Elder Holland, The Poor

[MormonFreeThinker]

Is anyone saying they don't?

Many rich people don't pay the poor enough for healthy food and a descent apartment.

For example, Walmart employees (mostly adults) earn about 10,000 a year. 

So, 10,000 * 1 million US employees = 10 Billion dollars. 

Total Walton family wealth: $144.7 billion

Plus the Executive Management: more Billions of dollars. 

 

 

I completely agree with this.  

 

Try to be happy if you are poor in Mexico. Many parents have sick children, they can't feed them properly, and they have to be worried about the criminals that live near them. 

 

The First Presidency and Council of the Twelve Apostles of the Church issued a statement in 1875

“The experience of mankind has shown that the people of communities and nations among whom wealth is the most equally distributed, enjoy the largest degree of liberty, are the least exposed to tyranny and oppression and suffer the least from luxurious habits which beget vice...One of the great evils with which our own nation is menaced at the present time is the wonderful growth of wealth in the hands of a comparatively few individuals"  A Proclamation on the Economy from the First Presidency and Twelve (1875)  

Quoted in the History of Salt Lake City 

Edited March 16, 2015 by MormonFreeThinker

[pogi]

We have the right to pursue happiness. Not necessarily the attainment of it. OTOH poverty extremely limits our pursuit of happiness.

 

 

Where a man's treasure is, there will his heart be also.

[mnn727]

Are you saying that people without a college degree don't deserve healthy food, an apartment, and a life?

 

 

Not everybody can afford college, not everybody has grants. 

It is not easy to go to college if you have to feed a family (barely with cheap food). Many jobs don't allow their workers to go to college because they sometimes ask them to stay extra hours. Factories, big businesses, and many others want the poor to remain poor because that is how they benefit, that is why they create difficult circumstances for the poor.  

 

 

mnn727 thinks that only smart and educated people deserve a life. 

I can make wild statements too, but it does nothing but act as an insult.

You really are not reading what I am saying so why bother.

[Jeanne]

I was just wondering if the church helped Britany return home.  He parents startea GoFundMe to bring her home.  She died on her mission a bit ago.

[pogi]

I was just wondering if the church helped Britany return home.  He parents startea GoFundMe to bring her home.  She died on her mission a bit ago.

 

When I initially set up this gofundme account it was mean't to help with the travel expenses for Terry and Nicole to get to their daughter in Argentina. 

After I heard she had died I changed the account to help cover Brittanys funeral expenses. I have since learned that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is covering the costs of Brittanys medical expenses ,returning her to the United States and funeral expenses.

 

Kally Heslop

 

http://www.gofundme.com/oiwn2w

Edited March 16, 2015 by pogi

[MormonFreeThinker]

I can make wild statements too, but it does nothing but act as an insult.

You really are not reading what I am saying so why bother.

 

I understand, you think everybody is capable of getting an education and a better job. 

Even if true, it doesn't mean low wage workers deserve nothing. 

 

All workers deserve a life. 

Edited March 17, 2015 by MormonFreeThinker

[mnn727]

No adult deserves things handed to them.

If you take a low paying job because thats all you are qualified for, thats on you.

 

Just for the record, I hate Wally Worlds business plan, but then I don't own the company nor do I ever shop there.

Edited March 17, 2015 by mnn727

[Alan]

"No adult deserves things handed to them". Really?

Given that all we have is given to us freely by God, without a price, suggests your statement is less than true.

 

Do your kids get free education, even if you don't pay tax because you are in a low paying job?

Should you be allowed to use the public roads if you are on low pay and pay no tax?

Public parks etc?

 

This list could get very long if I had more time.

 

The world we live in is a Babylonian construction, as is the idea of a meritocracy. These are polar opposites to the original plan. Remember, Adam and Eve had everything provided for them in the garden, and no price was attached to any of it. Whether or not they deserved it never entered the equation.

[JLHPROF]

"No adult deserves things handed to them". Really?

Given that all we have is given to us freely by God, without a price, suggests your statement is less than true.

 

Do your kids get free education, even if you don't pay tax because you are in a low paying job?

Should you be allowed to use the public roads if you are on low pay and pay no tax?

Public parks etc?

 

This list could get very long if I had more time.

 

The world we live in is a Babylonian construction, as is the idea of a meritocracy. These are polar opposites to the original plan. Remember, Adam and Eve had everything provided for them in the garden, and no price was attached to any of it. Whether or not they deserved it never entered the equation.

 

This is true.  People forget that mankind having to live by "the sweat of their brow" is part of a Telestial world and the curse, not even Terrestrial in nature.  WORK may be eternal in nature, but working to support yourself is not.

God works, but he doesn't work to keep a roof over his head, food to eat, or clothes to wear.  And he certainly doesn't work to pay bills.

