Best Answer To The Common Statement In My Home Lately?

[rodheadlee]

I am not a parent but you can not appreciate the Light until you know Darkness. Many BIC folks have to leave to find out for themselves and then hopefully return. Much prayer is required for the safe return.

[california boy]

The best idea is to teach them early that the church teaches the best possible lifestyle for happiness and show them how they are avoiding the misery their friends are experiencing.

"You want to drink and have fun? Go drink and find out what it feels like to vomit your guts out. Go see what it's like to have a baby at 15!"

Worked for my 4 kids. Never had to force any of them to go to church. They saw it was a better way to go.

 

I also agree with this.  One should be a member of the church because they think it enriches their life.  It is the greatest strength the church has to offer anyone.  We don't go to church to check off some list of good behavior, we should go to church to become a better person. If that is the goal, then perhaps attending becomes secondary to the ultimate goal.  Perhaps you should also consider not attending church, but agree to spend that time with your daughter sharing with her what you feel is important spiritual attributes that you have found in your life.  Maybe don't even start with "church" things.  Just share with her the stories of your life where you have grown both spiritually and intellectually.  Probably not all of those experiences have happened within the walls of sunday meetings.  Attending church is just a structured way to get closer to God.  Isn't that the goal?  

 

I remember a while back it was rumored that the church was thinking about discontinuing sunday school.  To replace it, they wanted fathers to teach their children the gospel.  Perhaps for your family, this could be an approach you could use.  Maybe even require them to attend only Sacrament meeting.  After all, that is the only meeting God requires we attend.  All the others are just there to enrich our lives.  

[Maestrophil]

I also agree with this.  One should be a member of the church because they think it enriches their life.  It is the greatest strength the church has to offer anyone.  We don't go to church to check off some list of good behavior, we should go to church to become a better person. If that is the goal, then perhaps attending becomes secondary to the ultimate goal.  Perhaps you should also consider not attending church, but agree to spend that time with your daughter sharing with her what you feel is important spiritual attributes that you have found in your life.  Maybe don't even start with "church" things.  Just share with her the stories of your life where you have grown both spiritually and intellectually.  Probably not all of those experiences have happened within the walls of sunday meetings.  Attending church is just a structured way to get closer to God.  Isn't that the goal?  

 

I remember a while back it was rumored that the church was thinking about discontinuing sunday school.  To replace it, they wanted fathers to teach their children the gospel.  Perhaps for your family, this could be an approach you could use.  Maybe even require them to attend only Sacrament meeting.  After all, that is the only meeting God requires we attend.  All the others are just there to enrich our lives.  

 

I would love that approach during Sunday School.  Especially if sanctioned by the brethren. 

 

Thanks to you all for your advice.  I took something positive from every comment.  Luckily - I was able to listen to my daughter for a long time, and the next day she seemed grateful for it and even declared "we had a good talk last night".  You have all helped me keep a good perspective and I thank you.  Once again, I am grateful for this group.

 

MP

[Maestrophil]

mfbukowski,  I respectfully disagree.   The church doesn't teach them lifestyles or happiness.  That responsibility falls on the parents.  It may be reinforced by church teachings.   Besides, their unchurched friends may not be experiencing misery.  Believe it or not, there are responsible - happy kids out there that do not attend the LDS church.  It's a parenting issue.

 

Completely agree.   This is what is honestly difficult because I openly acknowledge that I have been blessed while following the gospel.  But I have also been hurt, and others in my life have, of course, been fortunate while not living the gospel.  So I can see how it is hard for kids to see an urgency in choosing the gospel NOW.  My son who is struggling, keeps saying that "If God loves me, even if I have to pay a price through millennia, He will eventually accept me in his kingdom." 

 

As a parent, you just want to see them journey as safely as possible.

