Do you have a loved one in addiction?

Bernard Gui · May 6, 2017

We had a very interesting and sometimes animated discussion on what some call pornography addiction.

There is no question, however, that people who have loved ones in addiction...substance or behavioral....have a tough time of it.

Some call this "tough time" co-dependency. That is not a derogatory word, but simply a term to describe the chaos addiction creates in other peoples' lives.

There are some common behaviors described by co-dependency....Denial, covering up, isolation, anger, depression, enabling.

Discovering a loved one is addicted can be debilitating. Fear is the most common reaction....

Quote

—Fear that our loved ones will never get better.

—Fear of the possibility that our loved ones may die physically as well as spiritually.

—Fear of the harm our loved ones might do to others around them, especially children.

—Physical weariness caused by sleeplessness, stress, and anxiety.

—Confusion about why our loved ones behave so irrationally and why nothing we say or do seems to make any difference.

—Loss of trust and confidence in our loved ones as a result of their lying, deception, and manipulation.

—Shame and hopelessness as we improperly assume responsibility for our loved ones’ choices.

—Anger that we have been betrayed and hurt by our loved ones.

—Loneliness and isolation as we try to keep our loved ones’ addictions a secret to protect others.

—Fear that baptismal and temple covenants may be irreparably broken and eternal family ties severed.

—Pain and hurt associated with a spouse’s physical or virtual infidelity.

—Bitterness over financial challenges as we deal with excessive spending, treatment programs, legal expenses, fines, or destruction of property.

—Fear that our loved ones’ continued addictions somehow reflect our own lack of faith or inability to access God’s help on their behalf.

—Fear of consequences resulting from our loved ones’ potential incarceration or other legal issues

Piggy-backing on the previous discussion in which a case was attempted to be made that somehow being faithful LDS makes one more susceptible to problems with pornography,

My questions are....

Do you think the above fears are exacerbated because of unique LDS beliefs? Are Mormons more likely to have co-dependency problems because of their religious beliefs?

Are there aspects of Mormon beliefs and practices that help alleviate the effects of co-dependency? Would you share your experiences?

I'm not interested in discussing whether or not co-dependency is a "recognized medical" issue.

I use the term simply as a convenience to describe the disruption caused by addiction in their loved ones' lives.

Edited May 6, 2017 by Bernard Gui

Bernard Gui · May 7, 2017

Would love to hear from you if you have thoughts on this.

Tacenda · May 7, 2017

Some know of my situation with my brother. I've tried to get help for him for years, and finally he agreed to go to rehab. He finished over a month ago and he's living with me. He has since relapsed already, and as I speak he probably has again since he hasn't shown up this weekend and I've no idea where he is. He's done this twice and admitted that he relapsed and how awful he felt for it. But now I suspect he is doing it again.

I don't know what to do because I've told him he needs to come home each night. He hasn't lived up to this, and now I guess I need to hold to it. But still can't bear throwing him onto the streets, shoot!

I think I've aged 10 years over it. And gotten his other siblings involved monetarily too, for the rehab. It wasn't that much, but it sure isn't fun to tell them what he's doing now. I thought for sure this was going to stick, he was so sure.

I did listen to an interesting podcast that mentioned alcoholism tends to run high for LDS. Because they tend to want to get drunk vs. be social drinkers. My LDS brother never was a social drinker, it was drink till you get drunk for him. I believe it's the link below where it mentions the phenomenon.

http://www.mormonstories.org/253-the-lds-church-and-mental-health-with-dr-david-christian/

rpn · May 7, 2017

I don't think that co-dependency is at all related to "having a tough time with it". Nor do I think that fear of _________________ is the reason for having a hard time, or codependency.

Co-dependency happens when someone acts in ways that make them complicit in the addiction. It usually includes enabling, but can also include feeling better about themselves because they stick with it, or other actions or non-actions.

