mnn727 Posted October 6, 2014 Posted October 6, 2014 (edited) You do not have to give him money, but if he is very hungry or starving, you should give him something to eat. However, I don't think that that means that we need to facilitate negative or sinful behaviour. Thus, you don't give him money but you provide him with food and you ask him to earn it, as Cal suggested. Make it clear that you do not like his behaviour and will not prop him up but you won't see him starve either. Its a difficult balance. Thank you, I do provide him with some food at times but even then that leaves him more money for his habits cause he know I will not let him starve, I have given him money in the past at times, but see it just goes up in smoke and I refuse to support his habits monetarily any more. Edited October 6, 2014 by mnn727
mtomm Posted October 6, 2014 Posted October 6, 2014 (edited) Thank you, I do provide him with some food at times but even then that leaves him more money for his habits cause he know I will not let him starve, I have given him money in the past at times, but see it just goes up in smoke and I refuse to support his habits monetarily any more. Here, let me give you the answer that you really want since you haven't like any so far: "Please don't give anything more to your free-loading brother! He obviously doesn't deserve it, he doesn't want to help himself and he will never change. You've already done everything you can." Now sleep well. Edited October 6, 2014 by mtomm
CV75 Posted October 6, 2014 Posted October 6, 2014 I don't mean to be disrespectful saying this but he mentioned that Jesus was homeless. Isn't that what usually happens when you take no thought for what you'll eat, drink, or where you'll live? Why didn't Heavenly Father give him a house if he needed a house? Not having read the text, from memory I gather that Jesus didn’t need a house at that point in order to descend below all things. All Jesus came to earth to do was to do His Father's will, so I assume His continuing from grace to grace required this particular experience. From that, we get His ability to say what He did in Matthew 25;31-46 and the instruction to respond to the poor accordingly.
mnn727 Posted October 6, 2014 Posted October 6, 2014 Here, let me give you the answer that you really want since you haven't like any so far: "Please don't give anything more to your free-loading brother! He obviously doesn't deserve it, he doesn't want to help himself and he will never change. You've already done everything you can." Now sleep well.whatever.
LJP Posted October 6, 2014 Posted October 6, 2014 Mnn727. You obviously worry about your brother. He is addicted. I certainly think it is fine that you don't give your brother money or regular food. I can't imagine how mad, angry and guilt-ridden you must feel. I think Satan enjoys it when we do this to ourselves. With this in mind, when I was heard Elder Holland's talk, I was picturing the poor as truly the poor who were born without any privledge or hope, or those who lost work because of poorhealth or bad luck. What I loved about Elder Hollands talk was it made me realize how blessed most of us are. We complain when we don't have enough money to get an iPad. But there are such incredibly poor people that have NOTHING! They are sort of forced to be silent. It makes me quake with shame and embarrassment. Embarrassment for whining and complaining over my hard job. I also feel so grateful and humbled for what I have. That is what I think a Elder Holland was trying to say. I need to be more generous with my fast offerings and humanitarian aid. I need to reach out to the poor and keep an eye out for where my donations will be well received.I think your brother should be prayed for and loved. But in my opinion, giving him things is probably enabling him. 2
MorningStar Posted October 6, 2014 Posted October 6, 2014 whatever.I don't think you need to feel guilty. Bishops have to discern in what ways they should help people who are asking for help. They go over their finances, expenses, etc. to determine what should be given. You only have so much to give and if you want to help people who are trying to help themselves, that should be fine. My grandpa was an alcoholic. We bought him clothes and stuff, but we never gave him money. He still managed to find someone who felt sorry enough for him to give him free drinks and he drank himself into a coma, dying a week later. That person didn't "help" him. 2
mtomm Posted October 6, 2014 Posted October 6, 2014 whatever. Really, that sounded snarky and harsh but it's true. If you've done your part, you've done it. I don't think anyone will be able to make it all okay as there is no perfect answer to this situation. Only you can know if you've done right and good by your brother. If that is the case then Elder Holland's talk does to apply to your situation.
