LDS testimonies...built on sand?

[Tacenda]

30 minutes ago, rongo said:

This reminds me of a conversation I had with a member in another ward we lived in. While flying somewhere on business, he sat next to an evangelical minister. As they talked on the flight, Mormonism naturally came up. The minister asked him, hypothetically, what it would do to his belief in Jesus Christ if he could prove beyond doubt that the Book of Mormon was a fraud. He told me that he answered that it would absolutely devastate his belief in Christ. I thought about that, and told him that, while it would sadden me greatly, my belief and knowledge about Christ are not dependent on the Book of Mormon. If Joseph Smith/BoM, etc. were a fraud, I would still know that God exists and that the atonement is real. I have felt it in my life, and nothing changes that. 

Don't get me wrong. The Book of Mormon is vitally important (I happen to believe that it being literally true would be an insurmountable problem --- no inspired fiction for me!). It is a tangible witness of the truthfulness and divinity of Joseph Smith's call as a prophet. But, I have to say that my knowledge about God and relationship with Heavenly Father and Jesus and the Holy Ghost does not depend on the Book of Mormon. It relates to my personal experience interacting with God (all three of the Godhead). 

It's too bad that a lot of ex-LDS aren't like you, but base everything on Mormonism being the end all be all and upon leaving it, will not believe in anything, since their God was the Mormon God.

I believe Mormonism can help lead us to God/Christ, just like any other good church would. I don't understand how some, even recently, said they couldn't have any other faith, if the church turned out to be false. 

[Maestrophil]

38 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

It's too bad that a lot of ex-LDS aren't like you, but base everything on Mormonism being the end all be all and upon leaving it, will not believe in anything, since their God was the Mormon God.

I believe Mormonism can help lead us to God/Christ, just like any other good church would. I don't understand how some, even recently, said they couldn't have any other faith, if the church turned out to be false. 

Well, the conundrum for me (and I assume many, like my family who have left the church after losing testimonies) is that the same process and feelings that revealed to me the BOM is true, is also the same way I know Christ is the Redeemer.  If the BOM then were to be patently false, how could I then trust my witness of Christ - or any other spiritual thing, for that matter?  I would feel like I could never trust my 'feelings' again and would rely on imperial evidence alone to draw my conclusions about life.  

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

Well, the conundrum for me (and I assume many, like my family who have left the church after losing testimonies) is that the same process and feelings that revealed to me the BOM is true, is also the same way I know Christ is the Redeemer.  If the BOM then were to be patently false, how could I then trust my witness of Christ - or any other spiritual thing, for that matter?  I would feel like I could never trust my 'feelings' again and would rely on imperial evidence alone to draw my conclusions about life.

Brigham Young -
It is folly in the extreme for persons to say that they love God, when they do not love their brethren; and it is of no use for them to say that they have confidence in God, when they have none in righteous men, for they do not know anything about God...
...If we have any lack of confidence in those whom the Lord has appointed to lead the people, how can we have confidence in a being whom we know nothing about? It is nonsense to talk about it. It will weaken a person quicker to lose confidence in those who dictate the affairs of God's kingdom on the earth, than to say “I do not know whether there is a God or not, and I care nothing about Him.” A man or woman will not be prepared to be taken by the enemy, and led captive by the devil so quickly for disbelieving in a being they do not know about, as for disbelieving in those whom they do know.

[rongo]

Just now, Maestrophil said:

Well, the conundrum for me (and I assume many, like my family who have left the church after losing testimonies) is that the same process and feelings that revealed to me the BOM is true, is also the same way I know Christ is the Redeemer.  If the BOM then were to be patently false, how could I then trust my witness of Christ - or any other spiritual thing, for that matter?  I would feel like I could never trust my 'feelings' again and would rely on empirical evidence alone to draw my conclusions about life.  

I met with a new member of my ward on Sunday. She had called me a month ago, wanting to talk to her potential new bishop before deciding to move. She is an RM with a degree in psychology and experience as a counselor. We talked on the phone about her faith crisis/testimony issues, and we spoke at length in person when we met. 