[Maestrophil]

As far as people discussing what alternatives they want - that is the kicker.  They just want another day off - sleep, TV etc.  When I ask them both what they would do if not forced to go to church, this is what they say they would want.  More weekend to play.  Spirituality is not something that needs to be worked on in their opinions.  It's just your "mood"

[mfbukowski]

mfbukowski,  I respectfully disagree.   The church doesn't teach them lifestyles or happiness.  That responsibility falls on the parents.  It may be reinforced by church teachings.   Besides, their unchurched friends may not be experiencing misery.  Believe it or not, there are responsible - happy kids out there that do not attend the LDS church.  It's a parenting issue.

I think you are not LDS because you would know that the lifestyle and the church are interchangeable. We essentially worship a lifestyle. Everything revolves around the family.

But of course there are happy kids who are not LDS but that is because they are already living the principles but without the church.

I was an atheist for years before I found a church which incorporated a theology of the family. For us all of humanity, including God Himself, are literally in the same family.

That is the most powerful way to teach family values I can imagine.

[mfbukowski]

As far as people discussing what alternatives they want - that is the kicker.  They just want another day off - sleep, TV etc.  When I ask them both what they would do if not forced to go to church, this is what they say they would want.  More weekend to play.  Spirituality is not something that needs to be worked on in their opinions.  It's just your "mood"

I suggest you use that and tell them if they want to be in a good mood on a continuing basis, and feel the spirit, they might try church.

If they do not feel better there, they should not go.

Yes, I am serious. The problem is semantic. The spirit IS a mood

[mfbukowski]

We have evolved to live in families and find happiness in them, and living those values fully is what church is. We are built to be in a "good mood" and that IS "The Plan of Happiness"

[cinepro]

The best idea is to teach them early that the church teaches the best possible lifestyle for happiness and show them how they are avoiding the misery their friends are experiencing.

"You want to drink and have fun? Go drink and find out what it feels like to vomit your guts out. Go see what it's like to have a baby at 15!"

Worked for my 4 kids. Never had to force any of them to go to church. They saw it was a better way to go.

 

That would explain the LDS kids that I've known who drank to excess and/or got pregnant.

[Ahab]

We see things differently if you think your stewardship of your children ends when they get to be 18 years old. I would just figure out what to do with them if you don't take them to Church meetings with you. I wouldn't pay money for a baby sitter and depending on their age and maturity level I might not just leave them at home either. You may have no better option than to just take them with you, even if they don't like it or if you don't like hearing them bickering. Ugh. Sometimes it's just not much fun to be a parent, but you're stuck with them now and you might as well learn how to handle them.

[Maestrophil]

We see things differently if you think your stewardship of your children ends when they get to be 18 years old. I would just figure out what to do with them if you don't take them to Church meetings with you. I wouldn't pay money for a baby sitter and depending on their age and maturity level I might not just leave them at home either. You may have no better option than to just take them with you, even if they don't like it or if you don't like hearing them bickering. Ugh. Sometimes it's just not much fun to be a parent, but you're stuck with them now and you might as well learn how to handle them.

 

I don't think my stewardship ends, but my legal right to be a dictator or sorts does.  :-)

[Ahab]

I don't think my stewardship ends, but my legal right to be a dictator or sorts does. :-)

We should follow the example of our Father in heaven, not being a dictator of sorts any more or less than he is.

[saemo]

Hi all,

 

The thread on why young people leave, as well as recent events in my family prompted me to write this post.  I had a long talk with my 15 year-old daughter (step-daughter actually) as her mom and I were noticing some eye rolling and general disrespect at church Sunday as well as her not partaking of the sacrament. 

 

This conversation led to her stating that she really wants to figure out religion for herself and resents that she is "forced" to attend church, YW, seminary etc.  We tried to explain to her that it was like going to school.  We, as parents have a stewardship to make sure you get a basic education, and after than you do what you want with it.  The conversation went into much more detail, but the end result was her saying she is sick of being told to "pray about it".  That there are many ways to be spiritual, and at this point she is just waiting until she is 18 to be done with church.

