The Blessed Virgin Mary In The Lds Church

[MiserereNobis]

In the thread "NYT's 'Growing Role for Women'" I began a discussion of the role of Mary in the LDS church (I'll put what I said there, which includes my feelings on the Blessed Virgin Mary and some youtube links to some great Catholic music, at the end of this post).  In order not to derail that thread entirely, I decided to start a new one.

 

One question I asked was how often is Mary depicted in art in LDS chapels and/or temples?  Calmoriah gave me a google image search link which I am still perusing (and will comment on in another post).

 

Tiki also supplied some Book of Mormon verses about Mary, for which I was grateful.  It is awesome to see that your sacred scripture holds Her in high regard, too.

 

Do you think a greater focus on Mary among Mormons could help women gain more visibility?  Is Mary a viable alternative to focusing on "Heavenly Mother?"  Would the fact that Catholicism and Orthodoxy place such high emphasis on Her be an obstacle for Mormons focusing more on Her?  What role does the Blessed Virgin Mary currently have in the LDS church?

 

Thanks!

 

 

Here is my post on the other thread:

 

What I am saying is that the mormon feminists would be fighting for heavenly mother to have more of a say in earthly affairs. For example, praying to heavenly mother...asking her to answer prayers etc. Or maybe to intercede with her husband.

 

Maybe we can have opening prayers to heavenly father or to heavenly mother in church. Closing prayers too. Why not? Anything goes when it comes to making people happy.

 

I wonder if LDS feminists who think this way might have a sympathetic draw towards the Blessed Virgin Mary.  From my point-of-view as a Catholic, a desire to pray to a "Heavenly Mother" would be a side-tracked desire, perhaps initially planted by the Holy Spirit, to ask the Blessed Virgin to intercede with Her Son.

 

It was the Blessed Virgin Mary, particularly as Our Lady of Guadalupe, who brought me into the Catholic Church.  She is a fount of mercy, compassion, and love, and She has a unique relationship to God that allows Her to intercede for us, pray for us, plead for us and on our behalf.  I love the Hail Holy Queen prayer (Salve, Regina in Latin).  It ends:  O clemens, o pia, o dulcis Virgo Maria.  O clement, o loving, o sweet Virgin Mary.  Here is that part of the prayer as put to music by Mozart:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYbTidHYSxo

 

I would to God that all could have a conscious understanding and experience of the depth of the Blessed Virgin Mary's love for us and Her indispensable role in our salvation.

 

Ave, Maria, gracia plena.

 

 

ETA:  Personally, with my traditional bent, I love the traditional Gregorian chant of the "Salve, Regina" prayer.  Here is a monastic choir chanting it.  It is only 2:00 long, so please take a listen (it even has the "holy echo" that the chant schola that I am in always tries to achieve).  The "O clemens" part, which is always so moving for me, begins at 1:20

 

 

Thank you, LDS friends, for indulging this Catholic's love of the Blessed Virgin Mary on your discussion board

Edited March 9, 2014 by MiserereNobis

[Calm]

Mary is used as an example of how we should act in mortality, but there isn't any discussion of her life pre or postmortality. We think of her as 'one of us' so to speak, a close to perfect example of motherhood as we should be mothers, but perhaps not emotionally connecting to her as 'our mother' as well.

I also suspect we see Eve as more of the global mother than Mary, so it may be Eve that would more easily be a stepping stone to Heavenly Mother(Mary is Christ's mother, Eve is 'mother of all living').

For example on how Mary is viewed:

https://www.lds.org/liahona/1991/12/mary-his-mother?lang=eng

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/released-mothers-day-bible-video-depicts-mary-mother-jesus?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+LDSNewsRoomTop15+%28RSS%3A+LDS+Newsroom%29&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher

And Eve:

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1987/10/lessons-from-eve?lang=eng

I don't know if this would have an effect, but Eve is usually imaged or talked about in connection with Adam, Mary is seen more as operating independently in her choices and behaviour. Joseph is more of an appendage to her we know so little about him.

Edited March 9, 2014 by calmoriah

[MiserereNobis]

I just watched a short video on lds.org that I found through calmoriah's google image search link.  I enjoyed it.  A few of my thoughts:

 

I noticed that for the most part Mary was depicted wearing blue.  This is the traditional Catholic/Christian color for Mary.  I assume this was done intentionally and it raised the question if it was common knowledge among Mormons that Mary's color is blue?

 

The depiction of the angel Gabriel was different than I would have expected but was in line with the LDS idea that angels are human spirits or resurrected bodies.

