Ahab Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 I'm not playing any games, I'm being serious. If you have $100 to help the poor with, is it wise or helpful to use it *repeatedly* to feed someone you know uses his money to gamble or on drugs?This isn't about who deserves the money. It's about how can you do the most good with a very limited resource. And also not enable harmful behavior. Is it sinful to say "I've given you money for years and it's not helping so I'm going to use that money in a different way"?Not if you've warned him and told him what you expected from him. You're not required to give a gift with no strings attached.
bluebell Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 Give him a Snickers bar then. Yes! The world would be a better place if more people ate Snickers.
Ahab Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 Yes! The world would be a better place if more people ate Snickers. Non sequitur. Red Herring. Obfuscation.CFR that more people eating a Snickers bar would make the world a better place. You can not be serious.
The Nehor Posted October 9, 2014 Posted October 9, 2014 Non sequitur. Red Herring. Obfuscation.CFR that more people eating a Snickers bar would make the world a better place.You can not be serious. Snickers satisfies. If you want true happiness though.....Nutri-Grain......
MorningStar Posted October 10, 2014 Posted October 10, 2014 Here is a quote from his talk: Now, lest I be accused of proposing quixotic global social programs or of endorsing panhandling as a growth industry, I reassure you that my reverence for principles of industry, thrift, self-reliance, and ambition is as strong as that of any man or woman alive. We are always expected to help ourselves before we seek help from others. Furthermore, I don’t know exactly how each of you should fulfill your obligation to those who do not or cannot always help themselves. But I know that God knows, and He will help you and guide you in compassionate acts of discipleship if you are conscientiously wanting and praying and looking for ways to keep a commandment He has given us again and again. It doesn't say that mnn has to give money to his brother. At the beginning of the talk, it talks about helping the poor in spirit. There are other ways he can help his brother without basically throwing money down the drain that could be used to help someone he also loves who is needy and will actually use it for food, clothing, etc. instead of gambling. He can pray for him. He can offer to be a support for his various addictions. As I mentioned over a year ago, my patriarch and his wife were always doing everything they could to help their grandson, which was very kind of them. The day he got out of jail (he had robbed some places to support his drug addiction), they drove him all over the place to run his errands, see his parol officer, offered him a place to stay to get back on his feet, and even threw a welcome home party for him. That night he strangled them both with a shoelace and shoved them in the closet, took their valuables, pawned his grandfather's ring that he had never taken off of his finger, and more. They could have helped in ways that wouldn't have put them in danger. I don't think God would have frowned on it if they decided they needed to not take him in for their safety. Each situation is different. If you give someone money who immediately disposes of it (gambling), it's not helping the person. And if that's all you had to give, you're missing the opportunity to help someone who will use it to support themselves. I have a cousin who is needy, partially because of his own choices and partially because of his circumstances. My grandma took him in and all he did was play video games, didn't lift a finger to help around the house, and when she let him borrow her car, he had the nerve to smoke in it. There is a time to tell people "no". She let him stay there a long time and he didn't do anything to take advantage of the opportunities he had because he was living there rent free. 1
MormonFreeThinker Posted December 10, 2014 Author Posted December 10, 2014 The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints issued the following statement"We reaffirm the importance for individuals and families to be as self-sufficient as their particular circumstances allow"http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-encourages-principled-approach-health-care-coverage-needy-utahns The First Presidency and Council of the Twelve Apostles of the Church issued a statement in 1875“The experience of mankind has shown that the people of communities and nations among whom wealth is the most equally distributed, enjoy the largest degree of liberty, are the least exposed to tyranny and oppression and suffer the least from luxurious habits which beget vice...One of the great evils with which our own nation is menaced at the present time is the wonderful growth of wealth in the hands of a comparatively few individuals" A Proclamation on the Economy from the First Presidency and Twelve (1875) Quoted in the History of Salt Lake City
MormonFreeThinker Posted March 8, 2015 Author Posted March 8, 2015 (edited) The poor deserve a living, at least a small apartment and food. Today, many full time employees cannot afford a small apartment and food. Many parents don't have a life because they have to work about 60 hours a week (3 different jobs). Edited March 8, 2015 by MormonFreeThinker
ksfisher Posted March 9, 2015 Posted March 9, 2015 The poor deserve a living, at least a small apartment and food. Today, many full time employees cannot afford a small apartment and food. Many parents don't have a life because they have to work about 60 hours a week (3 different jobs). I don't think you're going to find that anyone disagrees with you on this.
