latter times", as if things would be different and condemnable, if gays were forbidden to marry in his time?  

Of course you would expect Paul to want women and men to marry.  It is key to the gospel plan as I mentioned earlier.  And I would agree with you that we can not find anything in Paul's writings concerning gay marriage.  In fact it would be absurd to think that there would be since gay marriage was not around during Paul's lifetime.  

But this is what is so interesting about these verses.  They do not represent the beliefs of Paul.  He clearly states that these thoughts came to him by the Spirit of God.  And they are not relevant during his lifetime.  They will become relevant in the latter days.  It is not often that the scriptures so clearly differentiate between the thoughts and beliefs of the writer from the word of God.  But this is one of those times where it is crystal clear where that prophecy came from.  "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly"  It is not Paul speaking at all is it.

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, CV75 said:

What a sermon, Pastor Boy! LOL...

But it seems instead you are the one forbidding to marry by forbidding God to keep the covenant exactly as He instituted it.

 

But the original meaning of this text had to do with one of many absurdities and perverted ascetic tendencies found in the budding monastic systems of his day. To him, last days were to be found at two junctures: before the Apostasy, and again with the Restoration.

 

You do realize that it is not me that is writing these verses.  It is Paul recording what the Holy Spirit is telling him to write.   If there is condemnation that is needed, your only condemnation has to be directed at the source of these verses. The understanding of Paul is irrelevant.  He is not the author.  He is the one recording what was given to him by God Himself.  And it has no relevance to the budding monastic system of his day.  Paul also clearly states that these teachings given to him were only going to be relevant in the latter days, in our time, not his.  

I don't think I have ever condemned marriage as practiced by straight people.  In fact I perhaps am the most pro marriage person on this board.  I am not telling God how to practice marriage at all.  And I am not the institution that is forbidding marriage in the latter days.

Edited by california boy
Posted
36 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I hope you are wrong. If that interpretation of that verse holds we can expect militant vegans to take control of the church soon and forbid meat.

The latter days can be a very scary time to live.  Brace yourself.  But the good news is, you have it backwards.  It is the meat eaters that are going to devour the church.  The Holy Spirit is condemning vegans.  Something I tend to do on a regular basis.

Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, california boy said:

 

Of course you would expect Paul to want women and men to marry.  It is key to the gospel plan as I mentioned earlier.  And I would agree with you that we can not find anything in Paul's writings concerning gay marriage.  In fact it would be absurd to think that there would be since gay marriage was not around during Paul's lifetime.  

But this is what is so interesting about these verses.  They do not represent the beliefs of Paul.  He clearly states that these thoughts came to him by the Spirit of God.  And they are not relevant during his lifetime.  They will become relevant in the latter days.  It is not often that the scriptures so clearly differentiate between the thoughts and beliefs of the writer from the word of God.  But this is one of those times where it is crystal clear where that prophecy came from.  "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly"  It is not Paul speaking at all is it.

Now the spirit speaketh expressly,  "In the latter times, some shall forbid to marry...actually, come to think of it, that is no different from your time Paul.  Let me rephrase - In the latter times, people will continue to forbid to marry, just as they are doing today.  Further still, in the future people will actually be allowed to marry who are forbidden in your time Paul.  Let me try this one more time - In the latter times, people who can't marry now, will be able to marry then."

Edited by pogi
Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, california boy said:

 

I don't believe there is any other single issue that is dividing faithful members of the church more than this issue.  According to the documents posted on Mormon leaks 70% of the young people are leaving the church.  Many of them point specifically to the policy concerning gays as the reason they can no long in good consciousness stay involved in the church.

Just as a tangent, I'd be careful with that statistic. That was from 2008 and thus the data was from before then. It applied to young single adults (presumably those between 18-30) for North America. Most are leaving before 20. Yet when we look at statistics for the United States we simply don't see that huge a drop. That implies rather strongly that this is biased by Latin America and is likely due to unique problems there. Without having good data it's hard to know what the issue is. I'm simply not well versed on Latin America. Mexico of course legalized gay marriage with a constitutional amendment in 2010. But the polls I found seemed to suggest public opinion was lagging that of the United States. (Although in many cases the polls were somewhat dated)

That's not to deny a world wide generational gap on these issues in the least. Just that I think we have to be careful assuming that this, and not broader trends, are driving retention. While I think in the US there are huge generational gaps on this issue the fact is that the Nones were rising well before public opinion flipped on gay marriage. Likewise while I don't know what's going on in Latin America, I suspect weak Church infrastructure and baptisms of families (including kids) that soon fall away is the primary driver. Along with the None affect that's starting to hit other nations.

I'm just quite skeptical that were the Church to reverse all its doctrine and start allowing Church sponsored gay marriage that the trends would shift at all. i.e. I think the trends are deeper and that people might point to particular disagreements as the reason for leaving without those being the actual driver. The obvious reason for that is that more liberal theological churches that embrace gay marriage are losing members quickly, not gaining them. If the issue were really about these issues we'd expect, especially in the more general Christian demographic, a shift from conservative Christianity to liberal Christianity. Yet that's exactly what we're not seeing.