 

I liked that the scene with the three magi was obviously not at Jesus's birth.  This aligns with the Catholic feast of the Epiphany, which takes place 12 days (as a symbol of time elapsing, among other things) after Christmas -- hence the 12 days of Christmas.

 

I also liked that it was clearly shown that at the Marriage at Cana, where Jesus turned water into wine, it was the Blessed Virgin Mary who directed him to do so.  This miracle inaugurated His public ministry.  This shows that Her importance goes beyond just being the vessel of His birth, but also extends to His salvic mission.

 

The scene of Mary looking up at the cross was beautiful -- it has always touched me how She must have felt watching Her Son die, knowing who He really was and what He was doing, yet still feeling that pain in Her pierced heart ("Stabat Mater Dolorosa" complete with Gregorian chant notation!).

 

Finally, it was awesome that the film concluded with the verse, used in the Ave Maria prayer, "blessed art thou among women" because She most certainly is and, as I said in the other thread, She is a wonderful role model for women and for all of sanctity, obedience, mercy, and love.

Edited March 9, 2014 by MiserereNobis

[3DOP]

Miserere, hey. I am going on an Ignatian retreat after Mass tomorrow. I am sorry to miss what promises to be an interesting and fruitful discussion. You will understand lack of participation on my part for the next week. But before I go, since cal mentioned Eve, I wonder if LDS could profit from a meditation on Mary as "the Second Eve"? The parallels/contrasts are so striking as to be virtually undeniable and are reflected in the writings of an early Church Father that they like, St. Irenaeus.

 

I would enjoy hearing your story sometime. Guadalupe is wonderful and a continuing befuddlement to those who would try to explain away all the events, and that tilma associated with Bl. Juan Diego. I always feel that rather than a doctrine to be muted by Catholics who would seek to explain our faith, our Blessed Mother is truly an asset that answers to the deepest longings of the heart as well as the profoundest probing of the mind. People who understand cannot but be impressed at how every praise of Mary cannot but redound to the glory of the good God.

 

May our Lady bless you as you try to bring honor to God by explaining how "the Almighty hath done great things to me [her]" (from the Magnificat).

 

Pray for me while I am on retreat Miserere Nobis. Thanks.

 

Rory

Edited March 9, 2014 by 3DOP

[MiserereNobis]

Miserere, hey. I am going on an Ignatian retreat after Mass tomorrow. I am sorry to miss what promises to be an interesting and fruitful discussion. You will understand lack of participation on my part for the next week. But before I go, since cal mentioned Eve, I wonder if LDS could profit from a meditation on Mary as "the Second Eve"? The parallels/contrasts are so striking as to be virtually undeniable and are reflected in the writings of an early Church Father that they like, St. Irenaeus.

 

I would enjoy hearing your story sometime. Guadalupe is wonderful and a continuing befuddlement to those who would try to explain away all the events, and that tilma associated with Bl. Juan Diego. I always feel that rather than a doctrine to be muted by Catholics who would seek to explain our faith, our Blessed Mother is truly an asset that answers to the deepest longings of the heart as well as the profoundest probing of the mind. People who understand cannot but be impressed at how every praise of Mary cannot but redound to the glory of the good God.

 

May our Lady bless you as you try to bring honor to God by explaining how "the Almighty hath done great things to me [her]" (from the Magnificat).

 

Pray for me while I am on retreat Miserere Nobis. Thanks.

 

Rory

 

I will include you in my daily Rosary intentions.  May your retreat bring you grace, insights, and blessings!

 

I will address the teaching of Mary as the second Eve shortly.  I'm glad you thought of that and I hope it is beneficial for our LDS friends here.

 

I'm also glad that you mentioned the Magnificat (Luke 1:46-55).  It is a wonderful prayer and chant to end the day, yes?  I'm due for another retreat -- there are two monasteries near me (one very conservative -- they make great beer! the Monks' Ale; and one SSPX oriented -- they make great coffee! Abbey Roast.  I have spent time at both houses).  Mormon friends, Marian devotees, and lovers of western culture, listen to this:

 

 

God bless you, Rory.

 

ETA:  the notation and the chant do not match up -- someone made a mistake on the mode

Edited March 9, 2014 by MiserereNobis

[Buzzard]

There is one major, major distinction in LDS teachings on Mary and at least Catholic doctrine, and that is the doctrine of her perpetual virginity. I know from conversations with French Catholics on my mission there, this is a very cherished, even central doctrine to them. Whereas LDS read Matthew 13:54-56 and take it at face value, that Mary had subsequent children with Joseph-and several of them.

