Sensationalism

[Jeanne]

4 hours ago, Mystery Meat said:

Fortunately, my family remains untouched, thus far. But it is destroying the family, by creating an impostor family unit or counterfeit family unit that is contrary to the laws of God. In a family with parents of the same gender, there is no continuation in the next life and will be forceably broken as such are not divinely sanctioned. The more people who believe such marriages are okay, the more harm that can potentially be done to the families of our society, not just here, but in the eternities.

A whole lot of different families out there that would disagree.  Families are people who love, respect, and take care of eachother.  I know a lot of REAL families that don't do that.

[ttribe]

1 minute ago, Mystery Meat said:

No, I just don't think the people who are so upset by it are mad for any other reason then I gored one of their sacred cows.

Also, I think there is plenty of evidence to infer that you are offended (your heated and vehement response, for example, is evidence).

Likewise, I think there is evidence to indicate his purpose for mentioning his own family.

[eyeroll] Carry on.

For the record (and I am the sole expert on what is going on inside my head), I am neither "offended" nor "mad for any other reason then (sic) [you] gored one of [my] sacred cows."  I objected to your criticism of a specific poster and his/her family situation.  That's it. Nothing more.

[Jeanne]

4 hours ago, Mystery Meat said:

Living prophets (not to mention past prophets) have declare homosexuality and SSM a sin. Were they also being audacious?

That is their right and their doctrine.  They can believe it and live it.  But that can't be forced on others and their right to be happy and secure families that don't hurt anyone else. 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I'm having a hard time following what you're trying to say. Could you clarify?

If I'm misreading this part of your post, please let me know.

I have one question- How has SSM destroyed your family?

 

If I may...he did not say his family, but, "The Family". 

[HappyJackWagon]

20 hours ago, Mystery Meat said:

Fortunately, my family remains untouched, thus far. But it is destroying the family, by creating an impostor family unit or counterfeit family unit that is contrary to the laws of God. In a family with parents of the same gender, there is no continuation in the next life and will be forceably broken as such are not divinely sanctioned. The more people who believe such marriages are okay, the more harm that can potentially be done to the families of our society, not just here, but in the eternities.

Ok. Good. I was worried.

Just to be clear, you are stating that SSM has not destroyed your family?

But other families may not be as strong so I assume other families are being destroyed by SSM. Do you have any examples?

 

[HappyJackWagon]

13 hours ago, Pa Pa said:

If I may...he did not say his family, but, "The Family". 

Oh. "THE Family".

I'm curious how that happens. It hasn't affected his family directly. It hasn't affected my family negatively in any way. Has it affected yours?

I'm trying to understand how saying that SSM destroys the family is a real thing and not some form of fear mongering. Please help me understand how families are being destroyed.

Edited May 25, 2016 by HappyJackWagon

[stemelbow]

Well kudos to Rock 'n Roll for just up and leaving this conversation without any fanfare.  I admit, I find it completely asinine to treat people like Mystery Meat did.  I spoke up in hopes to point out uncivil behavior so we can all move forward and avoid the unnecessary rudeness.  I assumed Mystery meat was going to be reasonable enough to discuss it, reasonably.  But it doesn't seem so. 

 It only got worse, so what was the point?  Let's move on. 

[Mystery Meat]

35 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Ok. Good. I was worried.

Just to be clear, you are stating that SSM has not destroyed your family?

But other families may not be as strong so I assume other families are being destroyed by SSM. Do you have any examples?

 

Any family that embraces, justifies and tolerates sin is weakened and may ultimately be dissolved in the eternities. SSM and homosexual relations are an example of sin. If you can think of any such family, examples have been provided in this thread, then you will have the examples you need.

[Mystery Meat]

9 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Well kudos to Rock 'n Roll for just up and leaving this conversation without any fanfare.  I admit, I find it completely asinine to treat people like Mystery Meat did.  I spoke up in hopes to point out uncivil behavior so we can all move forward and avoid the unnecessary rudeness.  I assumed Mystery meat was going to be reasonable enough to discuss it, reasonably.  But it doesn't seem so. 

 It only got worse, so what was the point?  Let's move on. 

I don't think it is unreasonable to call out sin for what it is. It is unreasonable to believe any of us can embrace or justify any type of sin, no matter its particular variety or flavor, and not expect it to weaken us individually, collectively or our families. Sin, whether it be dishonesty, adultery, fornication, loud laughter, breaking the Sabbath, anger, or, yes, ssm/homosexual sex, weakens us and our families when we tolerate it, or worse when we all out embrace and celebrate it. There are no exceptions to this. To think otherwise would mean you are trying to make a liar out of God.

