Elder Holland, The Poor

[MormonFreeThinker]

NO, I don't agree. I started out in fast food when I was 16, worked hard too - should I have been given and apartment and food?

Some jobs (like fast food) are entry level unskilled jobs, you can train anyone with half a brain  to do it - and yes, I worked with and trained mentally challenged people to work there.They are not meant to be a career,

 

You did not deserve a mansion, but everybody deserves a place to live and food, especially the employees. 

 

Bytheway, I used to work at Walmart, all employees at that store are 18 years and older. It is very offensive that you say they are unskilled jobs. 

 

When I worked at Walmart I did everything the same day, I had to be a cashier, a cart pusher, truck unloader, stocker, and I had to zone my department before I clocked out. 

Maybe 20 years ago it was easy, but now jobs are getting harder, you have to do a lot in a short period of time. The Store manager and his assistants are not capable of doing what "low skill" workers do. The store manager just stands there doing nothing. 

Edited March 15, 2015 by MormonFreeThinker

[mnn727]

You did not deserve a mansion, but everybody deserves a place to live and food, especially the employees. 

 

Bytheway, I used to work at Walmart, all employees at that store are 18 years and older. It is very offensive that you say they are unskilled jobs. 

 

When I worked at Walmart I did everything the same day, I had to be a cashier, a cart pusher, truck unloader, stocker, and I had to zone my department before I clocked out. 

Maybe 20 years ago it was easy, but now jobs are getting harder, you have to do a lot in a short period of time. The Store manager and his assistants are not capable of doing what "low skill" workers do. The store manager just stands there doing nothing. 

All of which can be taught to anyone in less that 1 week, sorry, its still a job that is or can be done by the uneducated, I taught cashiers int he fast food industry in a couple days and that would be the hardest thing to learn of your list. Probably easier today than it was 20-30 years ago as the register does all the 'hard work' for you.

[bluebell]

I just watched an awesome show on BYU tv this morning about micro loans and how they are blessing the poorest of the poor.  These are loans focused mostly on women that are very small put allow women to start businesses or buy resources that will in themselves produce money.  These banks focused more on women than on men because women repaid the loans and followed the 'rules' much better than men.  The repayment rate among women for these loans at one bank in India was 100%.

 

In the show one of the many 'experts' (and i don't remember who it was or what their expertise was in) mentioned that throwing money at poverty does not help.   The only thing that will or can save the poor is to make it possible for them to help themselves (which requires money, but money given for specific purposes and under specific conditions).

 

It was a very inspiring story.

 

http://www.byutv.org/watch/caaf7a03-b351-4297-a42d-24dbaa79e8c8/small-fortunes-microcredit-and-the-future-of-poverty

[thesometimesaint]

I would like that to be true but scripturally it seems dubious to say the least. Entrance to paradise requires baptism and unless angels are secretly baptizing everyone I do not see that group being a majority in this or any other age of the earth.

 

Christ told the thief on the cross he would be with him in Paradise that day. We don't know if that thief was baptized or not prior to hanging there on that cross. But I don't believe he was. Angels don't baptize anyone. That is an ordinance that must be done by mortals here on earth. ALL will be given the opportunity to hear in full the gospel and accept or reject it as is their choice. That is why we do baptism in our Ward/Stake buildings for ourselves, and do Temple work for our dead in the Temple.

[The Nehor]

Christ told the thief on the cross he would be with him in Paradise that day. We don't know if that thief was baptized or not prior to hanging there on that cross. But I don't believe he was. Angels don't baptize anyone. That is an ordinance that must be done by mortals here on earth. ALL will be given the opportunity to hear in full the gospel and accept or reject it as is their choice. That is why we do baptism in our Ward/Stake buildings for ourselves, and do Temple work for our dead in the Temple.

Was that God's day or man's day?

I know of no requirement that our ordinances must be done by mortals. Resurrected beings have performed other ordinances.