Considering the esteem with which we hold motherhood, this does not denigrate Mary, it just means she did not remain a physical virgin during the rest of her mortal life.

[Calm]

I assume this was done intentionally and it raised the question if it was common knowledge among Mormons that Mary's color is blue?

 

I would be shocked if it was done unconsciously.  I don't know about common knowledge, but it is known among many.

 

where Jesus turned water into wine, it was the Blessed Virgin Mary who directed him to do so.

 

This is generally an integral part of the story if told as a story and not just as a reference (such as "like when Jesus turned water into wine, we can see blah blah blah…")

Edited March 9, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Inspiration for Mary’s costume was taken directly from Carl Bloch’s painting Mary and the Angel (see “The Life of Christ: Painted by Carl Bloch (1834-90)” article in the Ensign, January 1991, 30–50). Her costume had the most vivid color: her robe was a cranberry red and her drape an evening blue. The fabrics for both pieces were soft and flowed well. Mary’s robe was hemmed long so that the robe could puddle slightly on the floor. The costume colors for the members of Mary’s family complimented and blended with hers….

 

Mary was from the tribe of Judah, so she may have used symbols common to that lineage such as a lion, a lamb, or a tree of life. As a descendant of David, she was also entitled to use the royal colors of blue and white.

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/english/pdf/callings/music/savior-of-the-world/SaviorOfTheWorld_00_ProductionNotes_CompleteProductionNotes_eng.pdf?lang=eng

[Storm Rider]

This is an interesting topic that I have contemplated when I hear some LDS share a desire to know more of Heavenly Mother. There may be a role for Mary in the lives of some LDS individuals that are looking for another way of worshiping God. 

 

This past Friday a good friend here invited me to attend a Stations of the Cross and Mass, in celebration of Lent - in Qatar Friday becomes our Sunday since Sunday is a work day. A few of my thoughts:

• I absolutely appreciate the concept of Lent and wish that the LDS Church would institute a similar period and focus
• The Stations of the Cross was a wonderful review of the the last days of Christ's ministry on earth from Jesus being condemned to death to the 14th station where Jesus was laid in the sepulcher. I would have enjoyed at least one more station - Mary finding it empty.
• The Mass was good and I thought the priest gave a good homily.  One of the jokes he told was very good; he asked the congregation to raise their hand if they brought a Bible to church with them.  Then he asked how many of those were Protestants. He said Catholics never bring their Bible and Protestants always do. 

Overall I enjoyed the day, but the preponderance of the focus was on Mary rather than on Jesus.  I can understand a concept where we seek the aid of Mary, but it is uncomfortable to me when she becomes the focus rather than God. 

 

My friend is a member of the Knights of Malta and wears a Brown Scapular.  There is much we can learn from one another. I don't think Mary is a sticking point except where balance is concerned. For me I have always understood there to be one intermediary and that is Jesus.

 

God bless,

[3DOP]

I will include you in my daily Rosary intentions.  May your retreat bring you grace, insights, and blessings!

 

I will address the teaching of Mary as the second Eve shortly.  I'm glad you thought of that and I hope it is beneficial for our LDS friends here.

 

I'm also glad that you mentioned the Magnificat (Luke 1:46-55).  It is a wonderful prayer and chant to end the day, yes?  I'm due for another retreat -- there are two monasteries near me (one very conservative -- they make great beer! the Monks' Ale; and one SSPX oriented -- they make great coffee! Abbey Roast.  I have spent time at both houses).  Mormon friends, Marian devotees, and lovers of western culture, listen to this:

 

 

God bless you, Rory.

 

ETA:  the notation and the chant do not match up -- someone made a mistake on the mode

Miserere...hey.

 

The brother of my son-in-law is a Benedictine monk at Our Lady of Guadalupe in Silver City! G'nite.

 

See you all in a week or so.

[why me]

For catholics, Mary plays an important role in their faith. The rosary is said: Hail Mary full of grace, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, amen. There is more to the rosary prayer which is repeated at least fifty times in the rosary. But this is the important part for lds. For catholics, Mary is in heaven praying for sinners and interceding for people who are in need of intercession. 

 

For the lds, Mary and Joseph are a united family, with their children. We need to remember that the lds would believe that Mary had other children besides Jesus. James, for example would be considered Jesus' brother. So, she was not exactly a virgin.

