Deborah Posted March 21, 2015 Posted March 21, 2015 but the rich shouldn't get richer. Why is the income gap growing?Their billions are growing, not decreasing. If they are continuing to invest their money and downsize at the same time of course they will get richer. I really don't understand the attitude that those who have should be punished because someone else doesn't have. Isn't one of the Ten Commandments thou shalt not covet.
thesometimesaint Posted March 21, 2015 Posted March 21, 2015 (edited) If they are continuing to invest their money and downsize at the same time of course they will get richer. I really don't understand the attitude that those who have should be punished because someone else doesn't have. Isn't one of the Ten Commandments thou shalt not covet. It is and another one of the Ten Commandments is "Thou shalt not steal". Wage theft is realSEE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_theft Edited March 21, 2015 by thesometimesaint
MormonFreeThinker Posted March 21, 2015 Author Posted March 21, 2015 (edited) If they are continuing to invest their money and downsize at the same time of course they will get richer. I really don't understand the attitude that those who have should be punished because someone else doesn't have. Isn't one of the Ten Commandments thou shalt not covet. You did not answer my question. the rich invest to get richer, not to help the poor.Billionaires are getting more billions of dollars, how is the government hurting them?Walmart, Target, and others are voluntarily going to increase their minimum wage, so how are things hard for them? What is the evidence? You forgot another commandment Some employers are not fair to their employees; they pay them less than they should. Satan says, “Take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor” (2 Nephi 28: 8 ). Taking unfair advantage is a form of dishonesty. Providing inferior service or merchandise is cheating. Gospel Principles, (2011), 179–83 Edited March 22, 2015 by MormonFreeThinker
Deborah Posted March 21, 2015 Posted March 21, 2015 It is and another one of the Ten Commandments is "Thou shalt not steal". Wage theft is realSEE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_theft ??? If someone agrees to work for a certain wage how is that theft? They can negotiate for a higher wage or find another job. 1
MormonFreeThinker Posted March 21, 2015 Author Posted March 21, 2015 ??? If someone agrees to work for a certain wage how is that theft? They can negotiate for a higher wage or find another job. Perhaps if you read the link you will know what he is talking about. Bytheway, low-wage workers agree because they have nowhere else to go, it is not an option.
Sleeper Cell Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 Perhaps if you read the link you will know what he is talking about. Unless you can show where Deborah advocated violating the law, that link is a straw man response to her argument. Where has she said, for example, that employers should not obey the minimum wage laws? Disagreeing with minimum wage laws is not the same as advocating their violation. And I am not even sure she disagrees with minimum wage laws, per se -- just one of the common justifications for them. I really don't understand the attitude that those who have should be punished because someone else doesn't have.
Sleeper Cell Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 Bytheway, low-wage workers agree because they have nowhere else to go, it is not an option. If a low wage worker has nowhere else to go, how does it help to give his employer an incentive to eliminate his job? For example, by forcing his employer to pay more than his job is worth. 1
thesometimesaint Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 If a low wage worker has nowhere else to go, how does it help to give his employer an incentive to eliminate his job? For example, by forcing his employer to pay more than his job is worth. Because eliminating the job doesn't make the employer richer. IE; Henry Ford was a jerk in many ways. But he was smart enough to pay his employees well enough so they could buy the cars they helped produce. Thus make Henry Ford very rich in the process.
Teancum Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 Common sense: if corporations are having to pay more out they will hold on tighter to what they have and cut back on growth (meaning fewer people are hired or more are laid off) and salary increases. The poor thus beome poorer because of less opportunity. Much more complicated than this. A major issue is some of our tax law actually favors the highly wealthy as well as hedge fund managers, banks, PE funds, etc. Activities that really create no real wealth of economic growth. Regulatory burdens are part of it as well. On a larger scale the world is shrinking. Emerging economies have people that want to pursue their material dreams as much as Americans do. Competition for scarce resources is larger than it ever has been. On the other hand there are good paying jobs out there but they require a high skill set and collage education which many do not pursue.
mnn727 Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 Bytheway, low-wage workers agree because they have nowhere else to go, it is not an option. I have already more than proven that wrong. There are always options, some people refuse to take them.