She is questioning everything because she feels unsure of anything. She isn't negative towards the Church (not at all), but she feels like the things she unquestionably "knew" when she was younger are now thrown into hopeless uncertainty. I shared with her that my testimony consists of things I know, and other things that I believe (the resurrection is one example, for me, of something that I believe). D&C 46 makes it clear that the rewards are the same for those who "only" believe vs. those who "know" (and, in fact, both knowing and believing are individual gifts of the Spirit, per D&C 46). She liked that distinction, so, we started trying to unpack what she knows and what she believes (or at this point, would like to believe). It was really neat to see a light go on in her eyes as we discussed the relatively few things that we "know" --- most things are believed. I mentioned (and this resonated with her) that the things that I know, I really know, and I know (without being able to describe in words) in such a way that I know the difference between that and wishful thinking, auto-suggestion, etc. 

For people like you describe who feel very fragile and uncertain about trusting any "feelings" again about anything, the only answer I have is that spiritual things are different. But, you have to be able to feel for yourself how they are different from other areas of belief in your life. They are different, but it is extremely hard to specify how. 

[rockpond]

17 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Brigham Young -
It is folly in the extreme for persons to say that they love God, when they do not love their brethren; and it is of no use for them to say that they have confidence in God, when they have none in righteous men, for they do not know anything about God...
...If we have any lack of confidence in those whom the Lord has appointed to lead the people, how can we have confidence in a being whom we know nothing about? It is nonsense to talk about it. It will weaken a person quicker to lose confidence in those who dictate the affairs of God's kingdom on the earth, than to say “I do not know whether there is a God or not, and I care nothing about Him.” A man or woman will not be prepared to be taken by the enemy, and led captive by the devil so quickly for disbelieving in a being they do not know about, as for disbelieving in those whom they do know.

So says that prophet responsible for a good portion of the betrayal I felt from those in whom I had placed confidence.  Turns out he was a racist who led the church astray.  Oops.

I'm going to go ahead and call this false doctrine, IMHO.  I think it is folly to place confidence in men... the arm of the flesh.  Brigham Young was righteous in many ways, but not in all ways.  Confidence should be placed in our Savior, His Father, and the Spirit.  None else.

Edited October 13, 2016 by rockpond

[HappyJackWagon]

4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Brigham Young -
It is folly in the extreme for persons to say that they love God, when they do not love their brethren; and it is of no use for them to say that they have confidence in God, when they have none in righteous men, for they do not know anything about God...
...If we have any lack of confidence in those whom the Lord has appointed to lead the people, how can we have confidence in a being whom we know nothing about? It is nonsense to talk about it. It will weaken a person quicker to lose confidence in those who dictate the affairs of God's kingdom on the earth, than to say “I do not know whether there is a God or not, and I care nothing about Him.” A man or woman will not be prepared to be taken by the enemy, and led captive by the devil so quickly for disbelieving in a being they do not know about, as for disbelieving in those whom they do know.

Or you have the quote in which Brigham expresses doubts about every word of scripture being from God. Who were the scriptures presumably written by? Prophets? He's contradicting himself but it's not the only time.

Quote

“I have heard ministers of the gospel declare that they believed every word in the Bible was the word of God. I have said to them “you believe more than I do.” I believe the words of God are there; I believe the words of the devil are there; I believe that the words of men and the words of angels are there;”  Brigham Young - pp. 276-281 - Journal of Discourses
Discourses of Brigham Young : 11 : 124 : - Discourses of Brigham Young : 11 : 129 : 5

Of course we have this quote by Cannon... He seems to realize that placing trust in men is not as wise as placing trust in God. He doesn't claim that it is impossible for men to trust God if they don't trust man like Brigham does.