 

You may recall that I had the almost the exact same conversation with her brother (my biological son).  He now attends church, but refuses to administer or take the sacrament and also makes it clear that he is just buying time until he is 18 so he can be "done".  They are very close, and I can hear his words in her mouth and it is hard at me to not be angry at him for stirring the pot - but at the same time, I make it clear to them that I love them and will always accept and love them regardless of their faith choices.  Also complication things is that their other parents (her bio-dad and his bio-mom) both are very anti religion and LDS in general and they are both influenced by that as well.

 

The overall result right now though, is that my wife and I feel very discouraged and sad - and a bit overwhelmed at how to approach the situation.

 

So - what is your advice on how to proceed?  What are some good answers to the "I'm waiting until I am 18 and I am done" comments and the "I should have the freedom to choose whatever I want now" and the even more repeated- "you making me go just makes me not want to go more"?  I actually have to refrain from getting angry at that last one because it seems so stubborn and idiotic to me.

 

If we were to tell them they didn't have to go to anything - I guarantee they would NOT go.  Just like they would NOT brush teeth, go to bed on time, or study without our "making them".  If some of you that have left the church were ever in similar situations, can you help me understand things differently and, if possible, let me know what might have possibly been done differently that might have made you stay active - or had you simply decided it wasn't for you and nothing your parents would have said could have changed it?

 

Thanks!

 

MP

 

I honestly await your ideas on the matter.

Teens who are in a loving home with loving parents still respect their parents, but they are questioning and rejecting parental absolute authority and claims. I found the approach is to say what you believe or think as the respected person you are, and give the same respect to the teen to discover what they believe and think. You still have influence, just it is no longer absolute authority, and never will be again. Teen angst and rebellion against authority is normal, and part of the process of a teen transitioning into independent adulthood.

[rpn]

IME, a desire to reject the church is quite often because the young person is different from what he or she perceives a church member is or should be or has no friends at church.   As a parent I do require attendance at church.   I explicitly acknowledge that they are absolutely not required to believe anything, nor do they have to do more than respectfully attend their classes, and sacrament meeting where they must sit with the family.

 

But I do think it important to acknowledge that there are different ways to worship God even within the expectations and teachings of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.   I think it important for parents to engage children in what they object to, and encourage children to figure out what they will do instead to serve God.   I think important to acknowledge that they are not the only one who has trouble praying, and that doesn't feel they get answers.  See that FHE involves service to others and strengthening relationships.

 

Too often though, the distance is because the child has violated the standards in some way that parents don't know about and have come to believe that their only or best choice is that the church doctrine is not true.   It is about their feeling of unworthiness or lack of desire to do all those things that they think are required.   So encourage them to figure out how they will establish their value in service to the community, not what they don't believe, but everythign they do believe.     Help them figure out ways to get something from the time they spend in required meetings, even if it is not what the parents are hoping for them.   And be sure your children really understand about the atonement and about what is outside their responsibiltiy (the behavior of others)  and what is within their obligations (their own choices).

 

Practice JOY in living the Gospel.

[sdc999]

I think you are not LDS because you would know that the lifestyle and the church are interchangeable. We essentially worship a lifestyle. Everything revolves around the family.

But of course there are happy kids who are not LDS but that is because they are already living the principles but without the church.

I was an atheist for years before I found a church which incorporated a theology of the family. For us all of humanity, including God Himself, are literally in the same family.

That is the most powerful way to teach family values I can imagine.

I'm not sure that the people that ARE LDS know that the lifestyle and the church are interchangeable.  If they did, I wouldn't see the local relief society president slipping off to play the slots in Bossier City or the 1st councilor's wife declaring a "garment free" week while in the Caribbean.  Great pics on facebook with what a appears to be a look of gleeful approval from her spouse.  