thesometimesaint Posted October 6, 2014 Posted October 6, 2014 How is that supposed to answer my question? My main issue is that my brother makes enough to live on, he could be comfortable if he lived within his means, but he throws away well over 1/3 of his income on smoking and gambling. Why should I have to help him when he is not interested in helping himself? Yet it appears that is what Elder Holland said. Help him provide for those things that he really needs. Smoking isn't a real need. So encourage him to seek medial help even if it is to help him use the anti-smoking patch. Gambling isn't a need either offer to help him use programs like Gamblers Anonymous. IE; Sit with him in the meetings as emotional support.There really are many ways to help.
stemelbow Posted October 6, 2014 Posted October 6, 2014 Giving, serving, charity, all that, is exactly what we should be doing, no doubt. BUt what really troubles me and to my delight Elder Holland actually mentioned it, is the more troubling question and concern, Why is there such vast disparity in resources and circumstance for people in this world? Circumstance is perhaps the most troubling issue. Why are so few blessed to have found the Church if the Church is meant to be such an effective blessing to humans?
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted October 6, 2014 Posted October 6, 2014 How is that supposed to answer my question? My main issue is that my brother makes enough to live on, he could be comfortable if he lived within his means, but he throws away well over 1/3 of his income on smoking and gambling. Why should I have to help him when he is not interested in helping himself? Yet it appears that is what Elder Holland said.You should help him. However there are more ways to help some one other than just throwing money or wealth at something or some one, as some of our friends on this board seem to think. I.e., If we don't spend money we are not really helping some one.
Paddy Posted October 6, 2014 Posted October 6, 2014 (edited) I get the feeling he was talking about the problem with some of our cultural and other ideaological accruements that we need to remove. It may seem obvious but I think he was talking to the latter day saints directly and not the poor or the rich or non members. It seems from some of the comments already in this thread that we still have trouble letting go of some things we need to. I wonder if elder holland was attempting to introduce a new paradigm in relation to social justice and welfare in the church??However, in saying that working with those that a poor is a difficult and ethically challenging thing to do. I have been doing it for the last 15 years as an occupation and it still throws up significant challenges!! Edited October 6, 2014 by Paddy
Paddy Posted October 6, 2014 Posted October 6, 2014 I don't think you need to feel guilty. .... You only have so much to give and if you want to help people who are trying to help themselves, that should be fine.And yet this was exactly what I thought elder holland was trying preach against.
Calm Posted October 7, 2014 Posted October 7, 2014 Here, let me give you the answer that you really want since you haven't like any so far: "Please don't give anything more to your free-loading brother! He obviously doesn't deserve it, he doesn't want to help himself and he will never change. You've already done everything you can." Now sleep well.He liked mine, he gave me a point for it.
Duncan Posted October 7, 2014 Posted October 7, 2014 (edited) Everything people have been saying proves to me that poverty is complex issue, some people are born into it and just can't get out (my dad and my Mum's friend) just never seem to break through. On the point of enabling if people stopped enabling what would happen? would these folks turn to the street and steal and/or other uncivil behaviours? I don't know what is worse enabling someone or having them turned onto the streets and then getting involved in other things. I am thinking about Isabel in the Book of Mormon what if she was prostituting herself because she needed the money to feed her family because her husband left her and the family wasn't there, can't support or abandoned her? we'll never know Edited October 7, 2014 by Duncan
bluebell Posted October 7, 2014 Posted October 7, 2014 And yet this was exactly what I thought elder holland was trying preach against.You think elder Holland was preaching against being a wise steward of our resources? 3
mbh26 Posted October 7, 2014 Posted October 7, 2014 Not having read the text, from memory I gather that Jesus didn’t need a house at that point in order to descend below all things. All Jesus came to earth to do was to do His Father's will, so I assume His continuing from grace to grace required this particular experience. From that, we get His ability to say what He did in Matthew 25;31-46 and the instruction to respond to the poor accordingly. So if someone would have built Jesus a house, would that have frustrated the plan of Salvation?
mtomm Posted October 7, 2014 Posted October 7, 2014 He liked mine, he gave me a point for it. I don't think it counts, you get all the rep points.
