Overcoming Pornography Addition

[cinepro]

Kevin, I generally agree with what you've mentioned and brought up about addiction and porn addiction in particular. My only concerns is that by focusing on porn addiction, we are only talking about 10-15% of the general population's experience with porn. If there are going to be a discussion of the repercussions, concerns, and overall lessons of those who are exposed to porn I don't think focusing solely on the narrative of addiction will necessarily be enough. And the addiction model may be inappropriate to give to a mixed audience of people who may or may not have and addiction or the loved ones who may or might not have a relationship with an addict.

 

That's my main concern. We, in the church in general, have a dichotomous view about pornography....either you're not using or you have an addiction and are trapped in cycles of terrible sin. And the spouses/loved ones of someone who viewed porn (but aren't addicts) aren't likely to be co-dependent. The middle area of experience (which is also the majority of experience) are lacking....and this does cause problems....both in how we react to porn use and how those who have used porn understand and change their behaviors.

 

ARP and addiction models are great....when there is an addiction. The ARP manual in general use can be good for just understanding the utility of the atonement. But I feel that focusing solely of porn within the realm of addiction is limiting.

 

With luv,

BD

 

 

I say this every time the subject comes up:  I am so glad I am not tasked with solving the problem of pornography addiction (or "addiction") in the Church. 

 

It's easy to promote what appears to be a "rational" approach that involves tolerance for a non-addictive middle ground, but there is no such thing from a gospel point of view; after all, the Lord can't look upon sin "with the least degree of allowance."  But I don't think the current method of dealing with the problem is going to work, so for now it's a problem without a solution.

[why me]

 

 

It's easy to promote what appears to be a "rational" approach that involves tolerance for a non-addictive middle ground, but there is no such thing from a gospel point of view; after all, the Lord can't look upon sin "with the least degree of allowance."

I think that the lord is rather merciful when it comes to porn addiction. Let me put it this way: since porn imaging is everywhere in US society and since sexual imaging is also everywhere in US society, I do think that porn addiction is a natural result. Instead of focusing on porn addiction, one should begin to chip away at the root of the porn probem: sexual commodification. It sells in a market society which is basically based on profit before people. Not to mention that porn imaging in adverts and in the media. Not to mention music videos which seem to exhibit much sexuality.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/media-network/media-network-blog/2014/jan/11/media-porn-advertising-marketing

 

Porn makes up 3 percent of the US GNP.

[Mormonmaniac]

I think that the lord is rather merciful when it comes to porn addiction. Let me put it this way: since porn imaging is everywhere in US society and since sexual imaging is also everywhere in US society, I do think that porn addiction is a natural result. Instead of focusing on porn addiction, one should begin to chip away at the root of the porn probem: sexual commodification. It sells in a market society which is basically based on profit before people. Not to mention that porn imaging in adverts and in the media. Not to mention music videos which seem to exhibit much sexuality.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/media-network/media-network-blog/2014/jan/11/media-porn-advertising-marketing

 

Porn makes up 3 percent of the US GNP.

I am all in favor of making pornography and possession of it a criminal offense. Its obvious that pornography leads to many distasteful results, some of which are downright despicable in society.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Mormonmaniac

[VideoGameJunkie]

Mormonmaniac, you'll have to lock up most of the population in prison then, including Mormon men.

[pogi]

Even in your example of the poor man who couldn't give up porn for his marriage....I think of the cultural and interpersonal relational factors that probably played into that. For example, for many couples outside of the church, twice a month isn't that big of a deal. Some may watch it together. This wouldn't have ended the marriage. But my guess is that there were problems with hiding, lying, sneaking it, etc. This would effect the quality of the relationship. He may have avoided divulging info because how women in the church are taught about porn SUCKS so she may have "freaked out" and frankly had some small bit of trauma from the experience. This shoves it underground. When it's found she feels more and more detached and betrayed by her husband. He feels worse.....he's probably watched porn since his early teens and self-sooths with it, having underdeveloped coping tools to stress. The attachment between the wife is floundering....he feels lonely and isolated...and wala, porn comes back out, reasserting the cycle. Porn became the symobol for everything wrong in their marriage. 

 

Can you clarify this for me, are you suggesting that this man was likely not addicted to pornography, but porn is simply the symbol for everything wrong?  Or are you suggesting that the cultural stigma of pornography is responsible in part for turning a mild "self-soothing" mechanism into a full blown addiction?