 

Also, the gospel writers did not give her life much attention. She was important for Jesus' birth and death but how she lived in between these two happenings was not very important for the gospel writers to record. Why wasn't her life important? Also It doesn't seem that Mary's life was any different from the lives of other women at that time. If it was, it would have been known among the neighbors and community. Most likely she blended in quite well. Joseph gets even less play. He would be the natural father of james but not of jesus. Was he at his son's death on the cross? It seems he wasn't. Why? Did he die before the event? We know very little of his life because the gospel writers did not view him as important. Why did the gospel writers ignore the lives of mary and joseph? For example, we know very little how jesus was raised. I am sure that mary was like any other mother: raising and loving her children. And joseph, working to support them all.

 

So, how should the lds depict mary? Most likely as a loving mother who raised her children as best as she could for the time that she was living in. Was she perfect as the catholics proclaim her? Most likely not. She was a human being like everyone else. Her perfection would have been noticed and written about by others who knew her. If she were perfect, maybe the gospel writers would have written more of her perfection. And what would be a perfect wife? She was married. To my knowledge and perhaps I am wrong about this, but it seems that she was not always happy with her son's mission.

 

Are Mary and Joseph in the celestial kingdom? Most likely and what would their lives be like in the celestial kingdom? So is the catholic depiction of mary correct. praying for sinners and for humanity, making intercessions for the needy and for those asking for help?

Edited March 9, 2014 by why me

[The Nehor]

There are interesting extra-canonical documents about Mary and her interactions with the Apostles after the death and resurrection. Nibley remarked that there was a very human uncomfortableness with her role felt by the Apostles. It is not that they disliked her or feared her or despised her but they were just not sure how to relate to her. They knew they were in charge but how do you preside over the Mother of the Son of God? Peter served in some ways as a kind of protector for her and backed her up when the other apostles got cagey.

[Storm Rider]

The entire gospel of Christ is based upon the principle of proxy - that another does for one that the one does not or cannot do for himself. I think there is room within the LDS faithful to have an understanding of the concept of the intercession of the saints, including Mary. Though we do not have any dogma, teaching, allusion to the Catholic form of intercession, we do believe that angels have a direct role in our lives. Given that we believe that angels are either pre-existent beings or post-mortal beings, they intercede with man on God's behalf.  I see no scriptural reason to think a saint (our own ancestors, the great men and women that have lived before us, all those who followed Christ from the beginning) could not intercede in a prayerful manner on our behalf.  Seeking their intercession does not seem to be proscriptive.

 

However, we as LDS teach that we are all able to go directly to the Father for his aid. Our Catholic brothers and sisters also teach this; they just happen to believe that the Saints, and in particular Mary, may have a closer relationship with God than we do and therefore their prayers may be more efficacious. 

 

The five decades of the Rosary are all focused solely on gaining Mary's aid,  "Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.  

 

Another prayer, is Hail Holy Queen.  See how Eve is mentioned, 

 

Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of mercy,
our life, our sweetness and our hope.
To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve:
to thee do we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
Turn then, most gracious Advocate,
thine eyes of mercy toward us,
and after this our exile,
show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary! Amen.

 

Eve is associated with the fall of man whereas Mary is tied directly to the saving grace of Jesus.  I would like to think that we can afford respect to our brothers and sisters that have different beliefs than ours. More importantly, we should be able to recognize the similarities between our traditions.  We build on the same foundations and both of us need a greater understanding and appreciation of the other. 

Edited March 9, 2014 by Storm Rider

[why me]

There are interesting extra-canonical documents about Mary and her interactions with the Apostles after the death and resurrection. Nibley remarked that there was a very human uncomfortableness with her role felt by the Apostles. It is not that they disliked her or feared her or despised her but they were just not sure how to relate to her. They knew they were in charge but how do you preside over the Mother of the Son of God? Peter served in some ways as a kind of protector for her and backed her up when the other apostles got cagey.

Of course this may be all conjecture. One thing is for sure is that she wasn't perfect. It is unfortunate that we do have more about her life in the NT. My guess is: they wished to ignore her except for the birth and death of christ because these two narratives are very faith promoting. And the gospels are extremely faith promoting. We also have nothing from James about his mother. Why did he chose to ignore her is a good question. Also, we have nothing of Mary in the early church.

[bluebell]

I would agree with Cal that LDS generally have a closer relationship with Eve than with Mary.  

 

But Mary is still treated with great respect and used as a wonderful example for people to follow.

[MiserereNobis]

Stormrider addressed many of these points correctly from the Catholic point-of-view, but I thought I'd toss in my thoughts, too.

