LDS testimonies...built on sand?

[bluebell]

14 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Well, good question...I guess the Dead Sea Scrolls help a lot. 

Why does it help?  There are pagan religions that have ancient texts but that doesn't seem to cause you to have a testimony in them, for example.

[Maestrophil]

20 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Thank you, it's people like you in the church that probably keep me in. But without the church, I can still believe in God. Can you? I bet you would.

Tacenda, there are many members like me, and I think the leadership is largely becoming empathetic too, based on recent talks.

Fortunately, I see no reason to discard my faith in the flawed and human-run institution of the church in order to believe in God.  I believe he set up the church and guides it through flawed people who's agency he honors.  I believe he inspires them as often as they are able to listen, and they act on it as best they know.  If I expected perfection, I would have left long-ago.

[JLHPROF]

52 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

And if the Bible is to be believed, if a prophet isn't 100 percent correct on their prophecy, that makes them false. That is what gets me. I love the church and the people so much, but am I going to be condemned for believing in a faith that had prophets that got it wrong?

 

42 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Where does your testimony of the Bible come from?

 

40 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Well, good question...I guess the Dead Sea Scrolls help a lot.

I just don't know why anyone would accept the Bible as being any more valid than any other scripture.
The fact that it's older doesn't make it any more true.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4VqbmeJ32U

It all comes down to what spiritual witnesses you have received.  To have testimonies of both the Bible and Book of Mormon by the spirit and then to doubt one should automatically cause the other to be in doubt too.  The foundation of the belief came from the same source.

Edited October 13, 2016 by JLHPROF

[Jeanne]

50 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

This is the saddest thing to me. I really feel for you. You must hold on to belief in the church for fear of losing your belief in God, it appears. 

https://www.openbible.info/topics/our_feelings

Jeremiah 17:9 ESV / 218 helpful votes

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?

Proverbs 28:26 ESV / 165 helpful votes

Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.

1 John 3:20 ESV / 164 helpful votes

For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

Proverbs 14:12-13 ESV / 97 helpful votes

There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death. Even in laughter the heart may ache, and the end of joy may be grief.

Proverbs 12:15 ESV / 84 helpful votes

The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man listens to advice.

2 Timothy 3:5 ESV / 34 helpful votes

Having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.

Ephesians 4:18 ESV / 31 helpful votes

They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart.

1 Corinthians 3:16 ESV / 29 helpful votes

Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?

Proverbs 29:11 ESV / 27 helpful votes

A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back.

1 John 2:15 ESV / 26 helpful votes

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Isaiah 41:10 ESV / 26 helpful votes

Fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.

Hebrews 5:14 ESV / 20 helpful votes

But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

Psalm 40:3 ESV / 20 helpful votes

He put a new song in my mouth, a song of praise to our God. Many will see and fear, and put their trust in the Lord.

Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV / 16 helpful votes

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Psalm 63:1-11 ESV / 12 helpful votes

A Psalm of David, when he was in the wilderness of Judah. O God, you are my God; earnestly I seek you; my soul thirsts for you; my flesh faints for you, as in a dry and weary land where there is no water. So I have looked upon you in the sanctuary, beholding your power and glory. Because your steadfast love is better than life, my lips will praise you. So I will bless you as long as I live; in your name I will lift up my hands. My soul will be satisfied as with fat and rich food, and my mouth will praise you with joyful lips, ...

Isaiah 14:13-15 ESV / 7 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful

You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’ But you are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit.

John 3:16-17 ESV / 5 helpful votes

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Tacenda, just curious.and you can feel free to abstain from answering my question.  Do you, right now have more faith in the Bible than the Book of Mormon? 

[mrmarklin]

On ‎10‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 3:47 AM, why me said:

My daughter just told me about one of her mission companions who had a strong testimony has now left the church. My daughter said that when she was on her mission this missionary companion would bear her testimony with strength and conviction. But now, after her mission she has left the church. So my question is: are lds testimonies built on sand or rock? Now, when I hear testimonies, I have difficulties believing such testimonies because of the examples that I have seen about people who gave their testimonies with conviction but who have since left the church.

Some are built on sand. 

 

 

But the true ones that never go away are built on the Rock of Revelation.

[rongo]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

And if the Bible is to be believed, if a prophet isn't 100 percent correct on their prophecy, that makes them false. That is what gets me. I love the church and the people so much, but am I going to be condemned for believing in a faith that had prophets that got it wrong? 

The problem with these proof-texts is that there is no way to actually apply them in real time. In other words, the spin on the proof texts is that just one wrong prophecy disqualifies, but you have to wait to decide whether it is never going to be fulfilled or hasn't yet been fulfilled. How were people these proof-texts were given to supposed to apply this in real time in real life? Also, the Bible also teaches that false prophets can make true prophecies. And, the Bible contains false prophecies of true prophets. 