I also don't think it is unhealthy to be concerned about a loved one's progress on their path to eternal life. It is unhealthy and unrighteous to force the gospel on others or withhold necessary and non-damaging love or help because of bad choices.

rpn · May 7, 2017

Tacenda, the key to maintaining sobriety is to do a 12 step meeting every day (which you will meet people and identify a sponsor --- whom they can call before they take a drink --- and hear others who have managed hard things to maintain sobriety). I'd require that as a condition of living with me. Also there is relatively new medication for alcoholics that reduces and/or eliminates the physical cravings for alcohol. If your brother hasn't talked with a dr who is up to the minute current in alcolhol medications, you might help him find one. (They can be costly, and they can have side effects. But people who determined to stay sober do benefit from them. (Many keep thinking they can do it if they chose to, though.)

Tacenda · May 7, 2017

3 hours ago, rpn said:

Tacenda, the key to maintaining sobriety is to do a 12 step meeting every day (which you will meet people and identify a sponsor --- whom they can call before they take a drink --- and hear others who have managed hard things to maintain sobriety). I'd require that as a condition of living with me. Also there is relatively new medication for alcoholics that reduces and/or eliminates the physical cravings for alcohol. If your brother hasn't talked with a dr who is up to the minute current in alcolhol medications, you might help him find one. (They can be costly, and they can have side effects. But people who determined to stay sober do benefit from them. (Many keep thinking they can do it if they chose to, though.)

Great idea! He was going to the meetings almost every day but quit going as much. I will look into that medication, thank you!

bsjkki · May 8, 2017

deleted

Edited May 8, 2017 by bsjkki

Tacenda · May 8, 2017

On 5/6/2017 at 1:04 PM, Bernard Gui said:

We had a very interesting and sometimes animated discussion on what some call pornography addiction.

There is no question, however, that people who have loved ones in addiction...substance or behavioral....have a tough time of it.

Some call this "tough time" co-dependency. That is not a derogatory word, but simply a term to describe the chaos addiction creates in other peoples' lives.

There are some common behaviors described by co-dependency....Denial, covering up, isolation, anger, depression, enabling.

Discovering a loved one is addicted can be debilitating. Fear is the most common reaction....

Piggy-backing on the previous discussion in which a case was attempted to be made that somehow being faithful LDS makes one more susceptible to problems with pornography,

My questions are....

Do you think the above fears are exacerbated because of unique LDS beliefs? Are Mormons more likely to have co-dependency problems because of their religious beliefs?

Are there aspects of Mormon beliefs and practices that help alleviate the effects of co-dependency? Would you share your experiences?

I'm not interested in discussing whether or not co-dependency is a "recognized medical" issue.

I use the term simply as a convenience to describe the disruption caused by addiction in their loved ones' lives.

Did you listen to the podcast? The presenter is LDS, active I believe. This was done back in 2011, when JD wasn't anti, not that he is now. Just a different time table. He discusses alot about how some thoughts put into heads about porn or other things can acerbate the condition. If you only want to listen starting around 30 minutes or so in. You'll hear the jist of it. I think it would be good for any parent out there. And even if that parent went to their child and asked for forgiveness if they put things in their heads that were wrong. I wish the LDS leaders such as bishops etc. would listen to the podcast I posted on this thread. Just wish it wasn't on Mormon Stories because maybe more would listen had it not.

Bernard Gui · May 8, 2017

On 5/7/2017 at 0:53 PM, Tacenda said:

Some know of my situation with my brother. I've tried to get help for him for years, and finally he agreed to go to rehab. He finished over a month ago and he's living with me. He has since relapsed already, and as I speak he probably has again since he hasn't shown up this weekend and I've no idea where he is. He's done this twice and admitted that he relapsed and how awful he felt for it. But now I suspect he is doing it again.

I don't know what to do because I've told him he needs to come home each night. He hasn't lived up to this, and now I guess I need to hold to it. But still can't bear throwing him onto the streets, shoot!

I think I've aged 10 years over it. And gotten his other siblings involved monetarily too, for the rehab. It wasn't that much, but it sure isn't fun to tell them what he's doing now. I thought for sure this was going to stick, he was so sure.

I did listen to an interesting podcast that mentioned alcoholism tends to run high for LDS. Because they tend to want to get drunk vs. be social drinkers. My LDS brother never was a social drinker, it was drink till you get drunk for him. I believe it's the link below where it mentions the phenomenon.

http://www.mormonstories.org/253-the-lds-church-and-mental-health-with-dr-david-christian/

This is no fun at all.