[Calm]

I just watched an awesome show on BYU tv this morning about micro loans and how they are blessing the poorest of the poor.  These are loans focused mostly on women that are very small put allow women to start businesses or buy resources that will in themselves produce money.  These banks focused more on women than on men because women repaid the loans and followed the 'rules' much better than men.  The repayment rate among women for these loans at one bank in India was 100%.

 

In the show one of the many 'experts' (and i don't remember who it was or what their expertise was in) mentioned that throwing money at poverty does not help.   The only thing that will or can save the poor is to make it possible for them to help themselves (which requires money, but money given for specific purposes and under specific conditions).

 

It was a very inspiring story.

 

http://www.byutv.org/watch/caaf7a03-b351-4297-a42d-24dbaa79e8c8/small-fortunes-microcredit-and-the-future-of-poverty

This has been going on for a number of years.  My husband was so excited when it first developed (it was a hot topic in his field).  The women tend to be much better at paying back the loan because they focus on the needs of their family and how that it benefited by their business.  Men were more focused on what the business could do for them and thus were more likely to spend the loan and their business income on stuff not related to the business that they wanted to do for themselves.

 

I think the Church approaches helping the poor in much the same way, money and resources are given for a specific purpose and in such a way that the individuals and community helps themlselves.

 

I count this as one of the ways the Church has been ahead of the curve because they were doing things this way long before the studies showed that this worked best.

[MormonFreeThinker]

All of which can be taught to anyone in less that 1 week, sorry, its still a job that is or can be done by the uneducated, I taught cashiers int he fast food industry in a couple days and that would be the hardest thing to learn of your list. Probably easier today than it was 20-30 years ago as the register does all the 'hard work' for you.

 

I never worked at a fast food restaurant, but at Walmart I had to do a lot of stuff, not just the cash register. It is not easy, you have no idea, it is easy to learn, but it is not easy to do a lot of stuff in a short period of time. 

Many of the Executive management team are young earth creationists, but they make a lot of money.

 

 

All workers deserve at least an apartment and food, it is so unchristian to think they don't deserve anything.

Edited March 15, 2015 by MormonFreeThinker

[mnn727]

I never worked at a fast food restaurant, but at Walmart I had to do a lot of stuff, not just the cash register. It is not easy, you have no idea, it is easy to learn, but it is not easy to do a lot of stuff in a short period of time. 

Many of the Executive management team are young earth creationists, but they make a lot of money.

 

 

All workers deserve at least an apartment and food, it is so unchristian to think they don't deserve anything.

I never said you didn't work hard, but you don't need a college degree (or even a high school diploma for that matter), to learn any of the basic jobs. Like I said you can train someone on any one (non-management) job there in a few hours up to a week at most.

 

If you don't like what they pay, then don't accept the job. Educate yourself - libraries are still free if you don't know how to get a student loan for college or a vo-tech.

 

If people stop agreeing to be hired for whatever wage they are paying, soon they will have to pay more to get good help. 

Edited March 16, 2015 by mnn727

[pogi]

I just watched an awesome show on BYU tv this morning about micro loans and how they are blessing the poorest of the poor.  These are loans focused mostly on women that are very small put allow women to start businesses or buy resources that will in themselves produce money.  These banks focused more on women than on men because women repaid the loans and followed the 'rules' much better than men.  The repayment rate among women for these loans at one bank in India was 100%.

 

In the show one of the many 'experts' (and i don't remember who it was or what their expertise was in) mentioned that throwing money at poverty does not help.   The only thing that will or can save the poor is to make it possible for them to help themselves (which requires money, but money given for specific purposes and under specific conditions).

 

It was a very inspiring story.

 

http://www.byutv.org/watch/caaf7a03-b351-4297-a42d-24dbaa79e8c8/small-fortunes-microcredit-and-the-future-of-poverty

 

Muhammad Yunus is an inspiration, and I believe that his social business model is the best hope to eradicate poverty.

 

http://www.muhammadyunus.org/index.php/social-business/social-business

[ksfisher]

 

Many of the Executive management team are young earth creationists, but they make a lot of money.

 

 

Do they make a lot of money because they are young earth creationists, or in spite of?

[The Nehor]

Do they make a lot of money because they are young earth creationists, or in spite of?