Teancum Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 ??? If someone agrees to work for a certain wage how is that theft? They can negotiate for a higher wage or find another job. Low paying jobs will use unskilled laborers. And we will always have them. IMO unskilled laborers should be paid a living wage. This helps them and it will stimulate the economy. It is pure bunk that the fabulously profitable McDonalds and Walmart could not afford to pay their employees a few more $$ per hour and still be profitable. And if they need to pass on the cost then do it. I would pay fifty cents more for a big mac or a few bicks more for a shirt at Walmart. Why is it the politics of conservative capitalism seems to be part of so many LDS people gospel these days. I suggest a serious read of the first 5 chapters of the Book of Mosiah. Over the past 12 years offshoring of much of what my company does has been in vogue. I have received constant calls from companies telling me how much $$ we can save if we offshore one of the key services we do for our clients. "Why you can put over $20k per year in each of our partners pockets by doing this" they would say. My response has always been "I would rather make $20k per less per year per partner and see people in my community working for us at a GOOD salary and putting it back into our economy as well as supporting their families well. Greed is an evil thing. Every time my company has made a decision based on a potential big $$ return and it has been greed driven it has been a mistake. 1
Jeanne Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 I just wanted to give my 02 cents for thought..I have worked for the government many years...and then government contractors. I received good pay compared to those outside the government or working for the State. All benefits..then I moved..got older..a widow..and life changed. I now work for Walmart in their bakery and I go in a 3 am in the morning..do markdowns..feed America..and then start on doughnuts. I have never..ever worked so hard and fast in my life. There are things that have to be done by a certain time that I could really use a twin. There are no "atta boys" for going the extra mile..and I make $9,80 an hour. My former guy friend works for contractors still with the Government..He drives around in a truck all day and if something goes wrong..he fixes it. That does take some knowledge but the man is making almost $30 an hours..you can talk work..hard work..minnimal work..benefits or none..but it will never be fair for everyone..if one is paid for what he knows and not what he does..the people that make the world go around will never know their worth.
thesometimesaint Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 I have already more than proven that wrong. There are always options, some people refuse to take them. The unremitting fact is that there is an oversupply of people willing to work for less. BTW one of the unintended consequences of the Black Death was to create a labor shortage that enabled a shop owner middle class to develop. Why should I pay you $32/hr. to do a job when I can pay 60 other people $0.50/ hr. to do the same thing. No American is going to live on the 50 cents an hour that Indians work for.
MormonFreeThinker Posted March 22, 2015 Author Posted March 22, 2015 (edited) I have already more than proven that wrong. There are always options, some people refuse to take them. You only proved that some can, but not everybody. Everyone has different circumstances and challenges. Imagine if all hard workers found a good job, you would never find good products and service anywhere. Even if true, let's assume all low wage workers have many opportunities, they wouldn't know it. .Low-wage workers deserve a life, but their job is not allowing them to have a life. Many rich people don't care about the poor. What about them? Do you think they can find a good job soon? Edited March 22, 2015 by MormonFreeThinker
gclayjr Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 I am recently retired and spent the last 40 years in manufacturing, particularly Automation. Here is a thought question; Where have most of the manufacturing jobs gone in the past 40 years?, China, Mexico, Guatemala? Answer... They just went... replaced by automation. In the early years of my career, I wrote up many justifications for corporations to buy computers, and the simplest, most common way to cost justify these investments was via job elimination. And that's what we did it. Not only do we need dramatically fewer workers, they don't need to be as skilled. The HMIs (Human Machine Interfaces) we develop are designed so that idiots can run sophisticated machines. so world wide we need fewer, less skilled workers to make stuff. Actually this happen a generation before in Agriculture. Those who think that McDonald's will shrug off raising minimum wages, don't understand Business. They will Automate. Ask yourself how many stores already have self service check out, or places where you can order your own custom sandwich via a touch screen terminal Maybe this link will give you some idea what is happening: http://money.cnn.com/2014/05/22/technology/innovation/fast-food-robot/index.html Regards, George Clay
Teancum Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 I am recently retired and spent the last 40 years in manufacturing, particularly Automation. Here is a thought question; Where have most of the manufacturing jobs gone in the past 40 years?, China, Mexico, Guatemala? Answer... They just went... replaced by automation. In the early years of my career, I wrote up many justifications for corporations to buy computers, and the simplest, most common way to cost justify these investments was via job elimination. And that's what we did it. Not only do we need dramatically fewer workers, they don't need to be as skilled. The HMIs (Human Machine Interfaces) we develop are designed so that idiots can run sophisticated machines. so world wide we need fewer, less skilled workers to make stuff. Actually this happen a generation before in Agriculture. Those who think that McDonald's will shrug off raising minimum wages, don't understand Business. They will Automate. Ask yourself how many stores already have self service check out, or places where you can order your own custom sandwich via a touch screen terminal Maybe this link will give you some idea what is happening: http://money.cnn.com/2014/05/22/technology/innovation/fast-food-robot/index.html Regards, George ClayAutomation will,happen with or without a rise in minimum wage, it has been happening and is happening.