The LDS don't have  a stronghold on hypocrites though.  All churches have them.  Most all churches  convey moral principles and family.  Some people have found a way to have those moral principles and family values without church.  

I love attending church myself.  I think I'm better for it and my family as well. For my children, it reinforces what we teach and believe in our home.  

[mfbukowski]

I'm not sure that the people that ARE LDS know that the lifestyle and the church are interchangeable.  If they did, I wouldn't see the local relief society president slipping off to play the slots in Bossier City or the 1st councilor's wife declaring a "garment free" week while in the Caribbean.  Great pics on facebook with what a appears to be a look of gleeful approval from her spouse.  

The LDS don't have  a stronghold on hypocrites though.  All churches have them.  Most all churches  convey moral principles and family.  Some people have found a way to have those moral principles and family values without church.  

I love attending church myself.  I think I'm better for it and my family as well. For my children, it reinforces what we teach and believe in our home.  

I had two kids serve missions in the south, one spent time in Shreveport.

 

One of my favorite stories involves someone coming to the door on a Sunday to greet the missionaries saying "Nah- we've had enough Jesus for today".

 

The least favorite was a pickup truck deliberately going off the road to graze my obviously-Mormon-missionary son on a bike, knocking him off his bike and the big mirror right off the truck.  "Luckily" the mirror hit his backpack.   He brought the mirror home as a souvenir.

You're not missing a mirror are you?

 

 

I'm not sure that the people that ARE LDS know that the lifestyle and the church are interchangeable

 

The overall local demographics of that area are probably more of an issue than religion.

Edited January 8, 2015 by mfbukowski

[BCSpace]

Hi all,

 

The thread on why young people leave, as well as recent events in my family prompted me to write this post.  I had a long talk with my 15 year-old daughter (step-daughter actually) as her mom and I were noticing some eye rolling and general disrespect at church Sunday as well as her not partaking of the sacrament. 

 

This conversation led to her stating that she really wants to figure out religion for herself and resents that she is "forced" to attend church, YW, seminary etc.  We tried to explain to her that it was like going to school.  We, as parents have a stewardship to make sure you get a basic education, and after than you do what you want with it.  The conversation went into much more detail, but the end result was her saying she is sick of being told to "pray about it".  That there are many ways to be spiritual, and at this point she is just waiting until she is 18 to be done with church.

 

You may recall that I had the almost the exact same conversation with her brother (my biological son).  He now attends church, but refuses to administer or take the sacrament and also makes it clear that he is just buying time until he is 18 so he can be "done".  They are very close, and I can hear his words in her mouth and it is hard at me to not be angry at him for stirring the pot - but at the same time, I make it clear to them that I love them and will always accept and love them regardless of their faith choices.  Also complication things is that their other parents (her bio-dad and his bio-mom) both are very anti religion and LDS in general and they are both influenced by that as well.

 

The overall result right now though, is that my wife and I feel very discouraged and sad - and a bit overwhelmed at how to approach the situation.

 

So - what is your advice on how to proceed?  What are some good answers to the "I'm waiting until I am 18 and I am done" comments and the "I should have the freedom to choose whatever I want now" and the even more repeated- "you making me go just makes me not want to go more"?  I actually have to refrain from getting angry at that last one because it seems so stubborn and idiotic to me.

 

If we were to tell them they didn't have to go to anything - I guarantee they would NOT go.  Just like they would NOT brush teeth, go to bed on time, or study without our "making them".  If some of you that have left the church were ever in similar situations, can you help me understand things differently and, if possible, let me know what might have possibly been done differently that might have made you stay active - or had you simply decided it wasn't for you and nothing your parents would have said could have changed it?

 

Thanks!

 

MP

 

I honestly await your ideas on the matter. 

 

It's a tough situation that speaks to the value of maintaining an intact believing family and marrying within the Church or marrying a believer.  But kudos to you for taking on the situation and living through your own situation. I have no idea what your previous wife was initially, not a believer or became a non believer later on.

