LDS testimonies...built on sand?

[Tacenda]

21 minutes ago, bluebell said:

You haven't yet answered the question of why it matters?

Is there a "thou shalt love the Bible more than any other scriptures" commandment somewhere that I don't know about?

Where does your belief that no other scripture should be studied more than the biblical scriptures come from?

I'm concerned because some people let go of their belief in God when their belief in the BoM is no longer. Why here on this board I've witnessed someone say without it their faith in God wouldn't be there. That is a problem with LDS. We need to show that truth is also in the Bible. Or the God in it is true, not just the LDS God. And I wish Pres. Hinckley had not said we believe in a different Jesus, or that Joseph said the Bible is only correct as far as it is translated correctly but doesn't say it about the BoM.

[bluebell]

15 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I'm concerned because some people let go of their belief in God when their belief in the BoM is no longer. Why here on this board I've witnessed someone say without it their faith in God wouldn't be there. That is a problem with LDS. We need to show that truth is also in the Bible. Or the God in it is true, not just the LDS God. And I wish Pres. Hinckley had not said we believe in a different Jesus, or that Joseph said the Bible is only correct as far as it is translated correctly but doesn't say it about the BoM.

I think that happens because the way that someone knows the BOM is true if often the same way they know the Bible is true. So if one becomes false then the other must be as well in a lot of people's thinking. 

Has the spirit ever told you the Bible is truly God's word?

[waveslider]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Thanks for the imput! I remember once when visiting teaching an older woman, with my companion. I mentioned that I thought it would be fun to go to a Bible study. They looked at me like I was going to study Satanism. They were aghast that I would want to do that. It's no wonder that some on this board could no longer have a belief in Jesus or God if Mormonism and the Book of Mormon is found to be false. They must not have a belief in the Bible much, IMO.

Perhaps it has more to do with it being called a Bible study, but in reality it is only listening to one preacher's interpretation of the Bible. At least that has been the case with each and every so called, "Bible Study," I have ever attended. I always left very disappointed that you can't even raise your hand and ask the questions, and bring up scripture that points to other points of view than what that particular preacher may be preaching. I would willingly go to many Bible studies if they actually were meetings where you could study the Bible instead of just getting indoctrinated by the preacher on his views alone. The Bible won't ever prove the BoM to be false. It only can if someone twists the meanings of certain passages while ignoring others.

Edited October 16, 2016 by waveslider
Wrong tense in a sentence.

[Garden Girl]

8 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I'm concerned because some people let go of their belief in God when their belief in the BoM is no longer. Why here on this board I've witnessed someone say without it their faith in God wouldn't be there. That is a problem with LDS. We need to show that truth is also in the Bible. Or the God in it is true, not just the LDS God. And I wish Pres. Hinckley had not said we believe in a different Jesus, or that Joseph said the Bible is only correct as far as it is translated correctly but doesn't say it about the BoM.

Tacenda... 

Can you show me any LDS teaching that says that there is not truth to be found in the Bible?  (I'm listening to BYU Radio... the speaker is Matthew Gray... and he is quoting biblical scripture as I type... namely Matt 6:19 - 21 (one of my favorites)... as part of his talk.

You say you don't like to sit and read scripture and prefer podcasts, if I understood you correctly... perhaps it's time to put your nose in the scriptures, including BoM and D&C as well as the Bible, and do some serious study on your own.  And books/articles by gen authorities that you can study and ponder, and check footnotes and cited scriptures so that you get a clear understanding of what we teach...

GG 

 

[waveslider]

8 hours ago, Foreigner said:

Someone even charged the Bible with failed last days prophecies, while there is no time determined there, and general descriptions are the same in D&C. At the other hand, the Church does have last days prophecies which seem to fail quite evidently (D&C 84:1-5). Here more attention would be worthwhile.

I assume you think D&C 84:1-5 is a failure because of this: "For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house." (D&C 84:5) If that is the case then by your own standards this is also a failure: "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." (Luke 21:32) Since it is also talking about a future event that is going to take place just after the future event talked about in D&C 84.

If there is a different reason why you think D&C 84 is a failure then feel free to correct me, but I don't see any other thing that would bring it into question as to being a failure already, before it has even happened yet.

[Tacenda]

24 minutes ago, Garden Girl said:

Tacenda... 

