LDS testimonies...built on sand?

[cdowis]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Vogel said that the idea that she may have been the daughter, more or less proves Joseph Smith had sexual relations with his polyandry wives. 

You must then decide whether Vogel is going to determine your eternal future.  He and I have had many discussions and have demonstrated that he is not a credible source of information neither on our history NOR what we believe.

I'm not your mother and you will have to decide for yourself whether the Book of Mormon is the word of God.

Edited October 17, 2016 by cdowis

[Gray]

30 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I'm not sure this is a very good test. Adam and Eve were commanded to multiply and replenish the world, yet this has led to all kinds of disasters, crime, cruelty, and inhumanity.  The fruit of Adam and Eve's decision to obey this commandment hasn't always been good also.

It's the ONLY test. Polygamy was a disaster. Of all the imperfect marriage systems available, monogamy seems to be the best possible. 

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, Gray said:

It's the ONLY test. Polygamy was a disaster. Of all the imperfect marriage systems available, monogamy seems to be the best possible. 

For a lot of people polygamy wasn't a disaster at all though.  And for a lot of people monogamy is a disaster.  How do we settle the issue when using only our personal idea of what is or isn't a good fruit?

[Gray]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

For a lot of people polygamy wasn't a disaster at all though.  And for a lot of people monogamy is a disaster.  How do we settle the issue when using only our personal idea of what is or isn't a good fruit?

I think polygamy worked out well for a few powerful leaders in the community. It seems to have directly resulted in a lot of heartbreak, broken marriages, loveless marriages, families not adequately cared for, children with essentially no fathers, and so forth. The nature of polygamy itself leads to those results. You can get those outcomes in monogamy of course, but they are not built into the institution itself. In monogamy dads sometimes abandon their families, but polygamy creates a situation where dads cannot be present because they are spread too thin. How much dad time do you suppose Brigham Young's 56 children got? 

[ksfisher]

29 minutes ago, Gray said:

It's the ONLY test. Polygamy was a disaster. Of all the imperfect marriage systems available, monogamy seems to be the best possible. 

Personally, I don't think polygamy was a disaster.  I'm a descendant of polygamous marriages.  I've never read anything bad about polygamy in anything written by family members from that time.

[Foreigner]

22 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'd love to have references showing that our members are told to read the Bible, not just to read the standard works of the church. But to say the Bible like they do the Book of Mormon.

No problem. I speak publicly in favor of the Bible and have quite good quotes from Preach My Gospel: A Guide to Missionary Service

 

"The approved scriptures of the Church, also called the standard works, are the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. We should study these sacred books daily."

 

"Far from competing with the Bible, the Book of Mormon supports it, exhorts us to read it, and testifies of the truthfulness of its message. You should use the Book of Mormon and the Bible to support one another.

The Book of Mormon speaks of the ancient covenants God made with His children; the Bible tells of great prophets who also received these covenants by faith. The Book of Mormon testifies of Christ and His Atonement; the Bible provides the account of His birth, ministry, death, Atonement, and Resurrection. Thus, the Bible and Book of Mormon complement and enrich each other."

 

"As you use the Book of Mormon and the Bible as companion volumes of scripture, they will overcome contention and correct false doctrine (see 2 Nephi 3:12).

The Bible teaches the following about the law of witnesses: “In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established” (2 Corinthians 13:1). In harmony with this law, both the Book of Mormon and the Bible testify of Jesus Christ."

 

As you see, all is well, at least in theory.

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, Gray said:

I think polygamy worked out well for a few powerful leaders in the community. It seems to have directly resulted in a lot of heartbreak, broken marriages, loveless marriages, families not adequately cared for, children with essentially no fathers, and so forth. The nature of polygamy itself leads to those results. You can get those outcomes in monogamy of course, but they are not built into the institution itself. In monogamy dads sometimes abandon their families, but polygamy creates a situation where dads cannot be present because they are spread too thin. How much dad time do you suppose Brigham Young's 56 children got? 

I've read people's thoughts on how the nature of monogamy leads to evil fruit though.  

Is there some reason your opinion about the evil nature of polygamy should be taken more seriously than theirs on monogamy?

Because it seems like both are equally valid depending on who you talk to. 

[bluebell]

12 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Personally, I don't think polygamy was a disaster.  I'm a descendant of polygamous marriages.  I've never read anything bad about polygamy in anything written by family members from that time.

Your family members were obviously  wrong. 😉

[Gray]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I've read people's thoughts on how the nature of monogamy leads to evil fruit though.  

Is there some reason your opinion about the evil nature of polygamy should be taken more seriously than theirs on monogamy?

Because it seems like both are equally valid depending on who you talk to. 

Well, what is in the nature of monogamy that you think leads to evil? 

[Gray]

16 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Personally, I don't think polygamy was a disaster.  I'm a descendant of polygamous marriages.  I've never read anything bad about polygamy in anything written by family members from that time.

I'm a descendant of polygamy too. Lots of people are descended from Genghis Khan, too. 

[ksfisher]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Your family members were obviously  wrong. 😉

I imagine they were too busy trying to earn a living as farmers to complain too much. 

[bluebell]

22 minutes ago, Gray said:

Well, what is in the nature of monogamy that you think leads to evil? 

I don't think it is, but there are a lot of people out there who do.  They have weighed the fruit of monogamy and decided that it's a bad fruit.  Just google 'monogamy is bad' and you'll find lots of links (and lots of links saying why it's not bad too.  That's why this whole "something is a bad/good fruit if you believe it is" thing is so much fun).

Having studied history, i know that neither monogamy nor polygamy have been too kind to women and that neither one is historically better for the female gender (if a man is going to abuse a woman, and if the law allows it, monogamy and polygamy both make it equally possible).