 

If this world is ever to become Terrestrial (Millennium) or eventually Celestial "working for a living" will go away and working to build the kingdom will replace it.

Edited March 17, 2015 by JLHPROF

[Jeanne]

 

 

When I initially set up this gofundme account it was mean't to help with the travel expenses for Terry and Nicole to get to their daughter in Argentina. 

After I heard she had died I changed the account to help cover Brittanys funeral expenses. I have since learned that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is covering the costs of Brittanys medical expenses ,returning her to the United States and funeral expenses.

 

Kally Heslop

 

http://www.gofundme.com/oiwn2w

 

My apologies and acknowledgement that the church, family  and friends have contributed.  Again, I am sorry..much love to Brittany's family.

[Deborah]

I always find these discussions on the poor interesting because essentially when Christ was here he did little for the poor as far as material things. He did enrich them spiritually. He did teach that it is the individual's responsiblitiy (not the state's) to help those in need. He did assign his people to reach out and do all that they can to help the poor and anyone in need (material or spiritual). Christ himself ministered to those in his reach, but not everyone was within his reach and thus his admonition for others to reach out. As Mother Teresa said she can't help everyone but she can help those within her reach.

 

For those who may not know each stake assigns a Bishop whose charge is those who may temporarily pass through the stake boundaries in need. I personally was helped one time while travelling out of state and my car broke down. One day while at church I was in the hall after church and we were milling around by the stake president's office when a man in poor clothing came in and asked for help. The Stake President came out and they ended up setting him up in a room for the night and giving him some money to get him on his way.

 

We each need to be more mindful of those who we may "conicidentally" run into. We may have crossed their paths because we were the ones who could or would help in that moment with a kind word or a small amount of money or a ride to somewhere where they could get help we couldn't give.

[thesometimesaint]

True. IF everyone did just one good thing to just one other person this world would be a far better place. Governments only step in when individual action is not good enough.

[JLHPROF]

 Governments only step in when individual action is not good enough.

 

:rofl:   Hahaha...oh wait, you were serious? 

[thesometimesaint]

Glad to give you a good laugh.

SEE http://www.truth-out.org/buzzflash/videos/video/iceland-does-the-unimaginable-to-its-criminal-bankers

[The Nehor]

True. IF everyone did just one good thing to just one other person this world would be a far better place. Governments only step in when individual action is not good enough.

It is amazing how this unscriptural idea that government helping citizens is almost satanic has become almost an article of faith amongst many LDS.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

:rofl:   Hahaha...oh wait, you were serious? 

So, we learned that the private sector always does thing better than the public sector. Seems we have reached a paradox.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

It is amazing how this unscriptural idea that government helping citizens is almost satanic has become almost an article of faith amongst many LDS.

This is called a straw man.

[The Nehor]

This is called a straw man.

Nope, I have heard people on this very board espouse this. For a straw man it sure screams a lot when I hit it. Are people who espouse this view like the Scarecrow from the Wizard of Oz?

[MormonFreeThinker]

No adult deserves things handed to them.

If you take a low paying job because thats all you are qualified for, thats on you.

 

How is working doing nothing? 

So you think low wage workers must be treated as slaves?  

They can't afford healthy food, they can't afford a house, they can't afford anything. 

 

What would Jesus say? 

What Do Great Musicians Have in Common?

"There is a great deal of chance, or serendipity, or even luck to success in business" - Mitt Romney 

Edited March 17, 2015 by MormonFreeThinker

[VideoGameJunkie]

Jesus was poor. During His ministry He was a hobo with no place to sleep. Jesus had compassion on the poor so we should help the poor with donations on our tithing slips, with donations to fast offering and humanitarian aid.

[mnn727]

How is working doing nothing? 

So you think low wage workers must be treated as slaves?  

They can't afford healthy food, they can't afford a house, they can't afford anything. 

 

What would Jesus say? 

What Do Great Musicians Have in Common?

"There is a great deal of chance, or serendipity, or even luck to success in business" - Mitt Romney 

Once again you come up with something that has nothing to do with what I actually said. Nice twist. That straw man sure is getting beat up.

Edited March 18, 2015 by mnn727

[JLHPROF]

Jesus was poor. During His ministry He was a hobo with no place to sleep. Jesus had compassion on the poor so we should help the poor with donations on our tithing slips, with donations to fast offering and humanitarian aid.

 

I don't know that the Savior was nearly as poor as you think.  He certainly travelled around a lot but he wasn't homeless.

[MormonFreeThinker]

Once again you come up with something that has nothing to do with what I actually said. Nice twist. That straw man sure is getting beat up.

 

Where is the straw man? 

 

I said "All workers deserve a life"

You said "No adult deserves things handed to them."

