LDS testimonies...built on sand?

[snowflake]

4 hours ago, Gray said:

I think if you place your testimony on an institution or the historicity of books of scripture, yes, you've built a testimony on sand. A testimony based purely on your interaction with the divine is a much surer thing. 

So you don't place your testimony on the LDS church or BOM?  How could you confirm your interaction with the divine is truly from the divine?

[Gray]

34 minutes ago, snowflake said:

So you don't place your testimony on the LDS church or BOM?  How could you confirm your interaction with the divine is truly from the divine?

My personal model for what the Divine is is existence itself. There is no circle that can be drawn that excludes God. So in a sense everything I do is an interaction with the Divine, but in my case it's an attempt to be more conscious and aware of it. I certainly don't think I get discrete messages from God. You can drive yourself absolutely batty trying to distinguish what you think might be a revelation coming from God and your own thoughts. 

[ksfisher]

5 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

The church currently teaches that Adam was a prophet but it once taught that Adam was God.

Really?  Did the church teach this? 

[Jeanne]

4 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Really?  Did the church teach this? 

I have heard this a few times. 

[Jeanne]

2 hours ago, snowflake said:

So you don't place your testimony on the LDS church or BOM?  How could you confirm your interaction with the divine is truly from the divine?

There are people in this world that have touched the divine..without the BOM and the Church. Not everybody outside the church is exclusive to   testimony of the God and the Savior.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Jeanne

[Tacenda]

54 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

There are people in this world that have touched the divine..without the BOM and the Church. Not everybody outside the church is exclusive to   testimony of the God and the Savior.

Some even more so.

[Oliver_Cowdery]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

Really?  Did the church teach this? 

Yes.

http://www.adamgod.com/

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

Some even more so.

I agree. 

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

Some even more so.

Can't get rid of this quote..so i agree again. 

[Guest]

10 hours ago, why me said:

My daughter just told me about one of her mission companions who had a strong testimony has now left the church. My daughter said that when she was on her mission this missionary companion would bear her testimony with strength and conviction. But now, after her mission she has left the church. So my question is: are lds testimonies built on sand or rock? Now, when I hear testimonies, I have difficulties believing such testimonies because of the examples that I have seen about people who gave their testimonies with conviction but who have since left the church.

Do you feel the same way about your own or your daughter's testimony? Even the most powerful testimony can be eroded away over time, when not guarded and strengthened. Your daughter's companion may have been built on rock, but Rock is sand when subjected to the fierce winds and waters of the adversary. 

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

Quote

The church currently teaches that Adam was a prophet but it once taught that Adam was God. 

Really?  Did the church teach this?

Yep.
The prophet proclaimed it from the stand on multiple occasions, even at General Conference and in the press.  It was integrated into the temple endowment.  A couple of members were nearly disciplined for teaching against it, including one of the 12 Apostles.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

There are people in this world that have touched the divine..without the BOM and the Church. Not everybody outside the church is exclusive to   testimony of the God and the Savior.

So they claim.

[Jeanne]

3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So they claim.

The same claim that the LDS church has.  There are no special people JLHPROF.  We are all children of God...we all claim things in our own right and experience.  I don't discount your belief..but you can't discount mine.  For years I thought I was in that special generation that would be the stalwart ones raised up for a special time on earth..it was a wonderful awakening to find that others who value integrity..sharing..giving..had nothing to do with the church.  I was not special..I am now a part of the world that really is..and the generation behind me (us) will more likely see the world as they claim. 

[Robert F. Smith]

11 hours ago, why me said:

My daughter just told me about one of her mission companions who had a strong testimony has now left the church. My daughter said that when she was on her mission this missionary companion would bear her testimony with strength and conviction. But now, after her mission she has left the church. So my question is: are lds testimonies built on sand or rock? Now, when I hear testimonies, I have difficulties believing such testimonies because of the examples that I have seen about people who gave their testimonies with conviction but who have since left the church.