Edited by clarkgoble
Posted
8 hours ago, california boy said:

 

I have not started a thread in several years.  So deciding to do this is not without careful thought.  In another thread, I brought this scripture up with several very interesting reactions to it. I felt like I would like to explore this prophecy of Paul, and it should be done in it's own thread.  Two things make these verses very interesting.  First, Paul clearly states that unlike some of his writings, this is not just his opinion.  He starts his point out saying specifically "Now the Spirit speakers".  The second important distinction from other writings of Paul is this part. " In the latter times".  Paul is not talking about his opinion or his time and issues of his day.  He is talking specifically about our time, the latter days under the influence of the Holy Spirit.  

Growing up, these Bible verses were used to point at "that other church" as proof that they had strayed from the teachings of Christ.  Looking back at it now, I see how wrong that belief was.  Because while my church teachers were pointing to "that other church" the church itself was forbidding to marry.  Perhaps the worse part of the discrimination against blacks was not the denying of the priesthood to them, but the denying families of temple marriage.

At the very core of the gospel is the Plan of Happiness.  And at the very core of that Plan of Happiness is the family.  You take eternal marriage and the importance of family out of that plan and you have nothing.  In fact the whole reason for the gospel collapses.  Yet, in these latter days, when the church forbids gay couples from marrying, that is exactly what that policy does to gay members.  It takes away from them the Plan of Happiness simply because they are gay.  It excludes them from the very fundamental core of the gospel in exactly the same way as past policies took away the Plan of Happiness simply because they were black.

I don't believe there is any other single issue that is dividing faithful members of the church more than this issue.  According to the documents posted on Mormon leaks 70% of the young people are leaving the church.  Many of them point specifically to the policy concerning gays as the reason they can no long in good consciousness stay involved in the church.  On this board we have those serving in leadership positions who reject the church policy of forbidding marriage simply because someone is gay.  In just ONE year, the church has seen a drop of 11% opposing gay marriage.  Ultimately, where is this policy headed.  Why is the Spirit whispering to so many members that something is wrong. in baring someone from core fundamental teachings of the gospel.

Just how easily is it to dismiss this prophecy of Paul "latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;....Forbidding to marry".

 

 

Very well stated, but due to my circumstances it hard for me to do multi- quote responses on my iPad. Gave you a rep point, because this is well thought out, respectful and makes good analogy. So I will address one point at a time, if you do not think it will make the thread too cumbersome. So, let me know I have your permission; thanks! 

Posted
29 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Very well stated, but due to my circumstances it hard for me to do multi- quote responses on my iPad. Gave you a rep point, because this is well thought out, respectful and makes good analogy. So I will address one point at a time, if you do not think it will make the thread too cumbersome. So, let me know I have your permission; thanks! 

Absolutely.  The whole point of this discussion board is to exchange views and ideas on how we each think about the questions that face us on all issues.  I always value hearing your thoughts.

Posted
44 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Just as a tangent, I'd be careful with that statistic. That was from 2008 and thus the data was from before then. It applied to young single adults (presumably those between 18-30) for North America. Most are leaving before 20. Yet when we look at statistics for the United States we simply don't see that huge a drop. That implies rather strongly that this is biased by Latin America and is likely due to unique problems there. Without having good data it's hard to know what the issue is. I'm simply not well versed on Latin America. Mexico of course legalized gay marriage with a constitutional amendment in 2010. But the polls I found seemed to suggest public opinion was lagging that of the United States. (Although in many cases the polls were somewhat dated)

That's not to deny a world wide generational gap on these issues in the least. Just that I think we have to be careful assuming that this, and not broader trends, are driving retention. While I think in the US there are huge generational gaps on this issue the fact is that the Nones were rising well before public opinion flipped on gay marriage. Likewise while I don't know what's going on in Latin America, I suspect weak Church infrastructure and baptisms of families (including kids) that soon fall away is the primary driver. Along with the None affect that's starting to hit other nations.

I'm just quite skeptical that were the Church to reverse all its doctrine and start allowing Church sponsored gay marriage that the trends would shift at all. i.e. I think the trends are deeper and that people might point to particular disagreements as the reason for leaving without those being the actual driver. The obvious reason for that is that more liberal theological churches that embrace gay marriage are losing members quickly, not gaining them. If the issue were really about these issues we'd expect, especially in the more general Christian demographic, a shift from conservative Christianity to liberal Christianity. Yet that's exactly what we're not seeing.

I went back and looked at the poll that I referenced.  It was from last year, 2016 and it was a poll of Americans.  Not sure what poll you thought I was referring to.  

If you are referring to the Mormon leak statistic, I don't really have anything to back that number up other than what was quoted.  It does sound pretty high to me as well for 18-30 age Americans.  But I do have this quote from the poll that I actually was referencing which was from last year and is a poll amongst young people in the US.