 

Perhaps this couple did use porn as the symbol for all of their problems, and perhaps the stigma did lead up to the divorce in some way, but that is besides the point.  The significant indicator here is that the man believed that he could have saved the marriage (something he desperately wanted to do) by giving up porn (something he could not do).  So, whatever the reasons leading up to the divorce, it is the perception that the divorce was avoidable by stopping porn is what gives us significant insight into the severity of the problem. 

 

To me, regardless of the factors that play into the behavior (cultural and interpersonal factors, underdeveloped coping skills, etc.) when the behavior becomes uncontrollable to the point where a person continues to choose the behavior despite significant harmful consequences, it is an addiction in my book.  

 

I am not being a contrarian just for the sake of being a contrarian, but I respect your opinion and perspective and am interested in your thoughts on the issue.

 

My only concerns is that by focusing on porn addiction, we are only talking about 10-15% of the general population's experience with porn. If there are going to be a discussion of the repercussions, concerns, and overall lessons of those who are exposed to porn I don't think focusing solely on the narrative of addiction will necessarily be enough.

 

I would argue that those numbers are far higher but there is no way to prove that.  Only using subjective questionnaires and no real guidelines for diagnosis, with the DSM not even recognizing the disease, it is incredibly difficult to come up with actual numbers.  

 

That's my main concern. We, in the church in general, have a dichotomous view about pornography....either you're not using or you have an addiction and are trapped in cycles of terrible sin. And the spouses/loved ones of someone who viewed porn (but aren't addicts) aren't likely to be co-dependent. The middle area of experience (which is also the majority of experience) are lacking....and this does cause problems....both in how we react to porn use and how those who have used porn understand and change their behaviors.

 

I actually don't hear the brethren talk much about addiction recovery (I actually wish that they would learn and teach more about it - I think it would soften their tone).  They take more of a preventative approach it seems, using scare tactics to keep youth away.  Unfortunately it doesn't work and only adds to the shame as tietjens mentioned.  I understand that they are well meaning, but there is a better way.  Most bishops are ill-equipped as well.

 

I think the best approach is for the brethren to teach that (and I will repeat myself here) while pornography is wrong, such curiosity is completely healthy and normal but should not be allowed to govern our behavior, that we are not a bad people for being sexually attracted to the opposite sex, that it is ok to be tempted and may make mistakes but should always strive to do better in addressing the roots of the habit or addiction, and should seek the forgiveness of an understanding and merciful God, and seek professional help where needed.  The sisters need to hear from the brethren that their husbands are not evil men and that their actions do not amount to infidelity.  They need to understand that pornography use is not related to the imperfection or lack of attraction of the spouse.  Both spouses need to practice patience, concern, and empathy as they work through their issues with the support of their families and others. 

Edited April 2, 2015 by pogi

[MorningStar]

Years ago I went to a fireside put on my LDS Social Services and the lady who spoke to us said it was too bad our quorums couldn't be more of a support group, but we're not in a place yet where we won't judge each other, so they run support groups.  We had an investigator come to our ward and when the lesson was about pornography, he said, "I've struggled with that."  My husband said it was refreshing rather than this awkward, "Let's all sit here quietly and try our best to pretend we've never done such a disgusting thing."

 

People talk openly about battles with alcohol, drugs, etc., but pornography is kept a secret.  And secrets drive the behavior even more! 

[why me]

I am all in favor of making pornography and possession of it a criminal offense. Its obvious that pornography leads to many distasteful results, some of which are downright despicable in society.

This will never happen. Free enterprise is rather important in the USA. And porn makes up quite a huge percentage of GNP not to mention millions and millions of tax dollars for california. However, because of more stringent laws, the porn industry is heading for nevada. Plus, there are many porn companies in europe, mainly in the east, such as the czek republic.

 

Also, there are different versions of porn. Some companies do offer a more romantic type of porn and an interesting club community. They find many women from the czeck republic, russia and the usa. Very young and beautiful. Such is freedom of expression. Billions of dollars are made by the porn industry and taxes are paid. .

[Ahab]

Might I suggest that there are others out there and in here who are probably still struggling and could use your support by talking about it.