Quote

“Do not, brethren, put your trust in a man though he be a bishop, an apostle, or a president. If you do, they will fail you at some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support be gone...”
- Apostle George Q. Cannon, Millennial Star, v. 53, pp. 658-659, as quoted in Gospel Truth, v. 1, p. 319

Or we have this classic quote from Joseph Smith...

Quote

"We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them -- even if they knew it was wrong. But such obedience as this is worse than folly to us. It is slavery in the extreme. The man who would thus willingly degrade himself should not claim a rank among intelligent beings until he turns from his folly. A man of God would despise this idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the Saints were told to do by their presidents, they should do it without any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves." -- Joseph Smith, Jr. in the Millennial Star, volume 14, number 38, pages 593-595."

There is a common mistake in the church which the Brigham Young quote illustrates. It conflates men with God while there is plenty in the scriptures and among leaders that warn against putting trust in the arm of the flesh because that flesh will let you down.

[rockpond]

10 minutes ago, rongo said:

I met with a new member of my ward on Sunday. She had called me a month ago, wanting to talk to her potential new bishop before deciding to move. She is an RM with a degree in psychology and experience as a counselor. We talked on the phone about her faith crisis/testimony issues, and we spoke at length in person when we met. 

She is questioning everything because she feels unsure of anything. She isn't negative towards the Church (not at all), but she feels like the things she unquestionably "knew" when she was younger are now thrown into hopeless uncertainty. I shared with her that my testimony consists of things I know, and other things that I believe (the resurrection is one example, for me, of something that I believe). D&C 46 makes it clear that the rewards are the same for those who "only" believe vs. those who "know" (and, in fact, both knowing and believing are individual gifts of the Spirit, per D&C 46). She liked that distinction, so, we started trying to unpack what she knows and what she believes (or at this point, would like to believe). It was really neat to see a light go on in her eyes as we discussed the relatively few things that we "know" --- most things are believed. I mentioned (and this resonated with her) that the things that I know, I really know, and I know (without being able to describe in words) in such a way that I know the difference between that and wishful thinking, auto-suggestion, etc. 

For people like you describe who feel very fragile and uncertain about trusting any "feelings" again about anything, the only answer I have is that spiritual things are different. But, you have to be able to feel for yourself how they are different from other areas of belief in your life. They are different, but it is extremely hard to specify how. 

Nicely done, Bishop.

[JLHPROF]

5 minutes ago, rockpond said:

So says that prophet responsible for a good portion of the betrayal I felt from those in whom I had placed confidence.  Turns out he was a racist who led the church astray.  Oops.

I don't believe he did lead the Church astray at all.
But you are welcome to believe that.

[rockpond]

Just now, JLHPROF said:

I don't believe he did lead the Church astray at all.
But you are welcome to believe that.

I felt my response was incomplete and so I just edited it to add a bit if you care to go back and look.  If not, that's fine as well.

For me it is clear that he led the church astray with the priesthood and temple ban.  But I know that not all see it that way and I accept that.

[Maestrophil]

12 minutes ago, rongo said:

I met with a new member of my ward on Sunday. She had called me a month ago, wanting to talk to her potential new bishop before deciding to move. She is an RM with a degree in psychology and experience as a counselor. We talked on the phone about her faith crisis/testimony issues, and we spoke at length in person when we met. 

She is questioning everything because she feels unsure of anything. She isn't negative towards the Church (not at all), but she feels like the things she unquestionably "knew" when she was younger are now thrown into hopeless uncertainty. I shared with her that my testimony consists of things I know, and other things that I believe (the resurrection is one example, for me, of something that I believe). D&C 46 makes it clear that the rewards are the same for those who "only" believe vs. those who "know" (and, in fact, both knowing and believing are individual gifts of the Spirit, per D&C 46). She liked that distinction, so, we started trying to unpack what she knows and what she believes (or at this point, would like to believe). It was really neat to see a light go on in her eyes as we discussed the relatively few things that we "know" --- most things are believed. I mentioned (and this resonated with her) that the things that I know, I really know, and I know (without being able to describe in words) in such a way that I know the difference between that and wishful thinking, auto-suggestion, etc. 