May I humbly suggest attending a family support group? We deal with these very issues. If you don't want to attend, you can access the Family Support Group manual at

https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/spouses-and-families/1?lang=eng

It literally saved our lives and marriage.

Bernard Gui · May 8, 2017

On 5/7/2017 at 1:03 PM, rpn said:

I don't think that co-dependency is at all related to "having a tough time with it". Nor do I think that fear of _________________ is the reason for having a hard time, or codependency.

Co-dependency happens when someone acts in ways that make them complicit in the addiction. It usually includes enabling, but can also include feeling better about themselves because they stick with it, or other actions or non-actions.

I also don't think it is unhealthy to be concerned about a loved one's progress on their path to eternal life. It is unhealthy and unrighteous to force the gospel on others or withhold necessary and non-damaging love or help because of bad choices.

I'm not sure what your disagreement is. Co-dependency is simply a term that describes unhealthy reactions to a loved one's addiction. I listed enabling among other behaviors that may indicated co-dependency. I don't agree that it makes them complicit in the addiction. In fact, that's one of the first goals of a support group...to dispel that false notion.

No one said anything about not being concerned with a loved one's progress on their path to eternal life. Nothing in the LDS Addiction Recovery Program encourages force, unrighteous dominion, withholding love or help. I'm not sure where you got that from. It's precisely that concern that can mess up LDS parents and families.

I provided a list of things that people fear when a loved one is in addiction. Those fears can cause chaos in personal and family life. We can check off each one of them. We have experienced them all dealing with our sons' addictions.

For example, we fear every day that our son will die from substance abuse in some obscure place and we will never find out about it. He has been hospitalized three times on the verge of death with MERSA infections. We fear he will die from falling under the wheels of a moving freight train as he tries to jump on it with his dog. In his world, losing a limb under a train is a badge of honor, authenticity, proves you're hard-core Dirty Kid. We fear he will be incarcerated in some jail in Mexico, Central America, or Canada and we will never know about it. If we allow ourselves to dwell on those fears, it causes a great deal of anxiety---co-dependency. We have to learn how to distance ourselves from that. It's no fun.

Here's how he lives:

http://www.pennlive.com/projects/2015/dirty-kids/

The last time we saw him, he had not taken off his boots for 3 months. When he took them off in our house, we almost died. The boots went in a sealed bag into the trash bin in the garage, the remnants of the socks, ditto. I must confess I did a bit of enabling (can't quite kick it) and bought him a new pair for really good Danner boots. I figure if he's going to live that way, he should have some decent foot gear. I recalled the ad on the old Howdy Dowdy Show...."All God's Children Need Shoes." (Pre-dated Maya Angelou's poem) After he, his traveling friends, and dogs left, we had to do some serious air quality damage control in the hous and car. But we still love him more than ever.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Bernard Gui

rpn · May 8, 2017

I recognize all those things could happen. But I don't fear them. I'm just sad about them.

Bernard Gui · May 8, 2017

57 minutes ago, rpn said:

I recognize all those things could happen. But I don't fear them. I'm just sad about them.

Well, I'm glad you don't fear those things. You have remarkable self-control. I'm sad about them, too.
Do you have a loved one in this situation? How have you been able to avoid fear?

1 Nephi 8:36-37

36 And it came to pass after my father had spoken all the words of his dream or vision, which were many, he said unto us, because of these things which he saw in a vision, he exceedingly feared for Laman and Lemuel; yea, he feared lest they should be cast offfrom the presence of the Lord.

1 Nephi 18:18

18 Because of their grief and much sorrow, and the iniquity of my brethren, they were brought near even to be carried out of this time to meet their God; yea, their grey hairs were about to be brought down to lie low in the dust; yea, even they were near to be cast with sorrow into a watery grave.

Mosiah 28:4

4 And thus did the Spirit of the Lord work upon them, for they were the very vilest of sinners. And the Lord saw fit in his infinite mercy to spare them; nevertheless they suffered much anguish of soul because of their iniquities, suffering much and fearing that they should be cast off forever.