My support for leaving pornography in the past would not involve talking about it, though. My support can be condensed into a very simple message, basically saying to leave it behind. That it's not love you are looking at when you look at porn. That it's not good to see other people doing those things. Sexual relations between 2 people is or at least should be a holy (set apart) thing that is not open to an audience and within the bounds our Lord has set for that act that we refer to as "sexual relations", strictly between a man and a woman who are lawfully wed to each other as husband and wife.

So I think that instead of talking about porn and how to avoid it (just avoid it) we should be talking about the proper alternative. What is good, instead of talking about what is bad.

Once people know what the good stuff is that should then help them to avoid a bad and grossly inferior alternative.

That is the opposite of what needs to happen. We NEED to talk about it, acknowledge it, examine it, give and receive support for it, remove the stigma that makes people like you uncomfortable. There is no need to feel uncomfortable about it, we are not encouraging bad behavior, but supporting good behavior. In other words we are not talking or thinking about "bad things" when we are talking about addiction recovery. We need to stop avoiding it, pretending like it will just go away if we simply "stop thinking about it". Avoiding the issue will only make it stronger.

NO !!!

Talking about anything puts the focus on whatever you are talking about, so even mentioning the word "porn" puts an idea in someone's mind that is whatever they think of as "porn". We men are very visual, don't ya know, so mentioning a word like "porn" triggers mental images of porn to those who hear it that involve what they think of and have seen that they associate with "porn".

So for me it brings back to my mind some images that I'd rather not think about anymore. Images that I had already stopped thinking about and had gotten out of my mind, at least consciously, until I started paying attention to some people who were talking about "porn". Images that I'd like to stop thinking about now, which I will start to stop thinking about when I finish this post. I will be leaving all of this behind me and hope that you got at least the gist of my message about "porn".

It is not worth thinking about.

My family growing up was very much like the system you suggest and encourage - a closed family system. We simply did not and could not talk about such things. That only acted to deepen the shame of it, making the problem worse. If my parents could have assured me that while pornography is wrong, such curiosity is completely healthy and normal, that I am not a bad person for being sexually attracted to the opposite sex, that it is ok to be tempted and that we are not expected to be perfect but will make mistakes and can easily be forgiven, perhaps my road to recovery could have been shortened significantly.

Also, it is incredibly helpful to know that you are not alone.

I talked and still talk to my boys about how wonderful a good marriage is and should be, and I've also touched on the point that porn is a lousy alternative. And my continued focus with them will be to talk about how sacred and holy their sexual relationships should be, and with only their wives, without even mentioning the word "porn" anymore. Edited April 1, 2015 by Ahab

[cinepro]

I talked and still talk to my boys about how wonderful a good marriage is and should be, and I've also touched on the point that porn is a lousy alternative. And my continued focus with them will be to talk about how sacred and holy their sexual relationships should be, and with only their wives, without even mentioning the word "porn" anymore.

 

Speaking of conversations about pornography, I'm looking forward to having this one with my future sons-in-law!

 

Discussing Pornography with Your Future Son-in-Law

Edited April 1, 2015 by cinepro

[Buckeye]

 

Speaking of conversations about pornography, I'm looking forward to having this one with my future sons-in-law!

 

Discussing Pornography with Your Future Son-in-Law

 

Well, that's one way to encourage your daughter to elope.

[diamondintherough]

Ahab - I agree.  Thank you for sharing that.  Although I understand that people need support and to know they're not alone, where you put your focus/energy makes a difference and can either help or hinder. 

[tietjens]

The door is open whenever you want to take the next step (it seems to me you are saying you are ready to come back, that nothing is stopping you are your end, my apologies if I am wrong, I certainly don't want to add unnecessary pressure).

 

Thank your for the encouragement. I think I will try returning. I want to. I have benefitted from reading various posts on this subject, was especially struck by this poster who said......

 

 

 

In The Recovery Zone, Carnes also talks about the grievance story, which is also a huge part of any addiction. Grievances nuture resentments and a consequent sense of entitlement.

Recovery always involves dismantling the grievance story. He also explains that the difference between heroes and villains is that heroes face their fears and villains nurture their grievances.

 

Addicts do tend to harbor and hold grievances. I know I have. Someone in one of my groups an LDS person said "it's not that your grievances are not justified since many times they are, it's that they are not helpful." I have tried to remember this and live accordingly.