For people like you describe who feel very fragile and uncertain about trusting any "feelings" again about anything, the only answer I have is that spiritual things are different. But, you have to be able to feel for yourself how they are different from other areas of belief in your life. They are different, but it is extremely hard to specify how. 

I put feelings in quotations marks for the very reason you mention.  It is the people I know who have left the church that deride testimonies not supported by evidence as mere 'feelings'.  I know they are spiritual BUT those spiritual experiences are exactly the same and carry the same weight of witness for me for the BOM and Christ, as well as all other aspects of the gospel I believe or know to be true.  I can't learn that one spiritual witness was false without doubting all my others.  I am very thankful for a loving HF that helps me choose faith every day.

[JLHPROF]

5 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Or you have the quote in which Brigham expresses doubts about every word of scripture being from God. Who were the scriptures presumably written by? Prophets? He's contradicting himself but it's not the only time.

I see no contradiction here.
Brigham said on several occasions that the scriptures were not as important as the living oracles.
The Bible does contain all sorts of words.

But let's be clear - the quote I provided was NOT about the prophet as source for doctrine.
The quote I provided specifically addressed the idea that you can claim to follow God/Christ (who you haven't met and only know of through the words of men) while at the same time proclaiming your lack of confidence in those men who teach of God and Christ.
I agree with Brigham - it IS folly to claim you can do that.

Quote

Of course we have this quote by Cannon... He seems to realize that placing trust in men is not as wise as placing trust in God. He doesn't claim that it is impossible for men to trust God if they don't trust man like Brigham does.

Or we have this classic quote from Joseph Smith...

There is a common mistake in the church which the Brigham Young quote illustrates. It conflates men with God while there is plenty in the scriptures and among leaders that warn against putting trust in the arm of the flesh because that flesh will let you down.

If you can learn to reconcile all these quotes by boiling them down to their correct principles you will see there is no contradiction and you will see the correct way we should be applying them.

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

It's too bad that a lot of ex-LDS aren't like you, but base everything on Mormonism being the end all be all and upon leaving it, will not believe in anything, since their God was the Mormon God.

I believe Mormonism can help lead us to God/Christ, just like any other good church would. I don't understand how some, even recently, said they couldn't have any other faith, if the church turned out to be false. 

I was brought up thinking that the cornerstone of the church..was the Book of Mormon.  Now..with the historicity questions and of course my own feelings of Joseph Smith..there was no reason for me to stay. Now although having the essays really is a step up for the church..it also confirmed that I had done the right thing.  So many things I believed in was no longer there..or changed from a God who is never changing.  This does not speak well to me for revelation.

[rongo]

6 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Nicely done, Bishop.

Thanks. I'll add that she admitted that she can't deny that God exists, because she has felt him in ways that transcend explanations of brain chemistry alone. I told her that's a good starting point, and to put that coal into her pouch (she had spent time doing Anasazi-style youth counseling, and I compared it to when they carry their fire with them by putting a coal into a pouch where it will still be hot enough that night when building another fire). 

[Tacenda]

14 minutes ago, rockpond said:

So says that prophet responsible for a good portion of the betrayal I felt from those in whom I had placed confidence.  Turns out he was a racist who led the church astray.  Oops.

I'm going to go ahead and call this false doctrine, IMHO.  I think it is folly to place confidence in men... the arm of the flesh.  Brigham Young was righteous in many ways, but not in all ways.  Confidence should be placed in our Savior, His Father, and the Spirit.  None else.

I don't understand this faith in men, vs. God. 

[Tacenda]

36 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

Well, the conundrum for me (and I assume many, like my family who have left the church after losing testimonies) is that the same process and feelings that revealed to me the BOM is true, is also the same way I know Christ is the Redeemer.  If the BOM then were to be patently false, how could I then trust my witness of Christ - or any other spiritual thing, for that matter?  I would feel like I could never trust my 'feelings' again and would rely on imperial evidence alone to draw my conclusions about life.  