Alan Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) The poor deserve a lot more than a small apartment and food.It is said that the older you become the more right wing you get.Not me. It seems as I get older I am becoming more and more left wing. I believe this is because of the inequality I see in the world and the rich and fortunate lauding it over the rest of us.The day of reckoning will come. Edited March 10, 2015 by Alan 1
JLHPROF Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 The poor deserve a lot more than a small apartment and food.It is said that the older you become the more right wing you get.Not me. It seems as I get older I am becoming more and more left wing. I believe this is because of the inequality I see in the world and the rich and fortunate lauding it over the rest of us.The day of reckoning will come. This reminds me of the famous line: "If you're not a socialist in your 20's you have no heart. If you're a socialist in your 40's you have no brain." But I digress into the political...
mnn727 Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) The poor deserve a lot more than a small apartment and food.It is said that the older you become the more right wing you get.Not me. It seems as I get older I am becoming more and more left wing. I believe this is because of the inequality I see in the world and the rich and fortunate lauding it over the rest of us.The day of reckoning will come.But it appears you are talking about the 1% verses the destitute. How do you feel about those people with similar incomes where one person is frugal and saves and is not rich but is well off due to their frugality, and the other spends wildly and never has a spare dime and repeatedly asks for help from the frugal saver? Frankly I am sick of 'throwing money at problems' You could confiscate all of the wealth the 1% has and distribute it to the poor and 99.9999% of those poor would be poor again within a month or 2.You need to change the person not just give them something. Edited March 10, 2015 by mnn727
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 Frankly I am sick of 'throwing money at problems' You could confiscate all of the wealth the 1% has and distribute it to the poor and 99.9999% of those poor would be poor again within a month or 2.You need to change the person not just give them something.The speaks to the larger issue. You can give a man a fish or teach him to fish. I would rather provide, for people that want to but can't for various reasons, a job then just throw money at them. Sometimes that is not possible. And when that is not possible then we can address that. But this blanket "here is money" that the Left does, is not the solution. Some one once said that "redistribution of wealth will eradicate poverty". That simply is not the case and there are several examples of that failing. One such example is the failed war on poverty. Were poverty is higher now then when the US started it. Oh well. 1
thesometimesaint Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 Income distribution in USSEE https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KIo9gSHv9U4m4A1gL7w8QF;_ylu=X3oDMTByZWc0dGJtBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQDBGdwb3MDMQ--?p=Income+distribution+in+US+youtube&vid=a175663414efa05869e66575081dfbc6&l=6%3A24&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DVN.608050443414211149%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DQPKKQnijnsM&***=Wealth+Inequality+in+America&c=0&sigr=11bc4u7hf&sigt=10s5acbg8&sigi=11rpo7re3&age=1353447858&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Av&hsimp=yhs-005&hspart=mozilla&tt=b
bluebell Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 The poor deserve a lot more than a small apartment and food. Who's to say what any of us deserve? I don't deserve most of what i have (if any of it) but I'm thankful for it and try to share it with others regardless. Where does this idea that we all deserve certain things come from? Is it in the scriptures somewhere and i've just forgotten about it? 4
MormonFreeThinker Posted March 11, 2015 Author Posted March 11, 2015 (edited) You could confiscate all of the wealth the 1% has and distribute it to the poor and 99.9999% of those poor would be poor again within a month or 2. Please do not judge, not all the poor are lazy or unwise with their money. Many just need a job that pays them fairly, but they can't get it. "One of the great evils with which our own nation is menaced at the present time is the wonderful growth of wealth in the hands of a comparatively few individuals" A Proclamation on the Economy from the First Presidency and Twelve (1875) Many employees cannot afford healthy food, and many of them get diabetes because of that sad fact. Edited March 11, 2015 by MormonFreeThinker
mnn727 Posted March 11, 2015 Posted March 11, 2015 Please do not judge, not all the poor are lazy or unwise with their money. Many just need a job that pays them fairly, but they can't get it. They can't get "a job that pays them fairly" because they are not willing to do what it takes to get one: train for it, get an education, move to where the jobs are.