Can you show me any LDS teaching that says that there is not truth to be found in the Bible?  (I'm listening to BYU Radio... the speaker is Matthew Gray... and he is quoting biblical scripture as I type... namely Matt 6:19 - 21 (one of my favorites)... as part of his talk.

You say you don't like to sit and read scripture and prefer podcasts, if I understood you correctly... perhaps it's time to put your nose in the scriptures, including BoM and D&C as well as the Bible, and do some serious study on your own.  And books/articles by gen authorities that you can study and ponder, and check footnotes and cited scriptures so that you get a clear understanding of what we teach...

GG 

 

Well a lot of exLDS that maintain a belief in God, say they found out when they read the Bible with new eyes, it made it so they couldn't believe in the BoM, it discredited the BoM. I guess the Bible to them was more rich than they had ever known. So much more than the snippets we get when studying it only every three years in the church. Complete, verse by verse, context reading. Some critics mentioned that when the Bible is read like that, it opens eyes.  

Do you have a suggestion of where to start in the Bible, any favorite books that you have GG?

Thanks.

[cdowis]

I am thinking that these "new eyes" were based on interpretations from their friends.

Anyway, this Baptist Minister talks about the Bible and the Book of Mormon  

 

[waveslider]

3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Well a lot of exLDS that maintain a belief in God, say they found out when they read the Bible with new eyes, it made it so they couldn't believe in the BoM, it discredited the BoM. I guess the Bible to them was more rich than they had ever known. So much more than the snippets we get when studying it only every three years in the church. Complete, verse by verse, context reading. Some critics mentioned that when the Bible is read like that, it opens eyes.  

Do you have a suggestion of where to start in the Bible, any favorite books that you have GG?

Thanks.

I know this isn't addressed to me, but having read the Bible multiple times from cover to cover, as well as studying it daily, along with the BoM and the rest of the standard works. I find no where that it takes away from my belief in the BoM. On the contrary, it builds my faith in it.

If you haven't ever read the Bible. I would start with the New Testament. I suggest not reading it just to get through it, to say that you have read it, but read it to get to know Christ. To see through His eyes, how He saw through His mortal ministry. Read just enough to give you points to ponder and pray about. A little at a time, so you understand it. I highly suggest not listening to other people's ideas of how Christ is, but just be open to how He really is, as portrayed within the Bible. When you come across verses that you don't understand, don't just plow through it. Stop and reread it, ponder it and pray about it. This isn't a race to hurry up and read it. It is a way to get closer to your Savior than you have ever been. Check foot notes and study what you read. Cross reference things. There is a reason we are to study the scriptures everyday, and it isn't to just be able to say that we have read them.

Search the scriptures. Search them for how they relate to the atonement, to God's plan that Christ has laid out for us to understand and follow. Try to see how it can apply to your life, right now, even though it was written in others' lifetimes and for their sets of circumstances. Search for clues on how to become more like Christ yourself. I can assure you that you will be able to gain a testimony of it, just as much as the BoM, if you simply ask for guidance. Remember there are many interpretations that people get out of scriptures, but the true meaning only can be discerned by the Holy Ghost:

"20  Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21  For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
2 Peter 1:20-21

The ex Mormons who feel that the Bible discredits the BoM don't interpret the Bible with the Spirit, but rather by rationalizations from man. We have been warned about this in our times:

"1  This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2  For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3  Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4  Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5  Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."
2 Timothy 3:1-5

The power is the Holy Ghost. Trust God and he will testify to you personally through the Holy Ghost and you will not feel so confused as you study the scriptures in this way. Once you learn to trust these personal revelations you will be able to then read the rest of the scriptures. The Old Testament isn't as easy to read, but with the help of personal revelation you will understand it. Just my two cents worth anyway.

 

[Rain]

55 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Well a lot of exLDS that maintain a belief in God, say they found out when they read the Bible with new eyes, it made it so they couldn't believe in the BoM, it discredited the BoM. I guess the Bible to them was more rich than they had ever known. So much more than the snippets we get when studying it only every three years in the church. Complete, verse by verse, context reading. Some critics mentioned that when the Bible is read like that, it opens eyes.  

Do you have a suggestion of where to start in the Bible, any favorite books that you have GG?

Thanks.

In reality we only get snippets from the BoM if you don't study it on your own either. 