Alma 13:27

27 And now, my brethren, I wish from the inmost part of my heart, yea, with great anxiety even unto pain, that ye would hearken unto my words, and castoff your sins, and not procrastinate the day of your repentance;

Edited May 8, 2017 by Bernard Gui

Meerkat · June 19, 2017

On 5/7/2017 at 0:53 PM, Tacenda said:

Some know of my situation with my brother. I've tried to get help for him for years, and finally he agreed to go to rehab. He finished over a month ago and he's living with me. He has since relapsed already, and as I speak he probably has again since he hasn't shown up this weekend and I've no idea where he is. He's done this twice and admitted that he relapsed and how awful he felt for it. But now I suspect he is doing it again.

I don't know what to do because I've told him he needs to come home each night. He hasn't lived up to this, and now I guess I need to hold to it. But still can't bear throwing him onto the streets, shoot!

I think I've aged 10 years over it. And gotten his other siblings involved monetarily too, for the rehab. It wasn't that much, but it sure isn't fun to tell them what he's doing now. I thought for sure this was going to stick, he was so sure.

I did listen to an interesting podcast that mentioned alcoholism tends to run high for LDS. Because they tend to want to get drunk vs. be social drinkers. My LDS brother never was a social drinker, it was drink till you get drunk for him. I believe it's the link below where it mentions the phenomenon.

http://www.mormonstories.org/253-the-lds-church-and-mental-health-with-dr-david-christian/

Tacenda, I can tell you and your siblings have hearts of gold. I am sorry for the hardship you are going through. You probably participate in a 12 step program for family members. My wife and I attend the LDS Church program every week. We don't learn much about fixing our addicts. But it has helped slow down the aging process for us. We are moving toward a more consistent happiness, but it is still hard when the tide rolls in. Thanks for sharing your story.

Tacenda · June 19, 2017

7 minutes ago, Meerkat said:

Tacenda, I can tell you and your siblings have hearts of gold. I am sorry for the hardship you are going through. You probably participate in a 12 step program for family members. My wife and I attend the LDS Church program every week. We don't learn much about fixing our addicts. But it has helped slow down the aging process for us. We are moving toward a more consistent happiness, but it is still hard when the tide rolls in. Thanks for sharing your story.

Thanks Meerkat! Good news, my brother has since moved out on his own and is working as a Glazier. He drives a work truck that needed to be rigged up with a breathalizer before the DMV would give him a license. He hasn't been able to drive for a long time and was in and out of jail, hopefully this will now change for good. Just today I saw a photo he posted on FB with his son who now works with him. I hope it continues.

My brother and I attended a few LDS Addiction Recovery meetings while he was living with me. It was so spiritual, I loved it.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Tacenda

Calm · June 19, 2017

Good to hear, Tacenda.

Meerkat · June 19, 2017

Yes indeed. Good to hear!

MiserereNobis · June 19, 2017

On 5/8/2017 at 4:10 PM, Bernard Gui said:

Here's how he lives:

http://www.pennlive.com/projects/2015/dirty-kids/

Interesting! You've got a neo-hippie son, eh? Back in my day I would live out of the VW bus during the summers giving rides to the "traveling kids" (that's what they called themselves then, not dirty kids). I've been to my fair share of Rainbow Gatherings.

You can trace it back to Jack Kerouac and from there to the hobos of the depression. It's a long and "noble" American tradition. I don't think you should feel bad about buying him a pair of shoes -- you're helping out anyway you can, and a good pair of shoes are certainly something incredibly valuable in that lifestyle.

ETA: I don't want my post to detract from your pain, which you've shared here and there over various threads, so I'm sorry if it came off that way. I've just had some peripheral dealings with traveling kids and wanted to share.

Edited June 19, 2017 by MiserereNobis

Bernard Gui · June 19, 2017

2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Interesting! You've got a neo-hippie son, eh? Back in my day I would live out of the VW bus during the summers giving rides to the "traveling kids" (that's what they called themselves then, not dirty kids). I've been to my fair share of Rainbow Gatherings.

