Elder Holland, The Poor

[The Nehor]

Great, help ourselves first, is it OK that I buy a new car or put new tile in my house or max my contributions to my 401K to save for my retirement instead of giving money to my poor relative that will waste it?

He called my up once saying he only had bologna sandwiches to eat the last two weeks, but he smoked a carton of cig's every week and blew money gambling. That's irresponsible and I really feel no compassion to give him money when he is just going to waste it.

 

Seriously people at what point do we keep giving and at what point do we say 'you're on your own'?

I would chat with God about this. A wise Bishop told me he has to be very careful with fast offerings and make sure he is helping and not hurting those he gives funds too. In the case you gave I would come over with food but not sure. I am okay woth giving money to some people I know who are poor. They struggle and can barely make ends meet and I try not to humiliate them by micromanaging in any way what they do with what I give. Others could perhaps do with a bit more of being treated like a child because they manage money like a little kid with ten bucks in a candy store.

[Teancum]

It was so powerful. I don't know how tomorrow can possibly outdo today.

 

This isn't an exact quote....

 

Cease withholding our means because we think poor have brought it upon themselves. Aren't we all beggars? We retain (vs obtain) remission of sins by responding to those in need. Perhaps most impressive was Elder Holland acknowledging that he does not know what it feels like to be poor and his inability to explain why circumstances of birth are so varied.

 

He began by pointing out the verse that Jesus had nowhere to lay his head, i.e., was homeless.

So then why does the church continue to poor hundreds of millions and even billions in real estate and other such investments!

[bluebell]

So then why does the church continue to poor hundreds of millions and even billions in real estate and other such investments!

Elder Holland did not suggest that giving money to aide the poor was the *only* good way to use money.

[The Nehor]

So then why does the church continue to poor hundreds of millions and even billions in real estate and other such investments!

So that when Jesus returns we can give Jesus a place to sleep.

[Calm]

Great, help ourselves first, is it OK that I buy a new car or put new tile in my house or max my contributions to my 401K to save for my retirement instead of giving money to my poor relative that will waste it?

He called my up once saying he only had bologna sandwiches to eat the last two weeks, but he smoked a carton of cig's every week and blew money gambling. That's irresponsible and I really feel no compassion to give him money when he is just going to waste it.

 

Seriously people at what point do we keep giving and at what point do we say 'you're on your own'?

There are undoubtedly people around who do need your help who won't waste it.  Why not focus on finding them and helping them out?  Given our limited means, I think we will probably max out before having to wonder if we should give our money to those who foolishly use it.

 

If your relative calls for help, inform him that you will do so for exchange of work and if you don't need the type of help he can give (cleaning up the yard or whatever), or if he is too far away to travel, maybe check with the bishop in his area and see if there are widows or elderly or disabled who need that kind of service and have him work there to help out them (assuming he is not the type that will take advantage of them by possibly robbing them)…thus your money will go to help two or more poor and maybe help give him some self respect.  If he refuses, then he needs to live with that reality he has created for himself.  We are not imo required to support people in their sin and that includes the sin of laziness.

Edited October 5, 2014 by calmoriah

[Garden Girl]

So then why does the church continue to poor hundreds of millions and even billions in real estate and other such investments!

 

Some time ago there was a thread here on the Board that questioned the Church's purchase of additional property in Florida, in addition to the citrus groves.... they bought quite a large tract... IMO this is a wise investment in that in the future (if one follows the scriptures at all) there will be times of continued flood (as we've seen recently), famine, etc.  The Church will be able to use this property for the production of food crops, etc., to assist in our continued humanitarian aid.  I know that the Church does not do things, such as purchasing additional land, without careful consideration and prayer.  The wisdom of this purchase may not be seen for many years, but one day will be readily apparent however it is put to use. 

 

GG

[MormonFreeThinker]

 I feel a lot of poor are responsible for becoming poor. A lot of homeless you see on the streets probably lost what little they originally had to drugs or alcohol and it wasted all their money. 

 

Not all of them, read what Elder Holland said. 

Even if it it their fault, many of them regret their mistakes. 

 

So how can a homeless man find a good job? 

How can a Walmart employee work for a living? How can a Walmart employee find a better job or pay for school?  

 

It is true that some don't care about anything, but the people that don't care about anything usually do not look fb, and they have a government or a job. 

Edited October 5, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[sheilauk]

Great, help ourselves first, is it OK that I buy a new car or put new tile in my house or max my contributions to my 401K to save for my retirement instead of giving money to my poor relative that will waste it?

He called my up once saying he only had bologna sandwiches to eat the last two weeks, but he smoked a carton of cig's every week and blew money gambling. That's irresponsible and I really feel no compassion to give him money when he is just going to waste it.

 

Seriously people at what point do we keep giving and at what point do we say 'you're on your own'?

you should not stop doing all you should to take care of your needs so keep saving and taking care of your home. If you need a new car, get one but be judicious. To help your brother, don't give money. Invite him round for a meal and ask him to do the dishes or take him a meal, but don't fund his habits.