This is the saddest thing to me. I really feel for you. You must hold on to belief in the church for fear of losing your belief in God, it appears. 

https://www.openbible.info/topics/our_feelings

Jeremiah 17:9 ESV / 218 helpful votes

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?

Proverbs 28:26 ESV / 165 helpful votes

Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.

1 John 3:20 ESV / 164 helpful votes

For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.

Proverbs 14:12-13 ESV / 97 helpful votes

There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death. Even in laughter the heart may ache, and the end of joy may be grief.

Proverbs 12:15 ESV / 84 helpful votes

The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man listens to advice.

2 Timothy 3:5 ESV / 34 helpful votes

Having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.

Ephesians 4:18 ESV / 31 helpful votes

They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart.

1 Corinthians 3:16 ESV / 29 helpful votes

Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?

Proverbs 29:11 ESV / 27 helpful votes

A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back.

1 John 2:15 ESV / 26 helpful votes

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Isaiah 41:10 ESV / 26 helpful votes

Fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.

Hebrews 5:14 ESV / 20 helpful votes

But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

Psalm 40:3 ESV / 20 helpful votes

He put a new song in my mouth, a song of praise to our God. Many will see and fear, and put their trust in the Lord.

Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV / 16 helpful votes

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Psalm 63:1-11 ESV / 12 helpful votes

A Psalm of David, when he was in the wilderness of Judah. O God, you are my God; earnestly I seek you; my soul thirsts for you; my flesh faints for you, as in a dry and weary land where there is no water. So I have looked upon you in the sanctuary, beholding your power and glory. Because your steadfast love is better than life, my lips will praise you. So I will bless you as long as I live; in your name I will lift up my hands. My soul will be satisfied as with fat and rich food, and my mouth will praise you with joyful lips, ...

Isaiah 14:13-15 ESV / 7 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful

You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’ But you are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit.

John 3:16-17 ESV / 5 helpful votes

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Edited October 13, 2016 by Tacenda

[rockpond]

6 minutes ago, rongo said:

Thanks. I'll add that she admitted that she can't deny that God exists, because she has felt him in ways that transcend explanations of brain chemistry alone. I told her that's a good starting point, and to put that coal into her pouch (she had spent time doing Anasazi-style youth counseling, and I compared it to when they carry their fire with them by putting a coal into a pouch where it will still be hot enough that night when building another fire). 

Great metaphor.

[JLHPROF]

14 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I felt my response was incomplete and so I just edited it to add a bit if you care to go back and look.  If not, that's fine as well.

For me it is clear that he led the church astray with the priesthood and temple ban.  But I know that not all see it that way and I accept that.

" I think it is folly to place confidence in men... the arm of the flesh.  Brigham Young was righteous in many ways, but not in all ways.  Confidence should be placed in our Savior, His Father, and the Spirit.  None else. "

 

 

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I don't understand this faith in men, vs. God.

And how, as Brigham pointed out, do you come to know any information about God or Christ except through the words of man?
How can you place confidence in a being you know nothing about?

I fully agree that we can commune with God through prayer, feel of his spirit and comfort, and even receive some guidance.

But we would know nothing at all of God without the words of righteous men.  We wouldn't even know to pray were it not for the recorded words of men.
And creating a false separation between God and his servants shows as much a lack of confidence in God as it does in man.

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

This is the saddest thing to me. I really feel for you. You must hold on to belief in the church for fear of losing your belief in God, it appears.

I fail to see why a stack of quotes from the Bible should carry any more weight that the Book of Mormon.
I have received a testimony of the Book of Mormon and the Bible.

If my testimony of the Book of Mormon began to weaken I see no reason why the same kind of testimony of the Bible should stand.  The witnesses were the same.  If I began to consider one false, I should be forced to doubt the other.