[pogi]

My support can be condensed into a very simple message, basically saying to leave it behind.

 

That reminds me of this very funny skit by Bob Newhart:

 

https://youtu.be/Ow0lr63y4Mw

 

It is obvious that this approach is neither supportive nor helpful, but it is at least a step up from showing your children the makings of a porn movie as a preventative or curative measure. 

 

So I think that instead of talking about porn and how to avoid it (just avoid it) we should be talking about the proper alternative. What is good, instead of talking about what is bad.

 

I actually agree with this to a point.  The purpose of support groups and discussion is not to talk about or focus on "what is bad" but rather to talk about the steps of recovery - what is working, what is not working and why.  "Just avoid it" does not work.  

 

I am sorry that just hearing or reading the P word is a trigger for you.  That makes it difficult for sure, but that is not the case for most addicts that I have come in contact with.  

 

I don't doubt that you are a good father Ahab, and I don't want to criticize your approach, so I only say this as an alternative perspective - it is my understanding (and perhaps BlueDreams can correct me if I am wrong) that the literature suggests that open, honest and frank discussions with your children regarding, sex, drugs, porn, etc. is the most effective approach.  No beating around the bush.  Saying "alcohol" is not going to make your kid alcoholic any more than saying "porn" is going to make them an addict.  I think many parents are afraid of talking to their children about it out of fear that it might peak their curiosity.  Trust me, their curiosity is already peaked and now they need a frank and open discussion about it.  Not so much a discussion about what is "bad" about it, but simply that they will likely encounter it and what to do when they do.  They need to know that you are safe to approach and will not shame them for it.  They need to not be afraid to come to you with questions, concerns or struggles that they might be experiencing.  They need to know that you will not hush them when they say the word "porn".

Edited April 1, 2015 by pogi

[Mormonmaniac]

I started a poll topic on pornography viewing as a way to come up with a generalized stat by users but it was locked down abruptly. Why was it but not this thread? Did it hit too close to home?

[The Nehor]

Speaking of conversations about pornography, I'm looking forward to having this one with my future sons-in-law!

 Discussing Pornography with Your Future Son-in-Law

How that interview would begin and end:

"Alright, I am still going to marry your daughter but I have no intention of associating with you ever again outside of social niceties. You are creepy and disturbing. I no longer want your blessing on this marriage. Bye."

[The Nehor]

NO !!!

Talking about anything puts the focus on whatever you are talking about, so even mentioning the word "porn" puts an idea in someone's mind that is whatever they think of as "porn". We men are very visual, don't ya know, so mentioning a word like "porn" triggers mental images of porn to those who hear it that involve what they think of and have seen that they associate with "porn".

So for me it brings back to my mind some images that I'd rather not think about anymore. Images that I had already stopped thinking about and had gotten out of my mind, at least consciously, until I started paying attention to some people who were talking about "porn". Images that I'd like to stop thinking about now, which I will start to stop thinking about when I finish this post. I will be leaving all of this behind me and hope that you got at least the gist of my message about "porn".

Please do not feel empowered to speak for the entire male gender on this matter. I can hear and even say the word porn without my mind jumping to erotic imagery. Edited April 1, 2015 by The Nehor

[Ahab]

The purpose of support groups and discussion is not to talk about or focus on "what is bad" but rather to talk about the steps of recovery - what is working, what is not working and why. "Just avoid it" does not work.

I can hear the discussion in my head now.

Porn viewer: I tried the "just avoid it" approach and it just does not work.

Anti-porn advocate: What do you mean avoiding it does not work??? I meant turn away from it when you see it. Don't keep looking at it. If some porn image pops up on your computer screen delete it immediately or just restart your computer. Whatever it takes to stop yourself from looking at porn when you see it. What do you mean avoiding it does not work???

Porn addict: I mean avoiding it doesn't work because I keep looking at it. I mean I can't avoid it.

Anti-porn advocate: That's not true. You can avoid continuing to look at it by just turning away from it when you see it. Even if an image pops up unexpectedly you do have the power to stop looking at it if you really want to avoid looking at it. You control your own mind. You control your own eyes. The idea that you can't avoid it is a false idea and you can avoid it if you want to avoid it.

Porn addict: If that's true then I suppose that means I don't really want to avoid it.

Anti-porn advocate: Then that's different. I thought you already understood that it should be avoided.