Paddy Posted October 7, 2014 Posted October 7, 2014 You think elder Holland was preaching against being a wise steward of our resources?Not at all. His talk was about being wise. I was commenting on the idea that you should only help those who help themselves. He stated pretty clearly around 9:30 into his talk that people have the core responsibility of helping themselves before helping others but then right after qualified that by saying that we should seek gods help in helping others that can't help themselves. It is an interesting tension between the responsibility of the poor and our responsibility.
Duncan Posted October 7, 2014 Posted October 7, 2014 Not at all. His talk was about being wise. I was commenting on the idea that you should only help those who help themselves. He stated pretty clearly around 9:30 into his talk that people have the core responsibility of helping themselves before helping others but then right after qualified that by saying that we should seek gods help in helping others that can't help themselves. It is an interesting tension between the responsibility of the poor and our responsibility. I think of the parable of a certain Samaritan in Luke 10, he helped someone who couldn't help themself
Trencher7 Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 (edited) We should not look down on poor people and assume they are all looking for handouts. Money does not bring happiness. When I served on my mission I lived with the poorest people on Earth. They had money sufficient for their needs even though they were far poorer than what standards are here in the US to qualify. And they were happy. I think "needy" is a better term than "poor". There could be someone who is in need due to a certain situation and because of financial limitations need our help. Those we should not hesitate to assist. If being poor alone was all it took to qualify for our help, then the Church should be sending checks to everyone who qualifies. Edited October 9, 2014 by Trencher7 1
Ahab Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 Thank you, I do provide him with some food at times but even then that leaves him more money for his habits cause he know I will not let him starve, I have given him money in the past at times, but see it just goes up in smoke and I refuse to support his habits monetarily any more.Money isn't the only thing people need, or the only thing you can give to others. Sounds to me like your brother needs some help understanding what you already know about money management, so spend some time (or some more time) trying to educate him and help him learn what you know. Even if he is resistant or stubborn or just slow at putting all that you know to good use to get out of the mess he is in. And it's okay to put conditions on your help, like saying you'll give him some of your money only if he stops gambling his money away, and stops buying cigarettes, because you don't want to support him in doing those things in any way. Love is not about just giving people whatever they want. You should only want to do what is good for him.
The Nehor Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 You think elder Holland was preaching against being a wise steward of our resources? Why are you playing rhetorical games? Not helping the poor or selectively helping only those you happen to believe deserve it does not stop being a sin because you slip in scriptural language and call it being a "wise steward". 1
bluebell Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 Why are you playing rhetorical games?Not helping the poor or selectively helping only those you happen to believe deserve it does not stop being a sin because you slip in scriptural language and call it being a "wise steward".I'm not playing any games, I'm being serious. If you have $100 to help the poor with, is it wise or helpful to use it *repeatedly* to feed someone you know uses his money to gamble or on drugs?This isn't about who deserves the money. It's about how can you do the most good with a very limited resource. And also not enable harmful behavior. Is it sinful to say "I've given you money for years and it's not helping so I'm going to use that money in a different way"? 2
bluebell Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 Not at all. His talk was about being wise. I was commenting on the idea that you should only help those who help themselves. He stated pretty clearly around 9:30 into his talk that people have the core responsibility of helping themselves before helping others but then right after qualified that by saying that we should seek gods help in helping others that can't help themselves. It is an interesting tension between the responsibility of the poor and our responsibility.I agree it is a fine line.
The Nehor Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 I'm not playing any games, I'm being serious.If you have $100 to help the poor with, is it wise or helpful to use it *repeatedly* to feed someone you know uses his money to gamble or on drugs?This isn't about who deserves the money. It's about how can you do the most good with a very limited resource. And also not enable harmful behavior.Is it sinful to say "I've given you money for years and it's not helping so I'm going to use that money in a different way"? Give him a Snickers bar then.
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