You are speaking of a small minority of those who projected strong testimonies and then left the Church.  This happens within all religions, and represents the reality with which we all must deal in our personal testimonies.  Oliver Cowdery likewise had to deal with it.  There he was, the second elder in the Church, and very highly regarded by everyone including Joseph.  He had seen everything up close and personal, and yet he apostatized.  Much later he saw the error of his ways and was rebaptized.  How could that happen? We ask.  The rock of our testimonies is revelation or inspiration of the Holy Spirit.  Any of us can lose that, and all of us are fallible.  The risks and temptations must be credible and real in order to be meaningful.  It is not easy to keep the faith.  It isn't supposed to be.  Yet, of all the so-called Christian religions, the Mormons are by far the most successful.  They must be doing something right.

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

The same claim that the LDS church has.  There are no special people JLHPROF.  We are all children of God

Not an issue of any person or group of people being special.
It's an issue of obedience to law.  Christ is the only way to God.  Baptism is the only way to Christ.

There are good people everywhere.  And all must follow what Christ has said.  There is no other way.

[Oliver_Cowdery]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You are speaking of a small minority of those who projected strong testimonies and then left the Church.  This happens within all religions, and represents the reality with which we all must deal in our personal testimonies.  Oliver Cowdery likewise had to deal with it.  There he was, the second elder in the Church, and very highly regarded by everyone including Joseph.  He had seen everything up close and personal, and yet he apostatized.  Much later he saw the error of his ways and was rebaptized.  How could that happen? We ask.  The rock of our testimonies is revelation or inspiration of the Holy Spirit.  Any of us can lose that, and all of us are fallible.  The risks and temptations must be credible and real in order to be meaningful.  It is not easy to keep the faith.  It isn't supposed to be.  Yet, of all the so-called Christian religions, the Mormons are by far the most successful.  They must be doing something right.

Oliver's apostasy can't really be compared very well to the Google apostasy we are seeing now.  If the church is what it claims to be Oliver Cowdery saw Jesus Christ.  If the narrative is true, than Oliver simply didn't just stop believing in the super natural like us average contemporary apostates do.

Oliver Cowdery accused Joseph Smith of adultery. He was then excommunicated. Among the reasons Oliver was excommunicated was because he spoke about Joseph's affair. Oliver may have never recanted his belief in Mormonism, but he also never recanted his charge that Joseph Smith had a filthy affair. His testimony of that event still stands to this day. Oliver Cowdery only went back to the church after Joseph's death.

 

We'll never really know Oliver Cowdery's reasons, but I suspect it had less to do with truth claims and more to do with the allegations of Joseph's conduct.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Oliver_Cowdery

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, Oliver_Cowdery said:

Oliver's apostasy can't really be compared very well to the Google apostasy we are seeing now.  If the church is what it claims to be Oliver Cowdery saw Jesus Christ.  If the narrative is true, than Oliver simply didn't just stop believing in the super natural like us average contemporary apostates do.

Oliver Cowdery accused Joseph Smith of adultery. He was then excommunicated. Among the reasons Oliver was excommunicated was because he spoke about Joseph's affair. Oliver may have never recanted his belief in Mormonism, but he also never recanted his charge that Joseph Smith had a filthy affair. His testimony of that event still stands to this day. Oliver Cowdery only went back to the church after Joseph's death.

 

We'll never really know Oliver Cowdery's reasons, but I suspect it had less to do with truth claims and more to do with the allegations of Joseph's conduct.

With stuff like that I think we can bury our testimonies. We can pile on hurt, disinterest, all the reasons people quit the Church etc. Plus, as everyone getting older knows, it's SO easy to forget stuff (daddy you're supposed to pick me up from the dentist's like 1 hour ago!!!!!) and so with us and Bro. Cowdery sometimes can stumble and forget the past. I recall Elder Marlin Jensen's talk form 2007? about Remembering and it's importance. I think in some way we can get rid of all that stuff we bury our testimonies with

Edited October 13, 2016 by Duncan

[mfbukowski]

13 hours ago, why me said:

My daughter just told me about one of her mission companions who had a strong testimony has now left the church. My daughter said that when she was on her mission this missionary companion would bear her testimony with strength and conviction. But now, after her mission she has left the church. So my question is: are lds testimonies built on sand or rock? Now, when I hear testimonies, I have difficulties believing such testimonies because of the examples that I have seen about people who gave their testimonies with conviction but who have since left the church.

