The Nehor Posted March 13, 2015 Posted March 13, 2015 They can't get "a job that pays them fairly" because they are not willing to do what it takes to get one: train for it, get an education, move to where the jobs are.not willing or do not know how? Or have been so beaten down they do not have the drive and will left to do this? And if everyone got an education who is going to mop the floors and clean the toilets when everyone has at least a Master's degree? While on the individual level this plan sometimes works it will not work on the macro level.
bluebell Posted March 13, 2015 Posted March 13, 2015 It is not a matter of deserving. We all deserve hell. However we are under commandment not to let others suffer by withholding our substance even if they deserve it. In fact thinking that the poor deserve it is explicitly sinful and a cause for repentance according to King Benjamin.I completely agree. It was Alan's use of the word deserve that had me confused.
thesometimesaint Posted March 13, 2015 Posted March 13, 2015 If said company is controlled by selfish jerks with no sense of community or moral responsibility then this is correct. Sadly said jerks will burn in hell so I do not recommend this course of action. I've never understood the selfish jerks. Henry Ford was a jerk in many ways. but he did have one good idea. He didn't invent interchangeability; He didn't invent the assembly line; He didn't invent cars. What he did invent was the idea that if he paid his employees well enough to buy the cars they help make, they'd help him get rich, and they did.
The Nehor Posted March 13, 2015 Posted March 13, 2015 "There is one rule for the industrialist and that is: Make the best quality of goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages possible." -Henry FordI think this rule got lost somewhere.
mnn727 Posted March 13, 2015 Posted March 13, 2015 What change would need to occur? I'm currently in a third world country, and most of the poor here have a strong work ethic. How specifically do they need to change to become like you? Nevermind.... I see you answered it in a later post. They need to be willing to do what it takes (because they're not yet willing). Maybe I should tell them to get out of that field or factory and get some education or move to where the jobs are. Sounds simple enough....It is simple enough. I've moved halfway across the county twice to get a good paying job. I also went back to school in my late 30's to get my degree.Simple? not always, but always worth it, or I guess I could be whining that I need to make $15 an hour flipping burgers and asking "Would you like fries with that? instead of having an actual career that allows me to provide for my family in a decent manner.
JLHPROF Posted March 13, 2015 Posted March 13, 2015 I guess I could be whining that I need to make $15 an hour flipping burgers and asking "Would you like fries with that? This would be the result - although I think the gospel and such harsh capitalism are somewhat incompatible.God still requires us to help provide for the poor. It's the whole point of consecration and tithing.
MormonFreeThinker Posted March 13, 2015 Author Posted March 13, 2015 They can't get "a job that pays them fairly" because they are not willing to do what it takes to get one: train for it, get an education, move to where the jobs are. What about single mothers? What about people that don't have high skills? What about people that cannot afford to go to college?What about people with difficult circumstances? Just because some can doesn't mean everybody can. Ex-convicts cannot even get a job at Mcdonalds. Bytheway,many young adults (return missionaries) cannot get married young because they can't find a job that pays fairly, they cannot afford a small apartment. Maybe 20 years ago it was possible, but not anymore.
KevinG Posted March 13, 2015 Posted March 13, 2015 The choice is give freely through consecration and offerings, or be mandated to pay out entitlements. I like the Lord's plan, agency respected and all.
The Nehor Posted March 13, 2015 Posted March 13, 2015 It is simple enough. I've moved halfway across the county twice to get a good paying job. I also went back to school in my late 30's to get my degree.Simple? not always, but always worth it, or I guess I could be whining that I need to make $15 an hour flipping burgers and asking "Would you like fries with that? instead of having an actual career that allows me to provide for my family in a decent manner.Most of us were raised in homes or in cultures where we were taught a grasp of the system and how to work and thrive within it. Many were not. I know I might not have gotten the current job I have if I did not talk like an upper-middle class guy and was not able to laugh and chat with the company president about houseboating and Europe during the interview.Yes, ambition and hard work can overcome a lot and we should do the best we can with what we have but we should never pretend it is a level playing field or that our society is a meritocracy. God explicitly says that when it comes to economics it is specifically not fair.