Then, as now, the confirmation came through the Spirit, not modern evangelicals' definitions of prophecy. 

[Foreigner]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

 And, the Bible contains false prophecies of true prophets. 

Examples, please?

[JLHPROF]

7 minutes ago, Foreigner said:

Examples, please?

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_prophecies

[cdowis]

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

And if the Bible is to be believed, if a prophet isn't 100 percent correct on their prophecy, that makes them false. That is what gets me. I love the church and the people so much, but am I going to be condemned for believing in a faith that had prophets that got it wrong? 

I assume that you are including the Bible prophets.  I can cite 4-5 prophecies from the Bible that failed.

[cdowis]

1 hour ago, Foreigner said:

Examples, please?

Each of these Biblical prophets made a prophecy that failed, that did not come true.  
1. Jonah 
prophecy -- Jjonah 3 [4] And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
result -- Jonah gave an UNCONDITIONAL prophecy, and it failed.

2. Isaiah
prophecy -- Isa 38 [1] In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came unto him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order: for thou shalt die, and not live.
result -- Isaiah gave an UNCONDITIONAL prophecy, and it failed.  Hezekiah did not die for another fifteen years

3.Nathan --
propnecy -- 2 Sam 7 [2] That the king said unto Nathan the prophet, See now, I dwell in an house of cedar, but the ark of God dwelleth within curtains.
[3] And Nathan said to the king, Go, do all that is in thine heart; for the LORD is with thee. Nathan
result -- Nathan gave an UNCONDITIONAL prophecy, and it failed.  David did not build the temple, but his son built it.

See also Matt 24:2, but the Wailing Wall is still standing, which was part of the temple.

[Tacenda]

5 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Tacenda, just curious.and you can feel free to abstain from answering my question.  Do you, right now have more faith in the Bible than the Book of Mormon? 

Sorry this took so long to reply back, I have much more faith in the Bible. But there are holes in it. 

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Sorry this took so long to reply back, I have much more faith in the Bible. But there are holes in it.

Why, other than its supposed age?

[Jeanne]

3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Sorry this took so long to reply back, I have much more faith in the Bible. But there are holes in it. 

Thank you for answering.  I wonder why people buy my doughnuts...they have holes in them!!  The reason that I asked was because with all the links above and scriptures of the Bible that you had...I admired that. 

[Tacenda]

7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Why, other than its supposed age?

We don't have the gold plates, we don't know where geographically the places are in the BoM, we do know where the geography is in the Bible. The scale tips toward the Bible.

[Atheist Mormon]

On 10/12/2016 at 9:32 AM, James Tunney said:

Hasn't the church based its "truthfulness" on the historicity of the book of mormon? Isn't that what moroni's promise is all about?

Like the Holy Bible does...What's the difference?

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

We don't have the gold plates, we don't know where geographically the places are in the BoM, we do know where the geography is in the Bible. The scale tips toward the Bible.

We know the geography of Greece too. It doesn't tip the scale in Zeus's favor though, does it?

[cdowis]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

We don't have the gold plates,

We don't have the stone tablets of the Ten commandments.  All we have are manuscripts written thousands of years after Moses.

we don't know where geographically the places are in the BoM,

We don't know where the Ark of the Covenant is, nor the location of the stone tablets.  We don't know how the entire earth was covered with water, nor how the sun stood still for  a day while Josiah's armies battled.  The achaeologists have been unable to confirm the story of Moses and Israelites living in Egypt and going on a journey to the promise land.

we do know where the geography is in the Bible.

We know the geography of the Arabian Peninsula, and can generally track where Lehi and his party traveled.   We also have made additional discoveries for the location of the Nephites in Central America, specifically mesoamerica.

The scale tips toward the Bible.

We accept ALL of the word of God, including the Bible and modern revelation.  We have contemporaneous eyewitness accounts, a cloud of witnesses, of specific divine manifestations, including angels, the appearance of Jesus Christ, divine beings bestowing priesthood authority upon individuals., and eyewitness testimonies of the plates.

WE have no eyewitness accounts of many of the supernatural events in the Bible, except as a general narrative.  Specifically, no Egyptian record of the extraordinary  events found in the book of Exodus.

 

Edited October 14, 2016 by cdowis

[Tacenda]

Cdowis:

http://www.essentialbibleblog.com/2013/03/top-10-reasons-bible-is-true.html

Quoted below:

I've got a good friend who's probably a lot like you.  He loves the Bible and does his best to read it and live it every day.  There's one problem.  Some of his friends say the Bible isn’t true, and he's not always sure how to respond.   So I've created a list of the best arguments I can find for the credibility of the Bible. Interested?  Okay, here are myTop 10 Reasons the Bible is True. (If I missed any that are important to you, please add them in the comment section below.  I'd love to hear from you.)