Management is not as difficult a job as managers want everyone to believe. Managers are a dime a dozen and it does not take a first-class brain to pull it off.

[ksfisher]

Management is not as difficult a job as managers want everyone to believe. Managers are a dime a dozen and it does not take a first-class brain to pull it off.

 

I'm still wondering how being a young earth creationist fits into the whole management game.  Would it be a good career move for me to start a young earth blog?

[JLHPROF]

Management is not as difficult a job as managers want everyone to believe. Managers are a dime a dozen and it does not take a first-class brain to pull it off.

 

Having been a manager for the past 15 years, I always say management isn't know how to do anything, it's just knowing what to do about things.  I don't need to know how to fix a computer, I just need to know who to call if a computer breaks.

It's about managing situations and people.

[MormonFreeThinker]

I never said you didn't work hard, but you don't need a college degree (or even a high school diploma for that matter), to learn any of the basic jobs. Like I said you can train someone on any one (non-management) job there in a few hours up to a week at most.

 

Are you saying that people without a college degree don't deserve healthy food, an apartment, and a life?

 

If people stop agreeing to be hired for whatever wage they are paying, soon they will have to pay more to get good help. 

 

Not everybody can afford college, not everybody has grants. 

It is not easy to go to college if you have to feed a family (barely with cheap food). Many jobs don't allow their workers to go to college because they sometimes ask them to stay extra hours. Factories, big businesses, and many others want the poor to remain poor because that is how they benefit, that is why they create difficult circumstances for the poor.  

 

 

Do they make a lot of money because they are young earth creationists, or in spite of?

 

mnn727 thinks that only smart and educated people deserve a life. 

Edited March 16, 2015 by MormonFreeThinker

[ksfisher]

mnn727 thinks that only smart and educated people deserve a life. 

 

I don't think that statement is at all fair to what mnn727 is saying.  He is saying that education improves the quality of peoples lives and that education is one road to improving the lives of the poor.

[thesometimesaint]

I don't believe anyone deserves a life, but as long as we have one lets make it as enjoyable as possible. Poverty puts extreme limits on everyone's enjoyment.

[MormonFreeThinker]

I don't believe anyone deserves a life, but as long as we have one lets make it as enjoyable as possible. Poverty puts extreme limits on everyone's enjoyment.

 

Not everybody deserves a Ferrari or a trip to Mustique, but all workers deserve healthy food and at least an apartment. 

[The Nehor]

I never said you didn't work hard, but you don't need a college degree (or even a high school diploma for that matter), to learn any of the basic jobs. Like I said you can train someone on any one (non-management) job there in a few hours up to a week at most.

 

If you don't like what they pay, then don't accept the job. Educate yourself - libraries are still free if you don't know how to get a student loan for college or a vo-tech.

 

If people stop agreeing to be hired for whatever wage they are paying, soon they will have to pay more to get good help.

That only works when you have a labor shortage which we do not have and probably will not have for at least a few more decades.

[ksfisher]

Not everybody deserves a Ferrari or a trip to Mustique, but all workers deserve healthy food and at least an apartment. 

 

Is anyone saying they don't?

[thesometimesaint]

Not everybody deserves a Ferrari or a trip to Mustique, but all workers deserve healthy food and at least an apartment. 

 

I don't like the word deserve. I think the better words would be "The Right To". Everyone has the right to healthy food, adequate shelter, necessary clothing, and medical care. If businesses refuse to pay enough for their employees basics, tax them enough to pay for them through governmental programs.

[pogi]

I don't believe anyone deserves a life, but as long as we have one lets make it as enjoyable as possible. Poverty puts extreme limits on everyone's enjoyment.

 

What do you consider poverty?  The Filipinos I knew were the happiest people I have ever met.  They had dirt floors, slept on bamboo beds with 10 other people in the same bed, no electricity, no sewage system, lived day to day basically. 

 

Perhaps we need to re-evaluate what happiness is and how to get it.  