Porn addict: No, I suppose I don't understand why you and all of the other anti-porn advocates are suggesting that I should avoid porn. Why do you think porn is bad?

Anti-porn advocate: And here is where I would start to talk about how sexual relationships should be holy (set apart) and strictly between a husband and his wife, with no (other) audience watching. And how the good stuff is all about love, and not lust.

I am sorry that just hearing or reading the P word is a trigger for you. That makes it difficult for sure, but that is not the case for most addicts that I have come in contact with.

So what do you think they think of when they hear the word "porn"?

I don't doubt that you are a good father Ahab, and I don't want to criticize your approach, so I only say this as an alternative perspective - it is my understanding (and perhaps BlueDreams can correct me if I am wrong) that the literature suggests that open, honest and frank discussions with your children regarding, sex, drugs, porn, etc. is the most effective approach. No beating around the bush. Saying "alcohol" is not going to make your kid alcoholic any more than saying "porn" is going to make them an addict. I think many parents are afraid of talking to their children about it out of fear that it might peak their curiosity. Trust me, their curiosity is already peaked and now they need a frank and open discussion about it. [bold]Not so much a discussion about what is "bad" about it, but simply that they will likely encounter it and what to do when they do.[/bold]

A basic description of what porn is should suffice, along with my counsel to turn away from it.

They need to know that you are safe to approach and will not shame them for it. They need to not be afraid to come to you with questions, concerns or struggles that they might be experiencing. They need to know that you will not hush them when they say the word "porn".

They know all of that. They have learned through experience that they can talk to me about what they think or how they feel while knowing that my only intent is to help them know what I think and how I feel based on the relationship that I have with God. And that they can also go to God for his counsel as I do. Edited April 1, 2015 by Ahab

[Tacenda]

My support for leaving pornography in the past would not involve talking about it, though. My support can be condensed into a very simple message, basically saying to leave it behind. That it's not love you are looking at when you look at porn. That it's not good to see other people doing those things. Sexual relations between 2 people is or at least should be a holy (set apart) thing that is not open to an audience and within the bounds our Lord has set for that act that we refer to as "sexual relations", strictly between a man and a woman who are lawfully wed to each other as husband and wife.

So I think that instead of talking about porn and how to avoid it (just avoid it) we should be talking about the proper alternative. What is good, instead of talking about what is bad.

Once people know what the good stuff is that should then help them to avoid a bad and grossly inferior alternative.

NO !!!

Talking about anything puts the focus on whatever you are talking about, so even mentioning the word "porn" puts an idea in someone's mind that is whatever they think of as "porn". We men are very visual, don't ya know, so mentioning a word like "porn" triggers mental images of porn to those who hear it that involve what they think of and have seen that they associate with "porn".

So for me it brings back to my mind some images that I'd rather not think about anymore. Images that I had already stopped thinking about and had gotten out of my mind, at least consciously, until I started paying attention to some people who were talking about "porn". Images that I'd like to stop thinking about now, which I will start to stop thinking about when I finish this post. I will be leaving all of this behind me and hope that you got at least the gist of my message about "porn".

It is not worth thinking about.

I talked and still talk to my boys about how wonderful a good marriage is and should be, and I've also touched on the point that porn is a lousy alternative. And my continued focus with them will be to talk about how sacred and holy their sexual relationships should be, and with only their wives, without even mentioning the word "porn" anymore.

Well, tell the church to quit bringing it up then!

Ahab, you seem to be giving "porn" way too much power when you are afraid to use the word. We need to make porn a big joke!!

I was in charge of White Ribbon Week at a high school a few years ago. Can't remember what the sign said but the students signed a huge poster that said they were not going to look at porn. Hopefully it helped them make a good choice later, when it is placed before them, or when making a decision to view it.

[Ahab]

Please do not feel empowered to speak for the entire male gender on this matter. I can hear and even say the word porn without my mind jumping to erotic imagery.

That's what the word refers to, bro.

The public kind. Not the private stuff between husband and wife.

What do you think porn is if not that???

[The Nehor]

That's what the word refers to, bro.

The public kind. Not the private stuff between husband and wife.

What do you think porn is if not that???

The word list refers to intense sexual desire but I can also say that word without being consumed by lust. The ability to dissociate and discuss a concept without diving into it is not a rare superpower. When President Hinckley talked about avoiding pornography I did not have porn running through my head. I am guessing most listeners did not.