You can trace it back to Jack Kerouac and from there to the hobos of the depression. It's a long and "noble" American tradition. I don't think you should feel bad about buying him a pair of shoes -- you're helping out anyway you can, and a good pair of shoes are certainly something incredibly valuable in that lifestyle.

ETA: I don't want my post to detract from your pain, which you've shared here and there over various threads, so I'm sorry if it came off that way. I've just had some peripheral dealings with traveling kids and wanted to share.

I appreciate your thoughtful concern. This was not offensive at all. For a long time we didn't want anyone to know what was going on in our family, but our experiences in the LDS Addiction Recovery Program have helped us overcome the depression, fear, and shame. We share these personal experiences freely with the hope that others in similar situations may know they're not alone and that the Atonement of Christ is the solution.

Dirty Kids/Travelers are indeed in the hippie continuum, but they take it a few steps beyond. In fact, one of their rendezvous spots is Hippie Hill in Tennessee! My dad hoboed a bit before the Depression. My high school friends and I dug "On the Road" and wore our berets in the early 60s but we grew out of it. So, maybe it's in the genes. Fortunately, I didn't do the substance thingy. I hope our son doesn't suffer Kerouac's fate, but that is a definite possibility.

There's a fellow who did a photo essay on Dirty Kids/Travelers. He traveled around the country looking for them in train yards and city centers. He paid them for giving him their story and allowing him to take a portrait-type photo. Our son is in the essay. He's the one with the Farsi (from his time in Afghanistan) tattoos on his upper chest and the nose ring.

http://www.michaeljosephphotographics.com/album/lost-and-found

I don't feel badly about buying shoes - just pointing out an enabling behavior on my part that may prevent him from experiencing the consequences of his choices. Enabling usually makes things worse, but there is a fine line we negotiate between compassion and enabling.

He called from Quebec yesterday to wish me a happy Father's Day.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Bernard Gui

USU78 · June 19, 2017

My youngest needed help and I was unable to provide much: she reflexively rejected whatever I said/suggested.

She finally agreed to go in and talk with someone. And that person disclosed a probable diagnosis: histrionic personality disorder, an addiction to drama.

I received the advice not to engage when there were extremes of behavior, especially those obviously intended to elicit a dramatic response.

She ultimately elected to cut off all contact, and I must respect her decision. What I beat myself up over is how clueless I was, always imputing different motives for her choices and her behaviors.

Anybody have thought s on what a good strategy would be?

MiserereNobis · June 19, 2017

Is he bare-chested with the bandana around his neck? If so, he looks quite healthy (compared to the others and what I've seen). Thanks be to God!

I'm a big Grateful Dead fan and a lot of these travelers started coming to the parking lots of shows in the 90s (not going for the show, but the scene and drugs outside) and causing lots of problems, so I've definitely seen the negative side of it, too. God bless you trying to figure out the best way to love him. I'm glad he called you yesterday and you know where he is.

Later today I'm heading to my church to spend some time in prayer (Stations of the Cross and a full Rosary). I'm going to include you and your son in my prayer intentions. God bless you!

Bernard Gui · June 19, 2017

2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Is he bare-chested with the bandana around his neck? If so, he looks quite healthy (compared to the others and what I've seen). Thanks be to God!

I'm a big Grateful Dead fan and a lot of these travelers started coming to the parking lots of shows in the 90s (not going for the show, but the scene and drugs outside) and causing lots of problems, so I've definitely seen the negative side of it, too. God bless you trying to figure out the best way to love him. I'm glad he called you yesterday and you know where he is.

Later today I'm heading to my church to spend some time in prayer (Stations of the Cross and a full Rosary). I'm going to include you and your son in my prayer intentions. God bless you!

Yes, that's him. Riding trains is extremely risky. He has been attracted to the adrenaline rush since he was a child. He is a good-looking guy, but that photo is several years old. Three bouts of MERSA and some other behaviors are taking their toll, but he avoids the really hard drugs and maintains the physical fitness he gained in the Army, all positives, thank God.