God leads each of us along a path to become closer to him and sometimes there are twists and turns in the path.  He is the perfect tutor.  A testimony is a revelation that we are on the right path for us, and our needs change. A testimony is not some objective measure of "reality" it is a gauge of what OUR needs are and how God might be responding to them.

Or, on the other hand, she is wrong.and not hearing properly, but in my opinion, she could be doing just fine, for her.

[Coreyb]

15 hours ago, why me said:

My daughter just told me about one of her mission companions who had a strong testimony has now left the church. My daughter said that when she was on her mission this missionary companion would bear her testimony with strength and conviction. But now, after her mission she has left the church. So my question is: are lds testimonies built on sand or rock? Now, when I hear testimonies, I have difficulties believing such testimonies because of the examples that I have seen about people who gave their testimonies with conviction but who have since left the church.

I think far too many are built on blissful ignorance. Call it sand if you will.

 

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, Oliver_Cowdery said:

Oliver's apostasy can't really be compared very well to the Google apostasy we are seeing now.  If the church is what it claims to be Oliver Cowdery saw Jesus Christ.  If the narrative is true, than Oliver simply didn't just stop believing in the super natural like us average contemporary apostates do.

Oliver Cowdery accused Joseph Smith of adultery. He was then excommunicated. Among the reasons Oliver was excommunicated was because he spoke about Joseph's affair. Oliver may have never recanted his belief in Mormonism, but he also never recanted his charge that Joseph Smith had a filthy affair. His testimony of that event still stands to this day. Oliver Cowdery only went back to the church after Joseph's death.

We'll never really know Oliver Cowdery's reasons, but I suspect it had less to do with truth claims and more to do with the allegations of Joseph's conduct.

Interesting phrase "Google apostasy."  However, I don't really see a substantive difference in apostasies over time.  Sonia Johnson (whom I knew personally before she disappeared into the wilds of New Mexico) wasn't, for example, distinctly different in her testimony and personal experiences:  She had extraordinary visions.  Besides, the NT tells us that the demons know the truth and believe it, yet are still in rebellion -- not least of whom is Satan himself.  Indeed, how extraordinary that Oliver should strongly object to polygamy (or to the United Firm as unrealistic),and yet finally allow himself to be rebaptized by Brigham Young, then polygamist-in-chief.

[carbon dioxide]

16 hours ago, why me said:

My daughter just told me about one of her mission companions who had a strong testimony has now left the church. My daughter said that when she was on her mission this missionary companion would bear her testimony with strength and conviction. But now, after her mission she has left the church. So my question is: are lds testimonies built on sand or rock? Now, when I hear testimonies, I have difficulties believing such testimonies because of the examples that I have seen about people who gave their testimonies with conviction but who have since left the church.

A testimony is just a snapshot in time.  Remember back to Lehi dream.  There are those who hold on the the iron rod for a while so they must have a testimony at some level. Perhaps some have a very strong one.  But some let go of the iron rod and they fall away into diverse paths and are lost.  The devil never gives up on us.  He is always waiting for an opening to claim another and we all can fall if we are not careful.

[cdowis]

17 hours ago, why me said:

My daughter just told me about one of her mission companions who had a strong testimony has now left the church. My daughter said that when she was on her mission this missionary companion would bear her testimony with strength and conviction. But now, after her mission she has left the church. So my question is: are lds testimonies built on sand or rock? Now, when I hear testimonies, I have difficulties believing such testimonies because of the examples that I have seen about people who gave their testimonies with conviction but who have since left the church.

I have heard many opinions on this story, and I think about recent Conference talks.

I have given this alot of thought, both for myself but also regarding others.  I have come to the conclusion that the most important thing I can do to preserve my testimony is to read the scriptures daily, especially the Book of Mormon, and to have personal, sincere prayers in the morning and evening.  Go to church regularly and partake worthily of the sacrament, and pay attention to the speakers and teachers.

Every day, every week to keep myself on the path of spiritual intimacy with Father and learn to trust Him.

[Stargazer]

21 hours ago, Gray said:

I think if you place your testimony on an institution or the historicity of books of scripture, yes, you've built a testimony on sand. A testimony based purely on your interaction with the divine is a much surer thing. 