[ezra]

As a poor man I love this talk, but I know there are those that have it much worse than me. I loved the talk during the Priesthood session about fasting and paying a fast offering with our tithing. I also love making a donation to humanitarian Aid. Helping the poor is so important and such a great thing about the church.

 All comments were great but this was the best.  There is something that happens to us when we give to others.  It reminds me of Mosiah 4:11. 

[tonie]

 I feel a lot of poor are responsible for becoming poor. A lot of homeless you see on the streets probably lost what little they originally had to drugs or alcohol and it wasted all their money.

 

Elder Holland, Saturday,  October o5, 2014:

 

So, how might we do what we can. For one thing, we can as King Benjamin taught cease withholding our means because we see the poor as having brought their misery upon themselves. Perhaps some have created their own difficulties. But don’t the rest of us do exactly the same thing. Isn’t that why this compassionate ruler asked “are we not all beggars?” Don’t we all cry out for help, and hope and answer to prayers. Don’t we all beg for forgiveness for mistakes we’ve made and troubles we’ve caused?

Edited October 5, 2014 by tonie

[Rain]

Elder Holland, Saturday,  October o5, 2014:

 

So, how might we do what we can. For one thing, we can as King Benjamin taught cease withholding our means because we see the poor as having brought their misery upon themselves. Perhaps some have created their own difficulties. But don’t the rest of us do exactly the same thing. Isn’t that why this compassionate ruler asked “are we not all beggars?” Don’t we all cry out for help, and hope and answer to prayers. Don’t we all beg for forgiveness for mistakes we’ve made and troubles we’ve caused?

I do think some people just think, "they brought it on themselves. They deserve what they have." As Elder Ballard says this kind of thinking needs to stop.

Where many people struggle though is "how do I help this person and not enable them?"

Prayer is excellent for this, but it rarely is a case of the Lord answering exactly what to do. Most of the time I feel a little lost wondering what is the best thing to do.

My brother is a addict homeless man. I could just hand him money which he might use for drugs. I could have him live in my home, but for many reasons that would be a huge mess. One thing I have figured out is if he is in a shelter or a rehab program of some kind I can donate to it.

Unfortunately, he is the easy one to figure out. There are others in my life that I am often daily struggling with the help/enabling line.

[MorningStar]

I think it's one thing when a person caused their own poverty in the first place.  It's hard to dig your way out.  But if a person isn't trying to dig their way out and feels they are entitled to other people's money so they can continue wasting what little they have on cigarettes, booze, drugs, gambling, etc., then I don't feel obligated to help them.  I have many good friends who I love to help and are trying their darnesdest.  One family couldn't afford to insure or maintain their van anymore, so they got rid of it.  They ride their bikes everywhere, usually even pulling a little trailer for grocery shopping, husband and wife are both in school, they do a lot to serve others, etc.  I offered them rides to the store whenever I could, especially if they needed to make a big shopping trip.  I would have a terrible time without a car, so I really admire them for it.

 

I have another friend who has been looking for a job in her field since 2007.  Things keep getting worse for her and if I had more, I would help a lot more.  I send her home with groceries or leftovers whenever I can.  I know how she checks job listings every single day and has had multiple interviews.  We have her over for Christmas and make sure there are presents for her too.  I have been annoyed by people who commented that maybe she just doesn't manage her money well.  Um, right now she's living off of $400 a month.  She's not a magician.  She just lost her phone and Internet again because she's sick and had to decide between that and her medication. 

[emarkp]

He began by pointing out the verse that Jesus had nowhere to lay his head, i.e., was homeless.

 

Which is false.  Yet another of the 12 who can't get basic facts right.  Sigh.

[rodheadlee]

I think he referred to members because we have a much better grasp of record keeping for them. It is more difficult to count no members helped particularly since much of it is bulk humanitarian aid.

Yes, thank you. I don't communicate well. No surprise to those that know me. As the only members in our families we ( my wife and I) worry about who will do the Temple work for the homeless/nameless too.

[The Nehor]

mnn, my answer to your question is the poor do need to make every effort they can to help themselves. I feel a lot of poor are responsible for becoming poor. A lot of homeless you see on the streets probably lost what little they originally had to drugs or alcohol and it wasted all their money. There are so many rich Mormons where I live and that is because they worked hard, got an education, and a great job, and followed the commandments and covenants. I feel we put ourselves where we wind up, both financially and spiritually. But I will still donate to the poor on every tithing slip I fill out. Someone has to help them.

 

The problem with that conclusion is that the Lord himself has said it is false. While Elder Holland is correct in encouraging us to try to use our resources and skills to avoid poverty there are no guarantees. The Parable of the Ten Sons:

 

25 And again I say unto you, let every man esteem his brother as himself.

 

 26 For what man among you having twelve sons, and is no respecter of them, and they serve him obediently, and he saith unto the one: Be thou clothed in robes and sit thou here; and to the other: Be thou clothed in rags and sit thou there—and looketh upon his sons and saith I am just?

 

 27 Behold, this I have given unto you as a parable, and it is even as I am. I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine.

 

The Lord says outright that neither poverty or wealth are badges of just desserts. We are under an obligation to do the best we can with what we have and improve upon it as best we can in moderation of course and not fixating on wealth to the detriment of more important things.