[Mystery Meat]

For all of the crap those who think there is no sin in SSM/Homosexual sex have been giving me, you have yet to refute my underlying point (as encapsulated in my two most recent posts from this morning). I can only assume that is because in order to do so you have to admit that what really bothers you is that I believe SSM/Homosexual sex is a sin and that embracing it weakens and may have the eternal effect of destroying families.

Would you rather I be more passive aggressive next time?

[HappyJackWagon]

11 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

Any family that embraces, justifies and tolerates sin is weakened and may ultimately be dissolved in the eternities. SSM and homosexual relations are an example of sin. If you can think of any such family, examples have been provided in this thread, then you will have the examples you need.

So you're saying SSM doesn't destroy families in this life but in the eternities? I think I'm understanding you better. So would a more proper way to state it be something like "SSM destroys eternal families", instead of implying they destroy families in the here and now?

[jkwilliams]

I was just thinking about when my sister converted to Judaism while I was on my mission. When I was set apart for my mission, my stake president promised that my family would be brought closer together and that my brother and sister would be drawn back toward the Lord and the church because of my faithful service. I felt like I must not have served faithfully enough because my sister was not only formally rejecting the church, she was rejecting Christ. I told my mission president how upset I was, and he suggested I write a letter to her explaining how I felt and "calling her to repentance," essentially. I started writing the letter, but I realized that, since she had met her fiance, my sister was happier than she had been in a while, and she was doing really well. I felt ashamed that I had been tempted to condemn, to "decry sin," and all that. Instead, I wrote her a letter explaining that I was sorry I couldn't be at the wedding, but I was glad she had found someone to be happy with and spend the rest of her life with. The bad feelings went away, and I prayed for forgiveness for having been so judgmental.

If I had sent a letter decrying her leaving the church, would that have strengthened my family or weakened it? If one of my children were gay and decided to get married, would it strengthen or weaken our family if I were to decry his or her sin and refuse to accept their marriage and place in our family? Or would it strengthen our family if I were to tell that child that I loved him or her, no matter what, even if I disagreed with the decision to marry? FWIW, none of my six children are gay, but if I were faced with such a situation, I would certainly encourage my child to marry rather than live in a string of uncommitted relationships. 

And it's also silly to say that disavowing gay marriage in general is not the same as disavowing a particular gay marriage. That's like saying, "Drinking alcohol is against the Word of Wisdom, unless it's Guinness."

Edited May 25, 2016 by jkwilliams

[HappyJackWagon]

6 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

For all of the crap those who think there is no sin in SSM/Homosexual sex have been giving me, you have yet to refute my underlying point (as encapsulated in my two most recent posts from this morning). I can only assume that is because in order to do so you have to admit that what really bothers you is that I believe SSM/Homosexual sex is a sin and that embracing it weakens and may have the eternal effect of destroying families.

Would you rather I be more passive aggressive next time?

1- You're arguing that no one has attempted to refute the point of your posts within the past 10 minutes. Does that seem like a reasonable complaint? Maybe you should allow a few more minutes so people have time to see your posts and respond.

2- No. I much prefer that you state things exactly as you believe. While I don't agree, I think it takes courage to say exactly what you mean without trying to sugar coat. It allows me to see where you are really coming from. Again, I don't agree, but I respect the honesty.

[jkwilliams]

6 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

For all of the crap those who think there is no sin in SSM/Homosexual sex have been giving me, you have yet to refute my underlying point (as encapsulated in my two most recent posts from this morning). I can only assume that is because in order to do so you have to admit that what really bothers you is that I believe SSM/Homosexual sex is a sin and that embracing it weakens and may have the eternal effect of destroying families.

Would you rather I be more passive aggressive next time?

The church teaches that homosexual behavior is sinful, and same-sex marriage in particular is apostasy. I don't know why you think that our disagreement is because you accept the church's teachings. My issue with you is your use of hyperbole and your unfortunate willingness to delve into the state of someone else's family situation.

[Mystery Meat]

1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said:

So you're saying SSM doesn't destroy families in this life but in the eternities? I think I'm understanding you better. So would a more proper way to state it be something like "SSM destroys eternal families", instead of implying they destroy families in the here and now?

I don't think you can destroy families in the eternities, without first destroying them here. Perhaps the confusion arises when we hear the word destroy we think of big, terrible events, such as divorce in the case of families, but the destruction I am talking about is much more pernicious and subtle. Yes, the destruction lays the framework for an eternal destruction, but I believe there is destruction now (even if not final and can be undone thanks to repentance and the atonement) in so much as families submit themselves to the will of the adversary.