thesometimesaint Posted March 11, 2015 Posted March 11, 2015 Business isn't in the job of providing a livable income for its employees. Its sole obligation is to make money for its investors. Employees are just one means to that end. 1
JLHPROF Posted March 11, 2015 Posted March 11, 2015 Business isn't in the job of providing a livable income for its employees. Its sole obligation is to make money for its investors. Employees are just one means to that end. Just another reason capitalism (the world) and consecration (the gospel) are incompatible and at very best can be in an uneasy co-existence.
mtomm Posted March 11, 2015 Posted March 11, 2015 (edited) Business isn't in the job of providing a livable income for its employees. Its sole obligation is to make money for its investors. Employees are just one means to that end. Investors or for the owner. Period full stop. People don't create a business so they can hire employees. Edited March 11, 2015 by mtomm
MormonFreeThinker Posted March 12, 2015 Author Posted March 12, 2015 (edited) They can't get "a job that pays them fairly" because they are not willing to do what it takes to get one: train for it, get an education, move to where the jobs are. What about single mothers? What about people that don't have high skills? What about people that cannot afford to go to college?What about people with difficult circumstances? Just because some can doesn't mean everybody can. Ex-convicts cannot even get a job at Mcdonalds. Bytheway,many young adults (return missionaries) cannot get married young because they can't find a job that pays fairly, they cannot afford a small apartment. Maybe 20 years ago it was possible, but not anymore. Edited March 13, 2015 by MormonFreeThinker
Teancum Posted March 13, 2015 Posted March 13, 2015 Business isn't in the job of providing a livable income for its employees. Its sole obligation is to make money for its investors. Employees are just one means to that end.I own part of a business and have the head role of running the place, I disagree with you. One of my goals is building a viable business that providers jobs and economic substance for the team members (employees) and to leave a legacy where someday someone else is doing the same in a larger more substantial sense. If we don't pay pur employees a fair competife wage and create a culture where they can be engaged and fulfilled we won't long be in business. 1
Calm Posted March 13, 2015 Posted March 13, 2015 I know a lot of entrepreneurs who started up their business in order to help family and friends have income as much as themselves.
cacheman Posted March 13, 2015 Posted March 13, 2015 You could confiscate all of the wealth the 1% has and distribute it to the poor and 99.9999% of those poor would be poor again within a month or 2.You need to change the person not just give them something.What change would need to occur? I'm currently in a third world country, and most of the poor here have a strong work ethic. How specifically do they need to change to become like you? Nevermind.... I see you answered it in a later post. They need to be willing to do what it takes (because they're not yet willing). Maybe I should tell them to get out of that field or factory and get some education or move to where the jobs are. Sounds simple enough....
The Nehor Posted March 13, 2015 Posted March 13, 2015 Who's to say what any of us deserve? I don't deserve most of what i have (if any of it) but I'm thankful for it and try to share it with others regardless. Where does this idea that we all deserve certain things come from? Is it in the scriptures somewhere and i've just forgotten about it?It is not a matter of deserving. We all deserve hell. However we are under commandment not to let others suffer by withholding our substance even if they deserve it. In fact thinking that the poor deserve it is explicitly sinful and a cause for repentance according to King Benjamin.
The Nehor Posted March 13, 2015 Posted March 13, 2015 Business isn't in the job of providing a livable income for its employees. Its sole obligation is to make money for its investors. Employees are just one means to that end.If said company is controlled by selfish jerks with no sense of community or moral responsibility then this is correct. Sadly said jerks will burn in hell so I do not recommend this course of action.
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