 

As King Benjamin and Elder Holland pointed out.....does it really matter if someone who is suffering deserves to suffer? The entire gospel says that we all deserve hellfire but we beg for mercy and comfort and an escape from our sorrows. If there is justice for sins and mistakes to be meted out God is more then capable of doing so but we are under instructions to feed the hungry, deliver the captive, and visit those in prison with no mention of whether they deserve to be in that state.

 

This does not mean we need to be Santa Claus pouring an endless supply of wealth at the poor who will misuse it or become dependent on it. It does mean we should act to alleviate their suffering in an intelligent and well-thought out way as individual circumstances dictate.

[mbh26]

It's not like people have much choice in how their wages are spent.  It seems like my check is eaten up in taxes, debts, mortgages, groceries, car payments, family obligations, unanticipated expenses, long before I see any of it and get to ask, "What will I do with this?"  If I fail to pay any one of these they could arrest me, divorce me, pull my temple recommend, or penalize me with fines.  The choice sometimes is not what it seems.  

[Alan]

Joining this thread late.

 

Have to say Elder Holland's talk is the best conference address I have ever heard.

[thesometimesaint]

Ok, that's understandable but would you then take a stab at my question in post #17 please?

I'm not picking on you but I really honestly want to try to get a perspective and an answer.

 

"A certain man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who both stripped him and beat him, and departed, leaving him half dead. By chance a certain priest was going down that way. When he saw him, he passed by on the other side. In the same way a Levite also, when he came to the place, and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he travelled, came where he was. When he saw him, he was moved with compassion, came to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. He set him on his own animal, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, and gave them to the host, and said to him, 'Take care of him. Whatever you spend beyond that, I will repay you when I return.' Now which of these three do you think seemed to be a neighbour to him who fell among the robbers?"

 

He said, "He who showed mercy on him."

Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise."

[HappyJackWagon]

Those who are seeking church support are really going to love this talk. I know the caveats were thrown in about being independent etc but it almost seemed like an after thought. There are definitely those who game the system and this may give them more cover or place more guilt on a bishop for saying "no" even when it is appropriate.

[mnn727]

"A certain man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who both stripped him and beat him, and departed, leaving him half dead. By chance a certain priest was going down that way. When he saw him, he passed by on the other side. In the same way a Levite also, when he came to the place, and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he travelled, came where he was. When he saw him, he was moved with compassion, came to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. He set him on his own animal, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, and gave them to the host, and said to him, 'Take care of him. Whatever you spend beyond that, I will repay you when I return.' Now which of these three do you think seemed to be a neighbour to him who fell among the robbers?"

 

He said, "He who showed mercy on him."

Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise."

How is that supposed to answer my question?

 

My main issue is that my brother makes enough to live on, he could be comfortable if he lived within his means, but he throws away well over 1/3 of his income on smoking and gambling. Why should I have to help him when he is not interested in helping himself? Yet it appears that is what Elder Holland said.

Edited October 6, 2014 by mnn727

[CV75]

Elder Holland talked about the poor, and taught that it is not their fault (many of them), he said we must help the poor. For the ones that it is their fault, he said that we still need to show compassion. 

 

Elder Holland also taught that poverty destroys dreams.   

 

Elder Holland also said that he doesn't have the answer to many difficult questions.   

I thought it was a great example of teaching correct principles (with a warning) and leaving it up to the saints to govern themselves with regards to caring for the poor--we are all accountable to God as to how we treat the poor, and beyond our mere payment of fast offerings.

[JLHPROF]

Joining this thread late.

 

Have to say Elder Holland's talk is the best conference address I have ever heard.

 

I say that after every Elder Holland talk.  But I don't think even he will ever top "None Were With Him".

[mbh26]

I don't mean to be disrespectful saying this but he mentioned that Jesus was homeless.  Isn't that what usually happens when you take no thought for what you'll eat, drink, or where you'll live?  Why didn't Heavenly Father give him a house if he needed a house?  

[MormonFreeThinker]

How is that supposed to answer my question?

 

My main issue is that my brother makes enough to live on, he could be comfortable if he lived within his means, but he throws away well over 1/3 of his income on smoking and gambling. Why should I have to help him when he is not interested in helping himself? Yet it appears that is what Elder Holland said.

 

You do not have to give him money, but if he is very hungry or starving, you should give him something to eat.    

Edited October 6, 2014 by MormonFreeThinker

[sheilauk]

My main issue is that my brother makes enough to live on, he could be comfortable if he lived within his means, but he throws away well over 1/3 of his income on smoking and gambling. Why should I have to help him when he is not interested in helping himself? Yet it appears that is what Elder Holland said.

The answer to why you should help him is charity and mercy.  He is in the grip of addictions and will not get out of them until he chooses to try.  We are asked to show charity and to forgive again and again.  However, I don't think that that means that we need to facilitate negative or sinful behaviour.  Thus, you don't give him money but you provide him with food and you ask him to earn it, as Cal suggested.  Make it clear that you do not like his behaviour and will not prop him up but you won't see him starve either.  Its a difficult balance.