[Mystery Meat]

7 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I was just thinking about when my sister converted to Judaism. It was while I was on my mission. When I was set apart for my mission, my stake president promised that my family would be brought closer together and that my brother and sister would be drawn back toward the Lord and the church because of my faithful service. I felt like I must not have served faithfully enough because my sister was not only formally rejecting the church, she was rejecting Christ. I told my mission president how upset I was, and he suggested I write a letter to her explaining how I felt and "calling her to repentance," essentially. I started writing the letter, but I realized that, since she had met her fiance, my sister was happier than she had been in a while, and she was doing really well. I felt ashamed that I had been tempted to condemn, to "decry sin," and all that. Instead, I wrote her a letter explaining that I was sorry I couldn't be at the wedding, but I was glad she had found someone to be happy with and spend the rest of her life with. The bad feelings went away, and I prayed for forgiveness for having been so judgmental.

If I had sent a letter decrying her leaving the church, would that have strengthened my family or weakened it? If one of my children were gay and decided to get married, would it strengthen or weaken our family if I were to decry his or her sin and refuse to accept their marriage and place in our family? Or would it strengthen our family if I were to tell that child that I loved him or her, no matter what, even if I disagreed with the decision to marry? FWIW, none of my six children are gay, but if I were faced with such a situation, I would certainly encourage my child to marry rather than live in a string of uncommitted relationships. 

And it's also silly to say that disavowing gay marriage in general is not the same as disavowing a particular gay marriage. That's like saying, "Drinking alcohol is against the Word of Wisdom, unless it's Guinness."

I would never recommend any of the disavowing actions you highlighted, as that would clearly be destructive. On the other hand I do not believe it is okay to embrace sin either. Love is good. Expressions of such love are always appropriate as far as I am concerned. Condoning sin is not.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Mystery Meat

[HappyJackWagon]

4 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

I don't think you can destroy families in the eternities, without first destroying them here. Perhaps the confusion arises when we hear the word destroy we think of big, terrible events, such as divorce in the case of families, but the destruction I am talking about is much more pernicious and subtle. Yes, the destruction lays the framework for an eternal destruction, but I believe there is destruction now (even if not final and can be undone thanks to repentance and the atonement) in so much as families submit themselves to the will of the adversary.

You're not being very consistent.

I have asked how families are being destroyed and you answered that it is a destruction in the eternities. Now you're saying its also in this life, yet you haven't described how families are destroyed in this life because SSM exists. We've established it hasn't destroyed your family or mine. How is it destroying families? Please be specific?

[jkwilliams]

5 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

I would never recommend any of the disavowing actions you highlighted, as that would clearly be destructive. On the other hand I do not believe it is okay to embrace sin either. Love is good. Expressions of such love are always appropriate as far as I am concerned. Condoning sin is not.

How is that more or less destructive than "disavowing" a family member's choice to enter into a same-sex marriage? You seem to believe that acceptance of the reality of a situation is the same as embracing and condoning it. I have a friend whose mother is, to put it mildly, a very toxic personality. For the longest time he tried to improve the relationship and help his mother become less, well, crazy. In the end, he had to accept that she is who she is, and he can't change that. That's not the same as embracing or condoning her behavior.

[Mystery Meat]

3 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

You're not being very consistent.

I have asked how families are being destroyed and you answered that it is a destruction in the eternities. Now you're saying its also in this life, yet you haven't described how families are destroyed in this life because SSM exists. We've established it hasn't destroyed your family or mine. How is it destroying families? Please be specific?

I am being perfectly consistent. There is no destruction in the eternities if there isn't some action that takes place in the here and now which causes the destruction. When a family, any family, be it yours, mine, or someone else's condones sin, celebrates it, embraces it and fails to teach and warn of its consequences, that family is on the path to destruction as a unit, and as individuals, is weakened by the endorsement in this life. This is precisely because they have separated themselves from the Spirit and rejected eternal truths.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Mystery Meat

[HappyJackWagon]

1 minute ago, Mystery Meat said:

I am being perfectly consistent. There is no destruction in the eternities if there isn't some action that takes place in the here and now which causes the destruction. When a family, any family, be it yours, mine, or someone else's condones sin, celebrates it, embraces it and fails to teach and warn of its consequences, that family is on the path to destruction as a unit, and as individuals, is weakened by the endorsement in this life. This is precisely because they have separated themselves from the Spirit and rejected eternal truths.

OK- I follow your logic for how SSM could destroy a family in the eternities but that still doesn't address how families are destroyed in this life. Do you see the difference?

[Mystery Meat]

12 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

How is that more or less destructive than "disavowing" a family member's choice to enter into a same-sex marriage? You seem to believe that acceptance of the reality of a situation is the same as embracing and condoning it. I have a friend whose mother is, to put it mildly, a very toxic personality. For the longest time he tried to improve the relationship and help his mother become less, well, crazy. In the end, he had to accept that she is who she is, and he can't change that. That's not the same as embracing or condoning her behavior.