1. Manuscript Evidence.  There are way more copies of the biblical manuscripts, with remarkable consistency between them, than there are for any of the classics like Plato, Aristotle and Socrates.  "There is no body of ancient literature in the world which enjoys such a wealth of good textual attestation as the New Testament."  F.F. Bruce, The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?
2. Archaeological Evidence.  Again and again archaeological discoveries have verified the accuracy of the historical and cultural references in the Bible.  The more they dig, the more it confirms the Bible.  “It is important to note that Near Eastern archaeology has demonstrated the historical and geographical reliability of the Bible in many important areas.” E.M. Blaiklock, The New International Dictionary of Biblical Archaeology.
3. Eyewitness Accounts.  The Bible was written by people who witnessed the events it describes; many were persecuted or martyred but never changed their story.  Would you die for something you knew was untrue? “It is no moderate approbation of Scripture that it has been sealed by the blood of so many witnesses, especially when we reflect that they died to render testimony to the faith …with a firm and constant, yet sober, zeal toward God.” John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion.
4. Corroborating Accounts. There are plenty of references in non-biblical sources to the events described in the Bible. The Jewish historian Josephus, born in 37 AD, “provide(s) indispensable background material for the student of…New Testament history. In them, we meet many figures well known to us from the New Testament. Some of his writings provide direct commentary on New Testament references.”  J.D. Douglas, ed., The New Bible Dictionary.
5. Literary Consistency.  The Bible contains 66 books written over 1,500 years by 40 different writers but it tells one "big story" of God's plan of salvation that culminated in Jesus Christ.  You can't even pass a secret around a circle of 12 people and get the same message at the end. “There is indeed a wide variety of human authors and themes (in the Bible). Yet behind these…there lies a single divine author with a single unifying theme.” John R.W. Stott, Understanding the Bible.
6. Prophetic Consistency.  There are over 300 specific prophecies in the Old Testament that are fulfilled in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ in the New Testament.  “The very dimension of the sheer fulfillment of prophecy of the Old Testament Scriptures should be enough to convince anyone that we are dealing with a supernatural piece of literature….God has himself planted within the scriptures an internal consistency that bears witness that this is his Word.” R.C. Sproul, Now That’s a Good Question.
7. Expert Scrutiny. The early church had extremely high standards for what books were judged to be authentic and therefore included in the Bible. A book had to have been written by an Apostle or someone in their immediate circle, had to conform to basic Christian faith and had to be in widespread use among many churches. This was a careful process of “the people of God in many different places, coming to recognize what other believers elsewhere found to be true”; these writings were truly God’s word. G.J. Wenham, J.A. Motyer, D.A. Carson and R.T. France,The New Bible Commentary.
8. Leader Acceptance.  A majority of the greatest leaders and thinkers in history have affirmed the truth and impact of the Bible. "I believe the Bible is the best gift God has ever given man. All the good from the Savior of the world is communicated to us through this book. But for it we could not know right from wrong.” Abraham Lincoln.
9. Global Influence.  The Bible has had a greater influence on the laws, art, ethics, music and literature of world civilization than any other book in history.  Can you think of one that even comes close?  “Christianity”, as set forth in the Bible “is responsible for a disproportionately large number of the humanitarian advances in the history of civilization—in education, medicine, law, the fine arts, working for human rights and even in the natural sciences….” Craig L. Blomberg, in Christian Apologetics: A Comprehensive Case for Biblical Faith.
10. Changed Lives.  From St. Augustine to Martin Luther to Joni Eareckson Tada to countless everyday men, women and children, the words of the Bible have transformed lives unmistakably and forever.  “As unnamed masses of Christians down through the ages have shown us, the Bible is the most reliable place to turn for finding the key to a life of love andgood works.” T.M. Moore, The Case for the Bible.

I hope this list helps you become more confident about the Bible.  But don’t forget: whenever you have an opportunity to defend God's Word, be sure to “speak the truth in love” (Eph. 4:15).  No one listens to an angry Bible reader.  (If I missed any reasons that are important to you, please add them in the comment section below.  I'd love to hear from you.)

 

 

 

 

by Whitney T. Kuniholm

Edited October 14, 2016 by Tacenda

[Kenngo1969]

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

We don't have the gold plates, we don't know where geographically the places are in the BoM, we do know where the geography is in the Bible. The scale tips toward the Bible.

Huh.   Color me surprised.   I didn't know that the Bible and the Book of Mormon are in competition with one another.  See Mormon 7:8-10; 2 Nephi 33:10-11, 14; Ezekiel 37:16-17. 