 

I think because, as it seems, these children had less than an ideal situation, as it relates to the Church, growing up and possibly because you also have to share custody with their unbelieving bios thus continuing the massive exposure to unbelief, the cards are currently stacked against you in the worst way.

 

Love them.  Pray for them continually as Alma and Mosiah did for their sons. Live the example.  Etc.  Since they are in my house and under my care, I would most certainly 'force' them to go to Church and the Youth Activities.  i wouldn't drag them by the collar, but I would sit outside their doors constantly calling to them to come until they do come, even if it means being several hours late or you miss it completely. My house, my rules.  Same with FHE etc.  They will eventually get tired of it and just be ready to go avoid the scene.

 

It is likely that they will leave the Church anyway at this stage based on what you have said, but if you don't show them how important it is by gently twisting their arms, they might not miss it when they leave the house.

 

Frankly, the great possibility exists they will rebel even further with this method. Everything you do or don't do is a risk but maybe the faster you drive them to rock bottom, the faster they will realize what's good for them. Or if they never hit rock bottom, they will never at a later stage in life recognize the bitter from the sweet.

[Maestrophil]

It's a tough situation that speaks to the value of maintaining an intact believing family and marrying within the Church or marrying a believer.  But kudos to you for taking on the situation and living through your own situation. I have no idea what your previous wife was initially, not a believer or became a non believer later on.

 

I think because, as it seems, these children had less than an ideal situation, as it relates to the Church, growing up and possibly because you also have to share custody with their unbelieving bios thus continuing the massive exposure to unbelief, the cards are currently stacked against you in the worst way.

 

 

Oops.... edited to add my actual comments...  :-)

 

Thanks again for all your comments and insights.  My ex wife and I were married in the temple and we raised our kids active LDS.  She then had a long-term affair and left me (and the church) with the other man.  I have sole physical custody of the kids, but she actively preaches to the kids that God would never expect as much of us as the LDS church asks and is much more of a "The Secret" kind of spiritual person.  Obedience is not as important to her as being a good person.  Problem is, her definition of a good person is whatever she wants it to be depending on her needs.  My son has eaten up this teaching that he gets to do whatever he wants and still be "OK" with God.

 

Here is the latest from his seminary teacher today...  I am really torn.  If I tell him he can drop out of seminary, then we set a precedent for his younger sisters who still have may years at home.

 

Here is the email:

 

I still have Dominique on my rolls. However, as you are aware, he stopped coming about half way through last term. I don't want to advise you on his choices, but when he is in seminary it is obvious that he is uncomfortable and unhappy to be here. I have wondered if at this time in his life seminary might be counterproductive?

Please know that I am not trying to influence your choice for him regarding seminary, but rather I wish to maintain our dialogue about how to best help him. Would a class he wants to attend work better right now? Of course I defer to you. Let me know how I might help,

 

I honestly struggle with how to approach this, and just when I think things are going well, I get more information.  I feel discouraged.

 

MP

Edited January 23, 2015 by Maestrophil

[Calm]

What about independent study?  I did that for one year (I just couldn't get up early enough for Seminary, though at the time didn't know it was due to a sleep disorder, family thought I was just lazy but was willing to compromise).

Edited January 23, 2015 by calmoriah

[Maestrophil]

What about independent study?  I did that for one year (I just couldn't get up early enough for Seminary, though at the time didn't know it was due to a sleep disorder, family thought I was just lazy but was willing to compromise).

 

Cal... he does not have to do early morning because we are in Utah.  He just wants to skip and go to lunch early.

[Calm]

My daughter was homeschooled due to health so did the independent study here in Utah and was then visited once a week at home by a seminary teacher for an hour lesson (where I did most of the talking given that one of her issues was severe social anxiety).

 

See if that might work and would be okay, he might not be so bored with a one on one discussion.