I had a friend who read the OT like that as she read the BoM.  It actually strengthened her faith in the BoM.  Perhaps instead of listeing to exLDS and critics you could read the bible and the BoM at the time time like you are talking about, verse by verse, and see what YOU find.   

[Garden Girl]

18 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Well a lot of exLDS that maintain a belief in God, say they found out when they read the Bible with new eyes, it made it so they couldn't believe in the BoM, it discredited the BoM. I guess the Bible to them was more rich than they had ever known. So much more than the snippets we get when studying it only every three years in the church. Complete, verse by verse, context reading. Some critics mentioned that when the Bible is read like that, it opens eyes.  

Do you have a suggestion of where to start in the Bible, any favorite books that you have GG?

Thanks.

Tacenda... Cdowis posted a short clip above about a Baptist minister and his view of the BoM... Interesting...

Where to start in the Bible?  My Bible study is more on topics, as listed in the Topical Guide,  etc... Examples:

Matt 6: 19 - 21... Treasures on earth vs treasures in heaven...

Acts 4: 32 - 37 Law of Consecration

Matt 16:19 ... Keys of the Kingdom

Acts 8:12 - 20... Priesthood Authority for giving Holy Ghost

Luke 22:19-20...  Sacrament

and on and on....

I do read the  OT sequentially in Genesis through Deuteronomy (along with the Torah)... and in other areas in both the OT and the New Testament,  but just to start in reading it's been a long time, although the 4-yr study in Gosp Doc is more orderly.  I like the actual sequential record of the BoM.  I'm in the Bible all the time, and so it seems like I'm reading widely... I like the book of Ruth... the account of Deborah... of Daniel... of course the Gospels... I have a commentary plus Strong's Concordance so I think my study is done with open eyes.

GG

[Tacenda]

Some of you blow out of the water that LDS don't read the Bible through and through. Quite impressive my friends!! You know who you are!!

[why me]

On 14.10.2016 at 2:06 AM, Tacenda said:

We don't have the gold plates, we don't know where geographically the places are in the BoM, we do know where the geography is in the Bible. The scale tips toward the Bible.

The gospel narratives were written decades after the events. They were based on memory marratives. And written to shore up the faith of the faithful. And so, they were written for that intent. We have no idea if the words of christ as quoted in the bible are real quotes or just words based on memory or heresay. There is no way that someone who did not witness the event could write exact quotations. Likewise from memory. Also, we have no other find that backs up the bible narratives. They more or less stand alone. The gospel narratives also contradict each other in several parts. So, they are definitely not perfect.

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, why me said:

The gospel narratives were written decades after the events. They were based on memory marratives. And written to shore up the faith of the faithful. And so, they were written for that intent. We have no idea if the words of christ as quoted in the bible are real quotes or just words based on memory or heresay. There is no way that someone who did not witness the event could write exact quotations. Likewise from memory. Also, we have no other find that backs up the bible narratives. They more or less stand alone. The gospel narratives also contradict each other in several parts. So, they are definitely not perfect.

I know of a lot Christians that would disagree, and even bank their lives on the authenticity of the Bible.

[rodheadlee]

14 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Well a lot of exLDS that maintain a belief in God, say they found out when they read the Bible with new eyes, it made it so they couldn't believe in the BoM, it discredited the BoM. I guess the Bible to them was more rich than they had ever known. So much more than the snippets we get when studying it only every three years in the church. Complete, verse by verse, context reading. Some critics mentioned that when the Bible is read like that, it opens eyes.  

Do you have a suggestion of where to start in the Bible, any favorite books that you have GG?

Thanks.

I love the book of Daniel. But Genesis is very important and a great book. It has all the promises God made to Abraham and his seed as well as the whole House of Israel.

Edited October 17, 2016 by rodheadlee

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I know of a lot Christians that would disagree, and even bank their lives on the authenticity of the Bible.

All of what why me said can be true (and it's really easy to see that it is with a little study) and the bible can still be authentic.

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

All of what why me said can be true (and it's really easy to see that it is with a little study) and the bible can still be authentic.

I don't think he would say that about the BoM.

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I don't think he would say that about the BoM.

The BOM is a different book, written and compiled under different circumstances.  It would be really odd if it had all the same issues as the Bible, right?  There are things that we know about the dates of when the gospels were written, for example, that we can't know about the BOM.  It doesn't mean the bible isn't authentic scripture.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I know of a lot Christians that would disagree, and even bank their lives on the authenticity of the Bible.