mnn727 Posted March 13, 2015 Posted March 13, 2015 (edited) What about single mothers? What about people that don't have high skills? What about people that cannot afford to go to college?What about people with difficult circumstances? Just because some can doesn't mean everybody can. Ex-convicts cannot even get a job at Mcdonalds. Bytheway,many young adults (return missionaries) cannot get married young because they can't find a job that pays fairly, they cannot afford a small apartment. Maybe 20 years ago it was possible, but not anymore. Single mothers have resources, they can access student loans, scholarships, etc. My SiL did it with 2 young kids when her husband wanted to find himself and moved out. What did it take? a lot of planning and hard work. Something many people just are not willing to do. I'll grant you that ex-cons have a very serious problem but there are still resources and they can even take classes while in prison. Were I an ex-con I would probably take the route of starting my own business - but again, that takes an education and a lot of very hard work and dedication. Sometimes you MUST step out of your comfort zone. Other times you just must decide you're going to do whatever it takes. Missionaries? no excuses, if they can proselyte for 2 years they can do anything they put their mind to, maybe just not where they want to. Again moving is not that traumatic, the Church is everywhere, you have an instant support system where ever you go. First time DW and I moved across the country chasing a job we had to borrow money from family to do it, but I got a job the very first day we had moved paying 3x what my previous job paid. (I had lined up interviews before we moved.) and my wife made 1 1/2 what her previous job paid. Cost of living was very similar so all in all the best decision possible. Edited March 13, 2015 by mnn727
MormonFreeThinker Posted March 14, 2015 Author Posted March 14, 2015 Single mothers have resources, they can access student loans, scholarships, etc. My SiL did it with 2 young kids when her husband wanted to find himself and moved out. What did it take? a lot of planning and hard work. How can single mothers afford an apartment and college? Many single mothers do not have a husband or someone to help them. Sometimes you MUST step out of your comfort zone. Other times you just must decide you're going to do whatever it takes. Missionaries? no excuses, if they can proselyte for 2 years they can do anything they put their mind to, maybe just not where they want to. Many return missionaries have to live with their parents because they cannot afford an apartment and college. They have to wait some years. I moved across the country chasing a job we had to borrow money from family to do it, . Good, but many do not have a family to help them, many have extreme circumstances, and "there is a great deal of chance" Sometimes you MUST step out of your comfort zone. Other times you just must decide you're going to do whatever it takes. Many hard workers are not in a comfort zone. What would happen if all hard workers leave Walmart, K-Mart, and Mcdonalds? We would have terrible customer service, all hard workers deserve a living wage. I am not saying all hard workers deserve a new 2015 car, but they all of them deserve at least an apartment and food. Do you disagree?
Tacenda Posted March 14, 2015 Posted March 14, 2015 My son works at a hotel and he told me three different times, LDS occupants left the place a mess. Mind you the church was footing the bill each time. One guy even hired a prostitute, my son overheard him on the phone or something. Another guy abused his wife, blood all over the bed from the guy hitting his wife, she had wounds on her face. The church does try to help when family/friends won't. But sometimes these LDS people take advantage or use the church.
Calm Posted March 14, 2015 Posted March 14, 2015 Did your son call the police on the abusive husband?