 

Timing might be an issue….what about a seminary teacher meeting him once a week privately at the seminary building instead?

Edited January 23, 2015 by calmoriah

[Maestrophil]

My daughter was homeschooled due to health so did the independent study here in Utah and was then visited once a week at home by a seminary teacher for an hour lesson (where I did most of the talking given that one of her issues was severe social anxiety).

 

See if that might work and would be okay, he might not be so bored with a one on one discussion.

 

Timing might be an issue….what about a seminary teacher meeting him once a week privately at the seminary building instead?

 

I could propose it... problem is, my son just does not want to discuss spiritual things with adults.  I honestly think the only thing that would make him happy is for my wife and I to just pretend that he his already 18 and tell him he is no longer expected to do anything church-related. 

[readstoomuch]

This has been such a good thread.  I have heard variants of many of the child statements described.  Thanks for the input and wisdom.  I am going to reread the comments more carefully.  I am not sure I have something to add right now.  I want to be constructive and I don`t know if I have better ideas than have been given already.  

[Yirgacheffe]

It's a tough situation that speaks to the value of maintaining an intact believing family and marrying within the Church or marrying a believer.  But kudos to you for taking on the situation and living through your own situation. I have no idea what your previous wife was initially, not a believer or became a non believer later on.

 

I think because, as it seems, these children had less than an ideal situation, as it relates to the Church, growing up and possibly because you also have to share custody with their unbelieving bios thus continuing the massive exposure to unbelief, the cards are currently stacked against you in the worst way.

 

Love them.  Pray for them continually as Alma and Mosiah did for their sons. Live the example.  Etc.  Since they are in my house and under my care, I would most certainly 'force' them to go to Church and the Youth Activities.  i wouldn't drag them by the collar, but I would sit outside their doors constantly calling to them to come until they do come, even if it means being several hours late or you miss it completely. My house, my rules.  Same with FHE etc.  They will eventually get tired of it and just be ready to go avoid the scene.

 

It is likely that they will leave the Church anyway at this stage based on what you have said, but if you don't show them how important it is by gently twisting their arms, they might not miss it when they leave the house.

 

Frankly, the great possibility exists they will rebel even further with this method. Everything you do or don't do is a risk but maybe the faster you drive them to rock bottom, the faster they will realize what's good for them. Or if they never hit rock bottom, they will never at a later stage in life recognize the bitter from the sweet.

Really drive your children to rock bottom?  What would this entail?

[Maestrophil]

I have been very grateful to be able to re-read all the comments here.  It is nice to have a fellowship of people who, though different, are united in concern to help one another.

 

I have been wondering too, how much we (we meaning I, really :-)) create so much of the emotion in these scenarios because of our pre-conceptions and desires.  I say this because I had an experience at church with my son (the one we have been discussing here) two Sundays ago.  We were ordaining a new priest in our quorum meeting and invited all the Priests to join in the circle.  My son got up to throw something in the trash and when he went to sit down, the other leaders and quorum guys motioned for him to join the circle.  He looked at me as if to say, I really don't want to.  I looked at him and said "you can join us if you want, son"  and he did. 

 

Afterwards, I asked him how he felt about that.  He said, he still does not have a testimony and only joined in the circle because he felt on the spot. 

 

But even knowing that is why he was in the circle, as a father, I was so happy to have my son participating with me in a priesthood circle.  So why was I happy?  I suppose that really was not "progress" in any way - but my desires colored my reaction.  I wonder how often my disappointment or desires color my emotions when my son expresses lack of desire to remain in the church.  Perhaps if I just kept rational and had faith in my having taught him and in Heavenly Father working on his own timeline, I would suffer a lot less and enjoy a lot more moments...

 

Most of the comments here have strengthened my resolve to be grateful I have a son who is kind and has integrity regardless of where his testimony currently stands.  I am making sure to communicate my love, respect and admiration for him daily.

 

Thank you all for your help and ideas.

 

Phillip