Because that is their testimony.  The same kind of testimony we have of the Book of Mormon.

Which is why I previously said if I lost my testimony of the Book of Mormon there would be little reason to believe the Bible.  Both testimonies are the same kind coming from the same source.  If one was proven false, the other would be instantly highly doubtful.  There is nothing that makes either one more certain.

Not to mention, that they all teach the same things when viewed correctly.  It's only when one starts following sectarian interpretation of Bible text that any other doctrine begins to appear.

[mfbukowski]

On 10/14/2016 at 3:30 AM, why me said:

I think that many members who claim to have a testimony only have a testimony about which they know. They do not have a testimony about the information that is not known. If one has a testimony of the lds church and has received a testimony from the spirit, the unknown should not have such a terrible effect on the people who claim to have a testimony. I think that the problem is that people only have a testimony about what they know about the church and not about the church as the true church of christ. 

I had a testimony and that erased all I later learned; I had to incorporate Brother Brigham (Blacks, polyamy) into it. Humans are not perfect 

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I had a testimony and that erased all I later learned; I had to incorporate Brother Brigham (Blacks, polyamy) into it. Humans are not perfect 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjao6DiN2DY

It's difficult to have a testimony stay on cement not sand, when you read about things the prophet/prophets have done and when apologists such as Brian Hales (link), doesn't get the facts right, and who do I rely on? I know, I know, the spirit.

Okay, then someone might say it was the wrong spirit. As I read yesterday from a poster when I shared that my niece is a medium and spirits would love for loved ones to reach out. Okay, I'm not suppose to believe my niece was being contacted by good spirits, yet I'm supposed to believe that Joseph Smith was instructed to live polygamy/polyandry by a good spirit, when the fruit wasn't always good.

But the spirits that are reaching my niece are bad, and yet do so many good things, for one, help those with unbelief, believe again. How does that work? You all here have been told the church is true through feelings of the spirit. How do you know that spirit isn't fooling you?

 

[Jeanne]

28 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjao6DiN2DY

It's difficult to have a testimony stay on cement not sand, when you read about things the prophet/prophets have done and when apologists such as Brian Hales (link), doesn't get the facts right, and who do I rely on? I know, I know, the spirit.

Okay, then someone might Who say it was the wrong spirit. As I read yesterday from a poster when I shared that my niece is a medium and spirits would love for loved ones to reach out. Okay, I'm not suppose to believe my niece was being contacted by good spirits, yet I'm supposed to believe that Joseph Smith was instructed to live polygamy/polyandry by a good spirit, when the fruit wasn't always good.

But the spirits that are reaching my niece are bad, and yet do so many good things, for one, help those with unbelief, believe again. How does that work? You all here have been told the church is true through feelings of the spirit. How do you know that spirit isn't fooling you?

 

Who do you rely on,,,good question.  Who on this board knows your niece more than you do?? 

In the early 1970's..I had a cousin who married a very handsome and nice gentleman who was black.  He loved her with all his heart and their children were beautiful, respectful and sweet kids.At the time, my Aunt, who was this cousin's mother, became very ill with cancer.  My grandmother who was brought up in the early church was absolutely devasted...but was she angry at the cancer that was taking the life of her daughter??  No...she believed that because my cousin married a black man had killed her mother..who died a year later.  What does this say about the teachings of BY...sure, we all believe he was wrong in some things..but that and the essay doesn't change one whit on what it did to this family.  It was wrong..and all the words on an essay or new teachings doesn't change the fact that one woman took the words of a prophet and pronounced a decree of blame.

Yes..who is fooling who?  The words of a prophet was made obsolete and yet the damage it caused in one immediate family has lasted a lifetime.  I tend to believe you niece has a special gift. 

 

Edited October 17, 2016 by Jeanne

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjao6DiN2DY

It's difficult to have a testimony stay on cement not sand, when you read about things the prophet/prophets have done and when apologists such as Brian Hales (link), doesn't get the facts right, and who do I rely on? I know, I know, the spirit.

Okay, then someone might say it was the wrong spirit. As I read yesterday from a poster when I shared that my niece is a medium and spirits would love for loved ones to reach out. Okay, I'm not suppose to believe my niece was being contacted by good spirits, yet I'm supposed to believe that Joseph Smith was instructed to live polygamy/polyandry by a good spirit, when the fruit wasn't always good.