thesometimesaint Posted March 14, 2015 Posted March 14, 2015 Single mothers have resources, they can access student loans, scholarships, etc. My SiL did it with 2 young kids when her husband wanted to find himself and moved out. What did it take? a lot of planning and hard work. Something many people just are not willing to do. I'll grant you that ex-cons have a very serious problem but there are still resources and they can even take classes while in prison. Were I an ex-con I would probably take the route of starting my own business - but again, that takes an education and a lot of very hard work and dedication. Sometimes you MUST step out of your comfort zone. Other times you just must decide you're going to do whatever it takes. Missionaries? no excuses, if they can proselyte for 2 years they can do anything they put their mind to, maybe just not where they want to. Again moving is not that traumatic, the Church is everywhere, you have an instant support system where ever you go. First time DW and I moved across the country chasing a job we had to borrow money from family to do it, but I got a job the very first day we had moved paying 3x what my previous job paid. (I had lined up interviews before we moved.) and my wife made 1 1/2 what her previous job paid. Cost of living was very similar so all in all the best decision possible. Here is something you might find of value to consider.http://www.salon.com/2015/03/14/how_the_supreme_court_is_about_to_explode_americas_racial_wealth_gap/?source=newsletter
Teancum Posted March 14, 2015 Posted March 14, 2015 It is not a matter of deserving. We all deserve hell. However we are under commandment not to let others suffer by withholding our substance even if they deserve it. In fact thinking that the poor deserve it is explicitly sinful and a cause for repentance according to King Benjamin. Why do we all deserve hell? Really who came up with that idea? Mormonism does not even have a hell really except for a select few and all those who were cast out before the earth was formed. It is a Christian concept that we all sin, deserve hell and thus need a savior and a religion that provides that savior. Seems like a great program to sustain the religion. I agree with you on the third sentence of your post.
Tacenda Posted March 14, 2015 Posted March 14, 2015 Did your son call the police on the abusive husband?I'm not sure. I know he called the guy and charged him for a new mattress. The guy said she fell or something, so it would be my son's word against his. But I'll have to ask him exactly what took place. He did call the bishop and reported on the ones that were misusing the money.
The Nehor Posted March 14, 2015 Posted March 14, 2015 Why do we all deserve hell? Really who came up with that idea? Mormonism does not even have a hell really except for a select few and all those who were cast out before the earth was formed. It is a Christian concept that we all sin, deserve hell and thus need a savior and a religion that provides that savior. Seems like a great program to sustain the religion. I agree with you on the third sentence of your post. We all deserve hell because of what we have become here. God came up with that idea. That is why in the councils before the world was the idea of going to earth was far too dangerous to be countenanced until the Savior stepped forward to offer redemption from our fallen state. This is taught repeatedly in the Book of Mormon and the Bible. If no atonement was made we would become devils and be consigned to that fate. We volunteered to accept that risk. Looking at it we appear to have been pretty crazy. Mormonism does have a hell and most of those who make it to the age of accountability are going there. The difference between the LDS belief and the rest of the Christian world is that we believe most everyone will eventually repent and be released.
thesometimesaint Posted March 14, 2015 Posted March 14, 2015 We all deserve hell because of what we have become here. God came up with that idea. That is why in the councils before the world was the idea of going to earth was far too dangerous to be countenanced until the Savior stepped forward to offer redemption from our fallen state. This is taught repeatedly in the Book of Mormon and the Bible. If no atonement was made we would become devils and be consigned to that fate. We volunteered to accept that risk. Looking at it we appear to have been pretty crazy. Mormonism does have a hell and most of those who make it to the age of accountability are going there. The difference between the LDS belief and the rest of the Christian world is that we believe most everyone will eventually repent and be released. I believe most everyone will go to Paradise first, a few will experience Spirit Prison, where all will be taught the Gospel and can accept or reject the necessary principles, and ordinances for joy in a Kingdom of Glory. It is truly only those that refuse to accept those principles, and ordinances that will accept only Hell.
Calm Posted March 14, 2015 Posted March 14, 2015 And how do you support this belief from the scriptures?
The Nehor Posted March 14, 2015 Posted March 14, 2015 I believe most everyone will go to Paradise first, a few will experience Spirit Prison, where all will be taught the Gospel and can accept or reject the necessary principles, and ordinances for joy in a Kingdom of Glory. It is truly only those that refuse to accept those principles, and ordinances that will accept only Hell. I would like that to be true but scripturally it seems dubious to say the least. Entrance to paradise requires baptism and unless angels are secretly baptizing everyone I do not see that group being a majority in this or any other age of the earth.