Quote

These PRRI findings are similar, but not identical, to what we found among the youngest and oldest Mormons in the Next Mormons Survey (NMS, 2016). The 18-26 age bracket of that study showed support for same sex-marriage at 40.2%, nearly twice the 20.3% support among Mormons 52 and over.

I think there is no question that this issue is a bigger problem for the youth than for older generations.  How big of issue that is I don't think anyone has an accurate number on.  But I have heard and I am sure you have as well, that this issue is frequently sited as a reason some of that age group have left the church.  

Hope that is somewhat helpful

 

Posted
9 hours ago, california boy said:

Just how easily is it to dismiss this prophecy of Paul "latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;....Forbidding to marry".

Your other points are a much better support. Trying to use this as a proof text  is rather strange and requires foundation, such as documentation of any discussion of gay marriage in the era and locale of this text.

 

1 hour ago, california boy said:

You do realize that it is not me that is writing these verses.  It is Paul recording what the Holy Spirit is telling him to write.   If there is condemnation that is needed, your only condemnation has to be directed at the source of these verses. The understanding of Paul is irrelevant.  He is not the author.  He is the one recording what was given to him by God Himself.  And it has no relevance to the budding monastic system of his day.  Paul also clearly states that these teachings given to him were only going to be relevant in the latter days, in our time, not his.  

 

 First, it may not be Paul at all. Second, Paul does not shrink from writing his opinion...he declares it. And am I to understand that you believe all scripture to be God breathed? That isn't a particularly LDS position.

Again, this has nothing to do with the merits of your argument. It is a diversion from it, however. 

Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, california boy said:

I went back and looked at the poll that I referenced.  It was from last year, 2016 and it was a poll of Americans.  Not sure what poll you thought I was referring to.  

I was talking of the Mormon Leaks you referred to regarding 70% losses not changes by demographic cohort over views of gay marriage. I agreed with that point. I'm just skeptical regarding that 70% figure as it doesn't match other studies. Also the Jana Riess study explicitly didn't ask if people left because of gay marriage. (She discusses this in her final paragraph)

Edited by clarkgoble
Posted
22 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I was talking of the Mormon Leaks you referred to regarding 70% losses not changes by demographic cohort over views of gay marriage. I agreed with that point. I'm just skeptical regarding that 70% figure as it doesn't match other studies. Also the Jana Riess study explicitly didn't ask if people left because of gay marriage. (She discusses this in her final paragraph)

Thanks for your clarification.  I am inclined to agree with you.

Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, california boy said:

 

I have not started a thread in several years.  So deciding to do this is not without careful thought.  In another thread, I brought this scripture up with several very interesting reactions to it. I felt like I would like to explore this prophecy of Paul, and it should be done in it's own thread.  Two things make these verses very interesting.  First, Paul clearly states that unlike some of his writings, this is not just his opinion.  He starts his point out saying specifically "Now the Spirit speakers".  The second important distinction from other writings of Paul is this part. " In the latter times".  Paul is not talking about his opinion or his time and issues of his day.  He is talking specifically about our time, the latter days under the influence of the Holy Spirit.  

Growing up, these Bible verses were used to point at "that other church" as proof that they had strayed from the teachings of Christ.  Looking back at it now, I see how wrong that belief was.  Because while my church teachers were pointing to "that other church" the church itself was forbidding to marry.  Perhaps the worse part of the discrimination against blacks was not the denying of the priesthood to them, but the denying families of temple marriage.

At the very core of the gospel is the Plan of Happiness.  And at the very core of that Plan of Happiness is the family.  You take eternal marriage and the importance of family out of that plan and you have nothing.  In fact the whole reason for the gospel collapses.  Yet, in these latter days, when the church forbids gay couples from marrying, that is exactly what that policy does to gay members.  It takes away from them the Plan of Happiness simply because they are gay.  It excludes them from the very fundamental core of the gospel in exactly the same way as past policies took away the Plan of Happiness simply because they were black.

I don't believe there is any other single issue that is dividing faithful members of the church more than this issue.  According to the documents posted on Mormon leaks 70% of the young people are leaving the church.  Many of them point specifically to the policy concerning gays as the reason they can no long in good consciousness stay involved in the church.  On this board we have those serving in leadership positions who reject the church policy of forbidding marriage simply because someone is gay.  In just ONE year, the church has seen a drop of 11% opposing gay marriage.  Ultimately, where is this policy headed.  Why is the Spirit whispering to so many members that something is wrong. in baring someone from core fundamental teachings of the gospel.

Just how easily is it to dismiss this prophecy of Paul "latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;....Forbidding to marry".

 

 

Verse 3 states, as you've quoted, "which God hath created."  The pattern of marriage which God established in the Garden of Eden was between a man and a woman.  I am not aware of God commanding or establishing a pattern of marriage whereby a man marries a man or a woman a woman. 

Edited by ksfisher
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