I said "How is working not doing anything?"

 

Again, even it if is true that all workers are capable of getting a better education and a better job, it doesn't mean low wage workers deserve nothing. 

All workers deserve healthy food, at least an apartment, and a life, but a low paying job does not allow them. 

 

The top 1% get richer by making the poor get poorer. 

Edited March 18, 2015 by MormonFreeThinker

[Kenngo1969]

... The top 1% get richer by making the poor get poorer. 

I'm late to this party, I lack the patience to read the entire thread, and I have neither the time nor the inclination for a ***-for-tat back-and-forth exchange.  That said, that's true in many cases: Bernie Madoff and numerous other Ponzi schemers, MLM-ers, and other things of that sort, for example.  But wealth creation isn't a "zero-sum" game.  Suppose I invent something.  I need to manufacture it on a large scale, so I have a factory built.  Have I made the construction workers who build my factory poorer?  I hire people to staff my manufacturing plant.  Have I made the people who manufacture my product poorer?  If, rather than turning to existing retail outlets to sell my product, I have retail facilities built.  Have I made the construction workers who build my retail outlets poorer?  I hire people to staff my retail outlets.  Have I made my salespeople poorer?  Suppose I don't manufacture my product from scratch, but rather obtain parts from other suppliers.  Have I made those suppliers poorer?  I'm not simply trying to hog a huge slice of an already-existing pie; I'm making a bigger pie, and I'm sharing it with everyone who builds my facilities, manufactures my product, staffs my retail outlets, and so on.

 

Yes, I know, my understanding of economics is woefully deficient, and you'll probably condescend to me as though I'm a kindergartner.  Fire away.  As I say, I lack the time, the patience, and the inclination for an ongoing back-and-forth, ***-for-tat exchange.  Congratulations!  You win!

 

P.S.: Oops!  I forgot.  t-i-t is a forbidden word.  What if I were to say I find this exchange t-i-t-tillating? (Wrong word.  What if I were to say I find it scintillating?

Edited March 18, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[The Nehor]

I'm late to this party, I lack the patience to read the entire thread, and I have neither the time nor the inclination for a ***-for-tat back-and-forth exchange.  That said, that's true in many cases: Bernie Madoff and numerous other Ponzi schemers, MLM-ers, and other things of that sort, for example.  But wealth creation isn't a "zero-sum" game.  Suppose I invent something.  I need to manufacture it on a large scale, so I have a factory built.  Have I made the construction workers who build my factory poorer?  I hire people to staff my manufacturing plant.  Have I made the people who manufacture my product poorer?  If, rather than turning to existing retail outlets to sell my product, I have retail facilities built.  Have I made the construction workers who build my retail outlets poorer?  I hire people to staff my retail outlets.  Have I made my salespeople poorer?  Suppose I don't manufacture my product from scratch, but rather obtain parts from other suppliers.  Have I made those suppliers poorer?  I'm not simply trying to hog a huge slice of an already-existing pie; I'm making a bigger pie, and I'm sharing it with everyone who builds my facilities, manufactures my product, staffs my retail outlets, and so on.

 

Yes, I know, my understanding of economics is woefully deficient, and you'll probably condescend to me as though I'm a kindergartner.  Fire away.  As I say, I lack the time, the patience, and the inclination for an ongoing back-and-forth, ***-for-tat exchange.  Congratulations!  You win!

 

P.S.: Oops!  I forgot.  t-i-t is a forbidden word.  What if I were to say I find this exchange t-i-t-tillating? (Wrong word.  What if I were to say I find it scintillating?

On the whole this is true and if the wages you pay are rising equally with the cost of living then all is well. They are sadly not. The value of saved money is falling as wealth becomes more concentrated. Economic recovery requires putting money in the hands of consumers. The best way to get an economy rolling is more money amongst the lower classes as they spend their money quickly. As real wages fall relative to cost of living economic activity decreases. It is a Tragedy of the Commons situation as virtually every large company wants consumers with more cash to spend but they do not want to raise wages.

This is not really your fault in your scenario but it is still a fact. A large expanding wealth gap is possibly even more dangerous. Historically the usual solution to wealth disparity on this scale is massive revolution, either done within the system politically or outside of itin a more violent manner. Obama asked his strategists how he could bring up the problem without being accused of class warfare and they had no real suggestions on how to keep his opponents from harping on that point endlessly. I am under no delusions that shutting down a dialogue on the situation will prevent actual real class warfare but I am not a stupid politician spewing rhetoric to appeal to my base so what do I know?

I am beginning to suspect that those wars and rumors of wars we are told about May not have as external a source as I used to believe. Economic mobility is falling. The United States is slipping towards a more hardened class system. The Book of Mormon does not have nice things to say about such societies.