Teancum Posted March 14, 2015 Posted March 14, 2015 We all deserve hell because of what we have become here. God came up with that idea. That is why in the councils before the world was the idea of going to earth was far too dangerous to be countenanced until the Savior stepped forward to offer redemption from our fallen state. This is taught repeatedly in the Book of Mormon and the Bible. If no atonement was made we would become devils and be consigned to that fate. We volunteered to accept that risk. Looking at it we appear to have been pretty crazy. Mormonism does have a hell and most of those who make it to the age of accountability are going there. The difference between the LDS belief and the rest of the Christian world is that we believe most everyone will eventually repent and be released. 1: So we deserve Hell because God planned it that way? Seems like God has a crappy plan then. 2: The idea that we are all fallen and deserve hell is really entrenched in the doctrine of non LDS Christianity. The LDS concept is we are here to be tested. We will all sin. But we have a redeemer. This redeemer will save ALL God's creations save the Sons of Perdition. See D&C 76. However, the other LDS canon outside the D&C do seem more Protestant in the doctrine about these things. 3: So I assume your concept is the LDS hell is if we don't repent and do the ordinances we pay for our sins for a period then receive a proper degree of glory?
mnn727 Posted March 14, 2015 Posted March 14, 2015 How can single mothers afford an apartment and college? Many single mothers do not have a husband or someone to help them. Many return missionaries have to live with their parents because they cannot afford an apartment and college. They have to wait some years. Good, but many do not have a family to help them, many have extreme circumstances, and "there is a great deal of chance" Many hard workers are not in a comfort zone. What would happen if all hard workers leave Walmart, K-Mart, and Mcdonalds? We would have terrible customer service, all hard workers deserve a living wage. I am not saying all hard workers deserve a new 2015 car, but they all of them deserve at least an apartment and food. Do you disagree? NO, I don't agree. I started out in fast food when I was 16, worked hard too - should I have been given and apartment and food?Some jobs (like fast food) are entry level unskilled jobs, you can train anyone with half a brain to do it - and yes, I worked with and trained mentally challenged people to work there.They are not meant to be a career, 1
mnn727 Posted March 14, 2015 Posted March 14, 2015 (edited) How can single mothers afford an apartment and college? Many single mothers do not have a husband or someone to help them. As I said, there are resources. My SiL lived in Section 8 housing, got both welfare and food stamps. Got some kind of scholarship (it was a while back) and student loans took care of the rest.She took classes as she could. I remember vividly going to her graduation. She got a job in her field shortly thereafter in a nearby state, got off all assistance, paid back her student loans, got re-married a few years later to a wonderful man who was a good father to her 2 kids and they had another one together. Was it easy? No, many women in that situation just live of the public dole, she however had drive and ambition - she took the lemons life gave her and made lemon-aid Edited March 14, 2015 by mnn727
The Nehor Posted March 14, 2015 Posted March 14, 2015 1: So we deserve Hell because God planned it that way? Seems like God has a crappy plan then. 2: The idea that we are all fallen and deserve hell is really entrenched in the doctrine of non LDS Christianity. The LDS concept is we are here to be tested. We will all sin. But we have a redeemer. This redeemer will save ALL God's creations save the Sons of Perdition. See D&C 76. However, the other LDS canon outside the D&C do seem more Protestant in the doctrine about these things. 3: So I assume your concept is the LDS hell is if we don't repent and do the ordinances we pay for our sins for a period then receive a proper degree of glory? 1. No we deserve hell because we sinned when we got here. 2. We are here to be tested and we would all go to hell without a Redeemer. I have no idea why you think this is an either/or proposition. 3. Yes, unless said person in hell continues to sin forever. We call those perdition.
The Nehor Posted March 14, 2015 Posted March 14, 2015 NO, I don't agree. I started out in fast food when I was 16, worked hard too - should I have been given and apartment and food?Some jobs (like fast food) are entry level unskilled jobs, you can train anyone with half a brain to do it - and yes, I worked with and trained mentally challenged people to work there.They are not meant to be a career, If you worked there full time then yes, I think you deserve a basic standard of living for your efforts, ideally paid by the employer. If the fast food industry does not make enough to pay its employees enough to survive then said fast food place should go out of business. If you worked 12 hours a week after school and on weekends then no, you probably should not be able to afford a decent apartment.
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