MormonFreeThinker Posted March 22, 2015 Author Posted March 22, 2015 (edited) Automation will,happen with or without a rise in minimum wage, it has been happening and is happening. I know LOL and everybody keeps ignoring that the billionaires are getting richer (more billions). It is better for a person to have one job that pays fairly, than 3 jobs that pay almost nothing. Most low wage workers have two or three jobs, so gclayjr's argument is totally irrelevant. Edited March 22, 2015 by MormonFreeThinker
Sleeper Cell Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 Because eliminating the job doesn't make the employer richer. IE; Henry Ford was a jerk in many ways. But he was smart enough to pay his employees well enough so they could buy the cars they helped produce. Thus make Henry Ford very rich in the process. If the employer can buy something from an overseas company cheaper than he can make it here, it does. If the employer can replace some of his service employees with self service checkout machines, it does. If doing so allows him to charge less for a comparable product or service than his competitors, it does. Sometimes raising wages helps make the company richer, sometimes, it doesn’t. And if raising an employee’s wages always made an employer richer, why would we need minimum wage laws at all?
MormonFreeThinker Posted March 22, 2015 Author Posted March 22, 2015 (edited) Sometimes raising wages helps make the company richer, sometimes, it doesn’t. And if raising an employee’s wages always made an employer richer, why would we need minimum wage laws at all? because many are not convinced, and because the top 1% won't benefit more and the wealth gap won't be growing. You think low-wage workers do not deserve a life? Edited March 23, 2015 by MormonFreeThinker
Sleeper Cell Posted March 22, 2015 Posted March 22, 2015 Low paying jobs will use unskilled laborers. And we will always have them. IMO unskilled laborers should be paid a living wage. This helps them and it will stimulate the economy. It is pure bunk that the fabulously profitable McDonalds and Walmart could not afford to pay their employees a few more $$ per hour and still be profitable. And if they need to pass on the cost then do it. I would pay fifty cents more for a big mac or a few bicks more for a shirt at Walmart. Why is it the politics of conservative capitalism seems to be part of so many LDS people gospel these days. I suggest a serious read of the first 5 chapters of the Book of Mosiah. Over the past 12 years offshoring of much of what my company does has been in vogue. I have received constant calls from companies telling me how much $$ we can save if we offshore one of the key services we do for our clients. "Why you can put over $20k per year in each of our partners pockets by doing this" they would say. My response has always been "I would rather make $20k per less per year per partner and see people in my community working for us at a GOOD salary and putting it back into our economy as well as supporting their families well. Greed is an evil thing. Every time my company has made a decision based on a potential big $$ return and it has been greed driven it has been a mistake.Good for you. But it is one thing to voluntarily pay your employees more; quite another to force other employers to do so. I am glad you are doing so well. Many employers are not. Perhaps we ought to apply a “means test” to the minimum wage. Fabulously profitable companies pay $15.00 an hour, while those who are losing money are exempt. With a couple of brackets in between. A “progressive minimum wage” -- sort of like the progressive income tax.
gclayjr Posted March 23, 2015 Posted March 23, 2015 Brings Forth Plants "Automation will,happen with or without a rise in minimum wage, it has been happening and is happening.' Neither Math nor history supports your statement. As I mentioned Automation is most often paid for by labor cost resuction. As labor costs go up, Automation becomes more attractive. Regards, George Clay
MormonFreeThinker Posted March 23, 2015 Author Posted March 23, 2015 As I mentioned Automation is most often paid for by labor cost resuction. As labor costs go up, Automation becomes more attractive. Even if true, it is still not relevant because most low-wage workers (the have needs) have two or three jobs. It is better for a person to have one job that pays fairly, than three jobs that pay almost nothing. So it won't matter if the number of "low-skill" jobs go down.
MormonFreeThinker Posted March 23, 2015 Author Posted March 23, 2015 (edited) Isn't one of the Ten Commandments thou shalt not covet. Bytheway, there are a lot of war veterans working as low-paid associates at Walmart.It seems that we no longer have the American blessing, it was over 10 years ago. Edited March 23, 2015 by MormonFreeThinker
Deborah Posted March 23, 2015 Posted March 23, 2015 The problem with the feds coming in is they want to do a one size fits all. Each business is different, as is each community and each state. The people hurt most by minimum wage laws are small businesses and franchise owners. It is amazing to me the hostility toward the rich when it is the rich who provide the jobs to begin with. I am also astounded by the lack of understanding of simple economics in business models. 1
MormonFreeThinker Posted March 23, 2015 Author Posted March 23, 2015 I am also astounded by the lack of understanding of simple economics in business models. Jesus once said, “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” (Matt. 19:24.) Some rich do care, but not all of them. Many rich people do not care about the poor, especially the rich that do not pay their employees fairly.
Recommended Posts