We have done all we can to maintain communication and not to cut him off. We love him too much to do that and to his great credit he still keeps in contact. Thank you so much for your prayers. This means a lot to me.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Bernard Gui

Bernard Gui · June 19, 2017

8 hours ago, USU78 said:

My youngest needed help and I was unable to provide much: she reflexively rejected whatever I said/suggested.

She finally agreed to go in and talk with someone. And that person disclosed a probable diagnosis: histrionic personality disorder, an addiction to drama.

I received the advice not to engage when there were extremes of behavior, especially those obviously intended to elicit a dramatic response.

She ultimately elected to cut off all contact, and I must respect her decision. What I beat myself up over is how clueless I was, always imputing different motives for her choices and her behaviors.

Anybody have thought s on what a good strategy would be?

Well, this is a new one for me. I've never heard of histrionic personality disorder, but now I know what it is. You may not wish to answer, but does she try to self-medicate? Major bummer.

Here is a graphic that helps us. Sister Gui invented it for our group. The glass represents addiction (disorder). Our loved ones are inside, but everything they say and do passes through the glass. They look like the person we know and love, but we and they cannot relate because of the filter. When we try to communicate, we are simply talking to the glass. Until that is removed, we can't have a productive loving relationship.

We have not been cut off by our Traveler, but there have been some very rocky times. We have several friends whose loved ones have cut them off. All we can do is pray and wait in faith and patience for them to come to themselves. In the meantime, we try to stay healthy and maintain ourselves so that when they decide to return we will be in good position to receive them....like the Prodigal Son's father. We are discouraged by Lehi's experience, but encouraged by Alma's. He prayed that his son would be led to the truth. That's what we pray for. One thing we learn in our Recovery Group is not to beat ourselves up. We also know that God is merciful and there is an eternity ahead of us.

If it's messing you up, you might consider attending a Family Support Group. It took me a while to seek help, but It saved us. I'm available and there are others here who are going through this.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Bernard Gui

Bernard Gui · June 19, 2017

3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Later today I'm heading to my church to spend some time in prayer (Stations of the Cross and a full Rosary). I'm going to include you and your son in my prayer intentions. God bless you!

And.....I have faith that your prayers will be effective for him.

Jeanne · June 19, 2017

17 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Thanks Meerkat! Good news, my brother has since moved out on his own and is working as a Glazier. He drives a work truck that needed to be rigged up with a breathalizer before the DMV would give him a license. He hasn't been able to drive for a long time and was in and out of jail, hopefully this will now change for good. Just today I saw a photo he posted on FB with his son who now works with him. I hope it continues.

My brother and I attended a few LDS Addiction Recovery meetings while he was living with me. It was so spiritual, I loved it.

I am so happy to hear this Tacenda...a lot of strength comes from wanting to keep a job and relationships with family can change everything!!

Jeanne · June 19, 2017

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Well, this is a new one for me. I've never heard of histrionic personality disorder, but now I know what it is. You may not wish to answer, but does she try to self-medicate? Major bummer.

Here is a graphic that helps us. Sister Gui invented it for our group. The glass represents addiction (disorder). Our loved ones are inside, but everything they say and do passes through the glass. They look like the person we know and love, but we and they cannot relate because of the filter. When we try to communicate, we are simply talking to the glass. Until that is removed, we can't have a productive loving relationship.

We have not been cut off by our Traveler, but there have been some very rocky times. We have several friends whose loved ones have cut them off. All we can do is pray and wait in faith and patience for them to come to themselves. In the meantime, we try to stay maintain ourselves so that when they decide to return we will be in good position to receive them....like the Prodigal Son's father. We are discouraged by Lehi's experience, but encouraged by Alma's. He prayed that his son would be led to the truth. That's what we pray for. One thing we learn in our Recovery Group is not to beat ourselves up. We also know that God is merciful and there is an eternity ahead of us.

If it's messing you up, you might consider attending a Family Support Group. It took me a while to seek help, but It saved us. I'm available and there are others here who are going through this.

I love how your wife puts forth this unique way of explaining things Best to you Bernard!

Do you have a loved one in addiction?

Recommended Posts

Recently Browsing 0 members

Similar Content