[Ahab]

Well, tell the church to quit bringing it up then!

Ahab, you seem to be giving "porn" way too much power when you are afraid to use the word. We need to make porn a big joke!!

I was in charge of White Ribbon Week at a high school a few years ago. Can't remember what the sign said but the students signed a huge poster that said they were not going to look at porn. Hopefully it helped them make a good choice later, when it is placed before them, or when making a decision to view it.

Porn is what it is, Tacenda.

The word porn means what it means.

So anytime anyone brings up the word porn the are talking about what porn is and those who know anything about what porn is knows they are talking about those images, even if only talking about text stories with people coming up with the images in their own heads.

And I take the Book of Mormon apology as an apology from our Church leaders. I know they are sorry to have to harrow up images and issues like this when they do it.

[Ahab]

The word list refers to intense sexual desire but I can also say that word without being consumed by lust.

I have an intense sexual desire for my wife and that is neither porn nor lust. Think about what porn really is.

The ability to dissociate and discuss a concept without diving into it is not a rare superpower. When President Hinckley talked about avoiding pornography I did not have porn running through my head. I am guessing most listeners did not.

Then I would say you and they didn't really see what he was talking about.

[The Nehor]

I have an intense sexual desire for my wife and that is neither porn nor lust. Think about what porn really is.

Then I would say you and they didn't really see what he was talking about.

Porn is erotic or occasionally fetishistic imagery created to stimulate sexual desire.

I would contend that you are in the minority if you were bringing into your head pornographic images when the prophet was speaking. If I am wrong then I am doubly glad I no longer have to go to Priesthood at the Church building because, to quote Sam the bald eagle: "You are all weirdos."

[pogi]

I can hear the discussion in my head now...

 

Ahab, I know you mean well, but you don't understand addiction at all.  To assume that you can cure addicts by convincing them that their behavior is bad is naive.  Do you really think that porn addicts don't know that it is bad and wrong behavior?  Do you really think that they don't want to stop?

 

They don't know how to stop.  Usually because they don't understand that porn is not the problem as much as it is a symptom of the problem.  While they try over and over to stop the symptom, the root of the disease will inevitably keep popping up undeterred.  Cutting off the head of a dandelion will not make it go away.  When I say "they don't know how to stop", obviously they know how to turn off a computer.  That is not the issue, the issue is that they have lost impulse control.  Their neuronal pathways, cerebral cortex and amygdala are literally damaged and don't function like they should.  Addiction is not simply a lack of will, it is an emotional, spiritual, and physical or biological/physiological disease. 

 

Telling me to avoid thinking about pink elephants only causes me to think more about pink elephants.  You can't just say "stop it", they need to learn new behaviors and coping mechanisms and find healing from old, unrelated wounds. 

 

you do have the power to stop looking at it if you really want to avoid looking at it. 

 

You see, that is precisely what differentiates addicts from normal functioning individuals - addicts are powerless to stop on their own.  In fact, that is the first step to recovery - admitting that you have become powerless. 

Edited April 2, 2015 by pogi

[Kevin Christensen]

Concerning codependence, 

 

Because the first sexual addiction recovery groups modeled themselves on Alcoholics Anonymous, both the groups and the researchers that studied them also adopted the model of codependence/co-addiction for partners developed by Lois Wilson.  However Steffens and Means have argued that in most cases the response of the partner is better understood in terms of trauma, rather than as co-addiction or co-dependence. 

We believe that the partners’s emotional and behavioral responses to living with a sex addict are better framed and understood as attempts to find safety and security following the most devastating of all traumas: the betrayal of trust.

Rather than believing …partners demonstrate the characteristics of addiction, we believe partners of sexual addicts engage in attempts to seek what they can no longer find: safety in unsafe relationships with sex addicts to whom they feel their deepest attachment bonds. 

(See Your Sexually Addicted Spouse by Steffens and Means, which is one of two books that I recommend to all the people I work with.)

 

This insight is important because healing from trauma calls for different treatment than for codependence.  Codependents are seeking control.  Trauma creates a need for safety.  Some of the symptoms are the same, but the underlying need for healing is quite different.

 

FWIW

 

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

Edited April 2, 2015 by Kevin Christensen