There are benefits to both kinds of marriage and there are negatives.  I personally choose monogamy as being the better option, as having the better fruit.  Other women disagree and for valid reasons.

[waveslider]

15 hours ago, Tacenda said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjao6DiN2DY

It's difficult to have a testimony stay on cement not sand, when you read about things the prophet/prophets have done and when apologists such as Brian Hales (link), doesn't get the facts right, and who do I rely on? I know, I know, the spirit.

Okay, then someone might say it was the wrong spirit. As I read yesterday from a poster when I shared that my niece is a medium and spirits would love for loved ones to reach out. Okay, I'm not suppose to believe my niece was being contacted by good spirits, yet I'm supposed to believe that Joseph Smith was instructed to live polygamy/polyandry by a good spirit, when the fruit wasn't always good.

But the spirits that are reaching my niece are bad, and yet do so many good things, for one, help those with unbelief, believe again. How does that work? You all here have been told the church is true through feelings of the spirit. How do you know that spirit isn't fooling you?

 

I didn't say that those spirits were bad, I only warned that it is very hard to discern when they are evil spirits posing as good ones, and to be very careful.

[Rain]

21 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Who do you rely on,,,good question.  Who on this board knows your niece more than you do?? 

In the early 1970's..I had a cousin who married a very handsome and nice gentleman who was black.  He loved her with all his heart and their children were beautiful, respectful and sweet kids.At the time, my Aunt, who was this cousin's mother, became very ill with cancer.  My grandmother who was brought up in the early church was absolutely devasted...but was she angry at the cancer that was taking the life of her daughter??  No...she believed that because my cousin married a black man had killed her mother..who died a year later.  What does this say about the teachings of BY...sure, we all believe he was wrong in some things..but that and the essay doesn't change one whit on what it did to this family.  It was wrong..and all the words on an essay or new teachings doesn't change the fact that one woman took the words of a prophet and pronounced a decree of blame.

Yes..who is fooling who?  The words of a prophet was made obsolete and yet the damage it caused in one immediate family has lasted a lifetime.  I tend to believe you niece has a special gift. 

 

I am admittedly Ignorant on a lot of history. What did BY say that she connected the two things together? I do struggle with things he said, but I've never run across anything he said that would make me believe that the two unrelated things here were related.  So I would really like to know if he said something that would give that impression or if there were some other things going on that had her coming to that conclusion. 

 

[Jeanne]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

I am admittedly Ignorant on a lot of history. What did BY say that she connected the two things together? I do struggle with things he said, but I've never run across anything he said that would make me believe that the two unrelated things here were related.  So I would really like to know if he said something that would give that impression or if there were some other things going on that had her coming to that conclusion. 

 

My grandmother knew of BY/church stance on the blacks from the early 1900's from her own family.  This is what she was taught...and a mixed racial marriage was taboo.  Doesn't matter if there is a scripture if it has been taught..basically, it was the times and culture in a small town.

[Rain]

14 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

My grandmother knew of BY/church stance on the blacks from the early 1900's from her own family.  This is what she was taught...and a mixed racial marriage was taboo.  Doesn't matter if there is a scripture if it has been taught..basically, it was the times and culture in a small town.

Yes, but that doesn't connect to the cancer. Two separate issues. My grandma died of cancer close to the same time and we didn't have mixed racial marriages in the family. So unless there was something BY said I'm not clear on why your relative would connect the two things. 

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Yes, but that doesn't connect to the cancer. Two separate issues. My grandma died of cancer close to the same time and we didn't have mixed racial marriages in the family. So unless there was something BY said I'm not clear on why your relative would connect the two things. 

Oh...I am sorry...I was just home for lunch and made a quick reply.  I can understand why you are confused.  The confusion belongs to my grandma, who thought the heartbreak of her daughter with cancer was because of mixing seed.  I brought it up because for all the trouble it caused with family, it turned out that this is not what God meant anyway.  BY made a mistake. 

Edited October 18, 2016 by Jeanne

[why me]

On 17.10.2016 at 4:19 PM, Tacenda said:

I know of a lot Christians that would disagree, and even bank their lives on the authenticity of the Bible.

Not much different from Mormons banking their lives on the book of mormon. But....no collaborative evidence of the bible narratives. It takes faith that they could quote Christ exactly decades later even though they may not have been there.

[why me]

18 hours ago, Jeanne said:

My grandmother knew of BY/church stance on the blacks from the early 1900's from her own family.  This is what she was taught...and a mixed racial marriage was taboo.  Doesn't matter if there is a scripture if it has been taught..basically, it was the times and culture in a small town.

In the US especially at that time right up to the 1970's race mixing was taboo on both sides. Too much hostility involved. However, it was no different ffor chinese americans and jews. Not much race mixing there either. Different time. People tended to marry people of their religion. Catholics married catholics etc. Not much mixing there either. The catholic church discouraged it and they still do.

 

.

Edited October 19, 2016 by why me

[cdowis]

14 minutes ago, why me said:

Not much different from Mormons banking their lives on the book of mormon. But....no collaborative evidence of the bible narratives. It takes faith that they could quote Christ exactly decades later even though they may not have been there.

I find it interesting that over 95% of the universe is unknown (dark matter and dark energy), otherwise known a "no collaborative evidence" of what is out there.

I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics. ~Richard Feynman

 But we still bank our lives on what science tells us.  I guess it is because it simply works, and that is why I rely so much on the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the word of God ===>>>>  it simply works for me.

PS   I am disturbed by the arrogance of those who dismiss religion on the one hand, and turn a blind eye to the deficiencies of science on the other.  "As I look at the universe, I see no place, no need, for a creator.  It can all be explained by science."  What utter nonsense.

Edited October 19, 2016 by cdowis