True. My comments are limited to the actual embracing of sin. I would never exclude a gay family member. But I would make sure my family, especially my children, know that SSM is not okay and the homosexual sex is a sin. I would likewise make sure they knew that we love them despite the sin and treat them with respect and compassion. I assumed that was made clear previously. Apparently it was not. For that, I take full responsibility.

Also, if my family member who is gay (this has actually come up before) ask if I support them in their SSM/homosexual relationship, I would say I love them as family, but that I believe what they are doing is sinful. So far, that has been understood and respected.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Mystery Meat

[Mystery Meat]

1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said:

OK- I follow your logic for how SSM could destroy a family in the eternities but that still doesn't address how families are destroyed in this life. Do you see the difference?

No. 

Formula for Being Destroyed Now:

- Embrace Sin

- Lose Spirit

- Don't Repent

- Become subject to Satan (in this life)

This results in continuing destruction of the family. That destruction is completed in the next life, if the Atonement is not utilized.

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Mystery Meat said:

True. My comments are limited to the actual embracing of sin. I would never exclude a gay family member. But I would make sure my family, especially my children, that SSM is not okay and the homosexual sex is a sin. I would likewise make sure they knew that we love them despite the sin and treat them with respect and compassion. I assumed that was made clear previously. Apparently it was not. For that, I take full responsibility.

I have a gay cousin, and he told me that when he came out, his mother was very harsh with him both in saying that he had deliberately chosen evil, that his desires were not natural and were perverted. She really let him have it, and they didn't speak for around 2 years, I think. He finally reached out to her to try and rebuild the relationship, and she ended up apologizing for condemning him like that. Everyone in the family knows she and most of our extended LDS family believe that homosexuality is a sin, but they don't let it get in the way of having a loving and supportive relationship. My aunt attended her son's same-sex wedding. I don't believe that means she's supporting apostasy.

Again, I think this policy change was poorly thought out and caused some very predictable problems. I felt really bad for Elder Christofferson for having to explain this policy after he had gone out of his way to express acceptance for his brother in the church. It really was the game-changer for me because, before then, I never saw the church go out of its way to hurt children and families. I know most people here disagree with my assessment, but it's how I feel. I told my wife I no longer felt I could go to church meetings in good conscience but would limit myself to special occasions, such as the funeral I attended a couple of weeks ago.

[Mystery Meat]

1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

I have a gay cousin, and he told me that when he came out, his mother was very harsh with him both in saying that he had deliberately chosen evil, that his desires were not natural and were perverted. She really let him have it, and they didn't speak for around 2 years, I think. He finally reached out to her to try and rebuild the relationship, and she ended up apologizing for condemning him like that. Everyone in the family knows she and most of our extended LDS family believe that homosexuality is a sin, but they don't let it get in the way of having a loving and supportive relationship. My aunt attended her son's same-sex wedding. I don't believe that means she's supporting apostasy.

Again, I think this policy change was poorly thought out and caused some very predictable problems. I felt really bad for Elder Christofferson for having to explain this policy after he had gone out of his way to express acceptance for his brother in the church. It really was the game-changer for me because, before then, I never saw the church go out of its way to hurt children and families. I know most people here disagree with my assessment, but it's how I feel. I told my wife I no longer felt I could go to church meetings in good conscience but would limit myself to special occasions, such as the funeral I attended a couple of weeks ago.

We will have to agree to disagree on the effect of the policy, as I believe (and know from interactions) that the intent was to help these families and children. I also think the actual outcome will be to help them as well.

[HappyJackWagon]

17 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

No. 

Formula for Being Destroyed Now:

- Embrace Sin

- Lose Spirit

- Don't Repent

- Become subject to Satan (in this life)

This results in continuing destruction of the family. That destruction is completed in the next life, if the Atonement is not utilized.

1- How does acknowledging the fact that SSM exists in society constitute "embracing sin". Or how does acknowledging a SSM of a sibling or cousin or whatever embrace sin and therefore destroy the family eternally?

2- What you seem to be describing is that those who engage in SSM are sinning and therefore will not be an eternal family. OK. But how does that destroy others who simply show love and compassion to all family members, including those who are SSM?

You are not describing how someone else's SSM destroys other peoples families. Are SSM causing divorces of others? Infidelity among others? Financial ruin? Family abandonment? How does it destroy others? Seriously, this makes NO sense and you haven't explained it at all. Does unmarried cohabitation destroy other peoples marriages? How does the "sin" of another person destroy me or my family?

Edited May 25, 2016 by HappyJackWagon