But the spirits that are reaching my niece are bad, and yet do so many good things, for one, help those with unbelief, believe again. How does that work? You all here have been told the church is true through feelings of the spirit. How do you know that spirit isn't fooling you?

 

Remember this is about the Lord leading you to him and not "facts" which are based on someone else's version of what happened

Vogel is critic who I have spoken with, and I do not trust anything he says.

Hales is a good scholar whom I know bend over backwards to get it right.

What is important here is you following the theory that gets you closer to God. Don't take people's word for anything. Follow your gut and go with the spirit. Everyone has their own agenda. Follow the spirit not people.

I have had people in my family who have had a gift for knowing the future. For me that's part of life.

Edited October 17, 2016 by mfbukowski
Phone dictation.

[cdowis]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjao6DiN2DY

It's difficult to have a testimony stay on cement not sand, 

Recent DNA research shows that Joseph Smith was not the father of Josephine Lyon Fisher.

<quote> He noted that 55 DNA samples, mostly from direct descendants of Joseph Smith and Josephine Lyon, with a few from Hyrum Smith and other Lyon lines used as controls, were collected for the study. Autosomnal DNA was produced and compared to support recorded genealogical records, first within the Joseph Smith and Josephine Lyon families to validate the genealogical records and biological relationships, and second between the two families to investigate a possible biological connection between Joseph Smith and Josephine Lyon. “DNA comparison between the two families showed no genetic evidence of a biological relationship, while comparison of Josephine Lyon’s descendants with other individuals descending from Lyon’s lines bearing no apparent close relationship to the Smith family showed a significant amount of shared DNA,” Perego reported. “This information strongly supports that Joseph Smith was not the biological father of Josephine Lyon, but that she was the daughter of Windsor Lyon.”<quote> http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865656112/Joseph-Smith-apparently-was-not-Josephine-Lyons-father-Mormon-History-Association-speaker-says.html?pg=all

What we have here is a distortion, an ignorance of the doctrines of the LDS church. There are two forms of marriage -- temporal wives, and eternal (spiritual) wives. In this case, her mother said that she was sealed (eternal wife) to JS and that he was the father. The hidden message of the antiMormons is that he was the biological father, and ignoring the doctrine of sealing ordinance. Clearly she was telling her daughter the "real" or sealed father was Joseph Smith.

The DNA project has yet to find any evidence that JS fathered any children from these wives.

Now, what? Have you suddenly become a committed Saint, with a rock solid testimony? The problem is that once you do down this path, the enemy has a hold on your heart and there will be other issues. For me, I know that the Book of Mormon is the word of God, and the rest is just minor footnotes.

Edited October 17, 2016 by cdowis

[Tacenda]

13 minutes ago, cdowis said:

Recent DNA research shows that Joseph Smith was not the father of Josephine Lyon Fisher.

<quote> He noted that 55 DNA samples, mostly from direct descendants of Joseph Smith and Josephine Lyon, with a few from Hyrum Smith and other Lyon lines used as controls, were collected for the study. Autosomnal DNA was produced and compared to support recorded genealogical records, first within the Joseph Smith and Josephine Lyon families to validate the genealogical records and biological relationships, and second between the two families to investigate a possible biological connection between Joseph Smith and Josephine Lyon. “DNA comparison between the two families showed no genetic evidence of a biological relationship, while comparison of Josephine Lyon’s descendants with other individuals descending from Lyon’s lines bearing no apparent close relationship to the Smith family showed a significant amount of shared DNA,” Perego reported. “This information strongly supports that Joseph Smith was not the biological father of Josephine Lyon, but that she was the daughter of Windsor Lyon.”<quote> http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865656112/Joseph-Smith-apparently-was-not-Josephine-Lyons-father-Mormon-History-Association-speaker-says.html?pg=all

Vogel said that the idea that she may have been the daughter, more or less proves Joseph Smith had sexual relations with his polyandry wives. 

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

 I'm supposed to believe that Joseph Smith was instructed to live polygamy/polyandry by a good spirit, when the fruit wasn't always good.
 

I'm not sure this is a very good test. Adam and Eve were commanded to multiply and replenish the world, yet this has led to all kinds of disasters, crime, cruelty, and inhumanity.  The fruit of Adam and Eve's decision to obey this commandment hasn't always been good also.