Very good!  I happen to agree with you.  

I was re-examining my testimony and discussing it with my wife a couple of days ago, and it is exactly that interaction with the divine that has led me to this point in my life, where it seems that my testimony is stronger than ever before.  Even through the dark days of my late wife's passing, that interaction with the divine has sustained and fed my spirit to a large extent.  The Book of Mormon is a wonderful resource, and I believe in its historicity, but even if it were not historical, but a divine fiction (as I think the Book of Job may be), I am still buoyed up by the many spiritual communications that I have had with God.

I would agree that no testimony is unassailable, however, but all testimonies need to be fed and nourished by frequent interaction with God.

[HappyJackWagon]

16 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Yep.
The prophet proclaimed it from the stand on multiple occasions, even at General Conference and in the press.  It was integrated into the temple endowment.  A couple of members were nearly disciplined for teaching against it, including one of the 12 Apostles.

Well said. I'm surprised every time this is disputed or treated as new info by individuals who have been on this board for a long time. Evidence of the teaching is solid.

[rongo]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Very good!  I happen to agree with you.  

I was re-examining my testimony and discussing it with my wife a couple of days ago, and it is exactly that interaction with the divine that has led me to this point in my life, where it seems that my testimony is stronger than ever before.  Even through the dark days of my late wife's passing, that interaction with the divine has sustained and fed my spirit to a large extent.  The Book of Mormon is a wonderful resource, and I believe in its historicity, but even if it were not historical, but a divine fiction (as I think the Book of Job may be), I am still buoyed up by the many spiritual communications that I have had with God.

I would agree that no testimony is unassailable, however, but all testimonies need to be fed and nourished by frequent interaction with God.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with a member in another ward we lived in. While flying somewhere on business, he sat next to an evangelical minister. As they talked on the flight, Mormonism naturally came up. The minister asked him, hypothetically, what it would do to his belief in Jesus Christ if he could prove beyond doubt that the Book of Mormon was a fraud. He told me that he answered that it would absolutely devastate his belief in Christ. I thought about that, and told him that, while it would sadden me greatly, my belief and knowledge about Christ are not dependent on the Book of Mormon. If Joseph Smith/BoM, etc. were a fraud, I would still know that God exists and that the atonement is real. I have felt it in my life, and nothing changes that. 

Don't get me wrong. The Book of Mormon is vitally important (I happen to believe that it being literally true would be an insurmountable problem --- no inspired fiction for me!). It is a tangible witness of the truthfulness and divinity of Joseph Smith's call as a prophet. But, I have to say that my knowledge about God and relationship with Heavenly Father and Jesus and the Holy Ghost does not depend on the Book of Mormon. It relates to my personal experience interacting with God (all three of the Godhead). 

[Stargazer]

17 minutes ago, rongo said:

This reminds me of a conversation I had with a member in another ward we lived in. While flying somewhere on business, he sat next to an evangelical minister. As they talked on the flight, Mormonism naturally came up. The minister asked him, hypothetically, what it would do to his belief in Jesus Christ if he could prove beyond doubt that the Book of Mormon was a fraud. He told me that he answered that it would absolutely devastate his belief in Christ. I thought about that, and told him that, while it would sadden me greatly, my belief and knowledge about Christ are not dependent on the Book of Mormon. If Joseph Smith/BoM, etc. were a fraud, I would still know that God exists and that the atonement is real. I have felt it in my life, and nothing changes that. 

Don't get me wrong. The Book of Mormon is vitally important (I happen to believe that it being literally true would be an insurmountable problem --- no inspired fiction for me!). It is a tangible witness of the truthfulness and divinity of Joseph Smith's call as a prophet. But, I have to say that my knowledge about God and relationship with Heavenly Father and Jesus and the Holy Ghost does not depend on the Book of Mormon. It relates to my personal experience interacting with God (all three of the Godhead). 

Well, said, and while I, too, would be highly perplexed if the Book of Mormon were proven to be a fraud (highly unlikely in this life), it would not affect my testimony of Christ as my Redeemer.  I don't know for sure how this testimony of Christ came to me, although it seems to have grown on me as my testimony of the Book of Mormon grew, I am convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and He is the gate through which all must go in order to return to the Father.