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

 

 

 

And how, as Brigham pointed out, do you come to know any information about God or Christ except through the words of man?
How can you place confidence in a being you know nothing about?

I fully agree that we can commune with God through prayer, feel of his spirit and comfort, and even receive some guidance.

But we would know nothing at all of God without the words of righteous men.  We wouldn't even know to pray were it not for the recorded words of men.
And creating a false separation between God and his servants shows as much a lack of confidence in God as it does in man.

Good points.  I had never really thought of it that way before.

[rockpond]

3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

And how, as Brigham pointed out, do you come to know any information about God or Christ except through the words of man?
How can you place confidence in a being you know nothing about?

I fully agree that we can commune with God through prayer, feel of his spirit and comfort, and even receive some guidance.

But we would know nothing at all of God without the words of righteous men.  We wouldn't even know to pray were it not for the recorded words of men.
And creating a false separation between God and his servants shows as much a lack of confidence in God as it does in man.

Sustain them.  Listen/read and study their words as the appointed servants.  Then place your confidence in the spiritual confirmation of those words.

The confidence I had in the men who led and lead the church is what led me into a deep and dark faith crisis when I realized how often they erred.

[Maestrophil]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

This is the saddest thing to me. I really feel for you. You must hold on to belief in the church for fear of losing your belief in God, it appears. 

I am sorry you find it sad, Tacenda.  I find joy in it.  My belief in God and the Gospel of Jesus sprang from the LDS Church. I believe it is true with as much surety as I believe in God. 

I also believe all religions that teach good come from God, and all truth is universal though. So I don't think there are 'wrong' religious choices as long as they lead to progression towards God. 

It saddens me to see people struggle with faith in the LDS church, when I feel a love for what it has brought to my life, regardless of it's human failings and flaws.  But I completely understand...  I have seen (read) your struggles Tacenda, and know that you are OK for feeling the doubts and fears you feel, and that with time and faith, reconciling these apparent conflicts in the church with faith in the restoration CAN be possible. It happened for me.  Again - I acknowledge that one size does not fit all and we all 'hear differently' spiritually, as Pres. Uchtdorf said at women's conference.  

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Sustain them.  Listen/read and study their words as the appointed servants.  Then place your confidence in the spiritual confirmation of those words.

The confidence I had in the men who led and lead the church is what led me into a deep and dark faith crisis when I realized how often they erred.

And if the Bible is to be believed, if a prophet isn't 100 percent correct on their prophecy, that makes them false. That is what gets me. I love the church and the people so much, but am I going to be condemned for believing in a faith that had prophets that got it wrong? 

[Tacenda]

3 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

I am sorry you find it sad, Tacenda.  I find joy in it.  My belief in God and the Gospel of Jesus sprang from the LDS Church. I believe it is true with as much surety as I believe in God. 

I also believe all religions that teach good come from God, and all truth is universal though. So I don't think there are 'wrong' religious choices as long as they lead to progression towards God. 

It saddens me to see people struggle with faith in the LDS church, when I feel a love for what it has brought to my life, regardless of it's human failings and flaws.  But I completely understand...  I have seen (read) your struggles Tacenda, and know that you are OK for feeling the doubts and fears you feel, and that with time and faith, reconciling these apparent conflicts in the church with faith in the restoration CAN be possible. It happened for me.  Again - I acknowledge that one size does not fit all and we all 'hear differently' spiritually, as Pres. Uchtdorf said at women's conference.  

Thank you, it's people like you in the church that probably keep me in. But without the church, I can still believe in God. Can you? I bet you would.

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

And if the Bible is to be believed, if a prophet isn't 100 percent correct on their prophecy, that makes them false. That is what gets me. I love the church and the people so much, but am I going to be condemned for believing in a faith that had prophets that got it wrong? 

Where does your testimony of the Bible come from?  

[Tacenda]

Just now, bluebell said:

Where does your testimony of the Bible come from?  

Well, good question...I guess the Dead Sea Scrolls help a lot.