 

[mfbukowski]

13 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

I put feelings in quotations marks for the very reason you mention.  It is the people I know who have left the church that deride testimonies not supported by evidence as mere 'feelings'.  I know they are spiritual BUT those spiritual experiences are exactly the same and carry the same weight of witness for me for the BOM and Christ, as well as all other aspects of the gospel I believe or know to be true.  I can't learn that one spiritual witness was false without doubting all my others.  I am very thankful for a loving HF that helps me choose faith every day.

Our very being is based on feelings- everything important in our lives is based on feelings.  Whom we should marry is based on feelings.  Yes some reason goes into it- if you fall in love with a cannibal it is probably not wise to follow those feelings, but the feelings are still primary.  Where we go to school, what our preferences in life, whether we should study literature or medicine, our politics, what we think is moral or immoral, most how we interact with the world is based on feelings!

The purpose of religion is not to give us objective data about the nature or existence of God- the purpose of religion is to give our feelings a sense of peace and knowledge of our place in the universe and a sense of trust that in the long run it will all turn out ok.  Religion is a refuge in the storm, what enables us to cope with death disease and the horrible things that happen in the world.

Testimony is based on trust in God.  It is that knowledge deep inside us- perhaps it is our unconscious- but why does it matter?  It is what gets us through those dark nights of despair and pain

People who are looking for objective evidence about God- how much he weighs, how he created the universe, when the millenium will start etc etc are barking up the wrong tree.  Religion and testimony are about bringing peace into our hearts.  That is the value of religion  and how it functions in our lives

[mfbukowski]

13 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I don't understand this faith in men, vs. God. 

Especially when men are only gods who haven't grown up yet.  We all make mistakes on the path to growing up.  You don't trust what IS in anyone - you trust what they may become.

[mfbukowski]

13 hours ago, Tacenda said:

This is the saddest thing to me. I really feel for you. You must hold on to belief in the church for fear of losing your belief in God, it appears. 

https://www.openbible.info/topics/our_feelings

Jeremiah 17:9 ESV / 218 helpful votes

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?

Proverbs 28:26 ESV / 165 helpful votes

Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.

1 John 3:20 ESV / 164 helpful votes

For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

Proverbs 14:12-13 ESV / 97 helpful votes

There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death. Even in laughter the heart may ache, and the end of joy may be grief.

Proverbs 12:15 ESV / 84 helpful votes

The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man listens to advice.

2 Timothy 3:5 ESV / 34 helpful votes

Having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.

Ephesians 4:18 ESV / 31 helpful votes

They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart.

1 Corinthians 3:16 ESV / 29 helpful votes

Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?

Proverbs 29:11 ESV / 27 helpful votes

A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back.

1 John 2:15 ESV / 26 helpful votes

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Isaiah 41:10 ESV / 26 helpful votes

Fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.

Hebrews 5:14 ESV / 20 helpful votes

But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

Psalm 40:3 ESV / 20 helpful votes

He put a new song in my mouth, a song of praise to our God. Many will see and fear, and put their trust in the Lord.

Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV / 16 helpful votes

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Psalm 63:1-11 ESV / 12 helpful votes

A Psalm of David, when he was in the wilderness of Judah. O God, you are my God; earnestly I seek you; my soul thirsts for you; my flesh faints for you, as in a dry and weary land where there is no water. So I have looked upon you in the sanctuary, beholding your power and glory. Because your steadfast love is better than life, my lips will praise you. So I will bless you as long as I live; in your name I will lift up my hands. My soul will be satisfied as with fat and rich food, and my mouth will praise you with joyful lips, ...

Isaiah 14:13-15 ESV / 7 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful

You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’ But you are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit.

John 3:16-17 ESV / 5 helpful votes

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Uh, how are you supposed to know ANY of these are true then, by ignoring our feelings that they ARE true?

Why believe the bible at all if we are to ignore our feelings?   What kind of a fool would you have to be to believe the bible is from God without a testimony?

[mfbukowski]

13 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Thank you, it's people like you in the church that probably keep me in. But without the church, I can still believe in God. Can you? I bet you would.

Why believe in God if you throw out feelings???  Feelings are the core of testimony

Edited October 14, 2016 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

9 hours ago, Foreigner said:

Examples, please?

Uh every prophecy about the last days..

I love it when someone says the rapture will happen on a definite date and it doesn't.    How many time does it say that Jesus will be back "in this generation"?

It's been what- a hundred generations?

[why me]

I think that many members who claim to have a testimony only have a testimony about which they know. They do not have a testimony about the information that is not known. If one has a testimony of the lds church and has received a testimony from the spirit, the unknown should not have such a terrible effect on the people who claim to have a testimony. I think that the problem is that people only have a testimony about what they know about the church and not about the church as the true church of christ. 

Edited October 14, 2016 by why me