 

I would be willing to bet that rural Filipinos are happier than the richest Americans.  I would suggest that Affluenza is more dangerous and damaging to our society and our well-being than poverty is. 

[The Nehor]

What do you consider poverty?  The Filipinos I knew were the happiest people I have ever met.  They had dirt floors, slept on bamboo beds with 10 other people in the same bed, no electricity, no sewage system, lived day to day basically. 

 

Perhaps we need to re-evaluate what happiness is and how to get it.  

 

I would be willing to bet that rural Filipinos are happier than the richest Americans.  I would suggest that Affluenza is more dangerous and damaging to our society and our well-being than poverty is.

Sounds like something one of those filthy poor people would say.

[ksfisher]

What do you consider poverty?  The Filipinos I knew were the happiest people I have ever met.  They had dirt floors, slept on bamboo beds with 10 other people in the same bed, no electricity, no sewage system, lived day to day basically. 

 

Perhaps we need to re-evaluate what happiness is and how to get it.  

 

I would be willing to bet that rural Filipinos are happier than the richest Americans.  I would suggest that Affluenza is more dangerous and damaging to our society and our well-being than poverty is. 

 

I seem to remember reading a study once that concluded that our level of happiness was relative to how we compare ourselves to those around us.  If we are poor along with everyone around us, then our happiness is unaffected by our poverty.  If, however, we are poor in the midst of a well to do area we our level of happiness is decreased.  The key is our perception of how we compare to those around us.

[pogi]

I seem to remember reading a study once that concluded that our level of happiness was relative to how we compare ourselves to those around us.  If we are poor along with everyone around us, then our happiness is unaffected by our poverty.  If, however, we are poor in the midst of a well to do area we our level of happiness is decreased.  The key is our perception of how we compare to those around us.

 

I completely agree with this.  

 

It's those darned Jones's that make us so dang miserable!

 

Perhaps instead of handing out money to panhandlers, we should be handing out books on mindfulness.  This will no doubt bring a much more lasting happiness.  "New research shows that mindfulness may help us to stop comparing ourselves to other people."  

http://www.mindful.org/in-body-and-mind/feeling-self-critical-try-mindfulness

 

I also suggest that we stop using the GDP as a measure of success and instead use the Genuine Progress Indicator (GPI).  The GDP falls very short on measuring overall well-being. We have bought into this notion of "standard of living".  However, standard of living does not add up to quality of life. 

 

To compare the GDP to the GPI, the GDP is more like the gross profit of America and the GPI would be compared to the net profit of America.  In other words, the GDP only measures income without measuring the costs of production; the GPI takes these costs into account.  It factors in ‘well-being’ rather than just profit. For instance, it measures the costs of production by deducting or adding points for areas like crime, family breakdown, household and volunteer work, income distribution, resource depletion, pollution, long-term environmental damage, changes in leisure time, defensive expenditures, lifespan of consumer durable and public infrastructures, and dependence on foreign assets.  It is interesting to note that when you plug these variables into the equation, while the GDP has been climbing ever higher, the GPI has been gradually declining.  In other words, as we get richer, life gets poorer. 

Edited March 16, 2015 by pogi

[thesometimesaint]

What do you consider poverty?  The Filipinos I knew were the happiest people I have ever met.  They had dirt floors, slept on bamboo beds with 10 other people in the same bed, no electricity, no sewage system, lived day to day basically. 

 

Perhaps we need to re-evaluate what happiness is and how to get it.  

 

I would be willing to bet that rural Filipinos are happier than the richest Americans.  I would suggest that Affluenza is more dangerous and damaging to our society and our well-being than poverty is. 

 

Poverty... Inadequate means to provide the basics of life. Sure; People will tolerate primitive conditions when there is no other choices available to them. Though it is hard to have happiness watching your children die from exposure to heat/cold, wet, disease, and filth.

 

We have the right to pursue happiness. Not necessarily the attainment of it. OTOH poverty extremely limits our pursuit of happiness.

 

While it is true that money can't buy happiness it beats the heck out of the next 11 things.

SEE http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2013/01/09/the-worlds-happiest-and-saddest-countries-2/