 

For catholics, Mary plays an important role in their faith. The rosary is said: Hail Mary full of grace, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, amen. There is more to the rosary prayer which is repeated at least fifty times in the rosary. But this is the important part for lds. For catholics, Mary is in heaven praying for sinners and interceding for people who are in need of intercession.

 

You left out an important part in the Hail Mary prayer -- the praises lavished on Her by Gabriel and Elizabeth.  See Stormrider's post for the whole prayer.  Technically, the Rosary contains 150 Hail Marys, which corresponds to the 150 Psalms.  Sometimes the Rosary is called "Mary's Psalter."  The 150 prayers are often, 99% of the time, broken up into 3 groups of 50.

 

And yes, we believe that She is praying and interceding for us.  She is in heaven next to God -- it certainly can't hurt to have Her asking Him to help us, eh?  We ask our friends here on earth to intercede for us with God all the time when we ask them to pray for us.  I know LDS put people's names on prayer rolls in the temple.  Asking Mary and the Saints to intercede for us is exactly the same, except for with Mary and the Saints we are assured that they are in heaven and so their prayers to God are perhaps more efficacious, especially with Mary.  I saw a humorous bumper sticker once:  "I pray to your God's Mother"

 

Didn't Brigham Young say something about Joseph Smith doing more for salvation than anyone except Christ?  That is pretty much how Catholics view Mary.

 

For the lds, Mary and Joseph are a united family, with their children.

 

There is a very strong devotion to the Holy Family (Jesus, Mary, and Joseph) in the Catholic faith.  If you've ever seen +JMJ+ written anywhere Catholic related, that is a reference to the Holy Family.

 

We need to remember that the lds would believe that Mary had other children besides Jesus. James, for example would be considered Jesus' brother. So, she was not exactly a virgin.

 

Yes, and here we will have to differ.  Yet I would think that whether or not She was a virgin wouldn't matter to the role She could play in the LDS church.

 

Also, the gospel writers did not give her life much attention. She was important for Jesus' birth and death but how she lived in between these two happenings was not very important for the gospel writers to record. Why wasn't her life important?Also It doesn't seem that Mary's life was any different from the lives of other women at that time. If it was, it would have been known among the neighbors and community. Most likely she blended in quite well. Joseph gets even less play. He would be the natural father of james but not of jesus. Was he at his son's death on the cross? It seems he wasn't. Why? Did he die before the event? We know very little of his life because the gospel writers did not view him as important. Why did the gospel writers ignore the lives of mary and joseph? For example, we know very little how jesus was raised. I am sure that mary was like any other mother: raising and loving her children. And joseph, working to support them all.

 

Well, we believe a lot about Mary from tradition.  Both of our faiths are not "sola scriptura" so the fact that something is not mentioned in the NT doesn't mean it is not important, not at all!  Maybe an LDS parallel would be the fact that basically no details are mentioned in the NT about some very important things to Mormonism:  temples, eternal families, etc.  But I would assume from the Mormon point-of-view, their lack of mention doesn't mean that the gospel writers thought them not important.  Same with Mary.  And She does get quite a bit of press, so to speak, anyways.  It is illogical to conclude that Mary wasn't different from the other women of the time simply because we don't have more written about Her.  We have an angel of the Lord telling Her that she is full of grace and blessed among women.  I don't think that Gabriel was handing out that awesome compliment to all the women, so right away we know that She is different.  Also, She is the Mother of the Son of God!  That's got to count for something!  God entrusted Himself (this works for LDS, too, since you believe Jesus was Jehovah) to be carried in Her womb, to be raised by Her.  Talk about a distinction!  She most definitely was very different from the other women of the time

 

As to Joseph, he was obviously dead, or Jesus would not have entrusted Mary to John.

 

So, how should the lds depict mary? Most likely as a loving mother who raised her children as best as she could for the time that she was living in. Was she perfect as the catholics proclaim her? Most likely not. She was a human being like everyone else. Her perfection would have been noticed and written about by others who knew her. If she were perfect, maybe the gospel writers would have written more of her perfection.

 

See what I wrote above.

 

And what would be a perfect wife? She was married. To my knowledge and perhaps I am wrong about this, but it seems that she was not always happy with her son's mission.

 

Mary had an incredible love for Her son, so in that way She was saddened by His mission.  Her heart was pierced by His death, as prophesied by Simeon in Luke 2:35:  And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts, thoughts may be revealed.

 

A parallel could also be the fact that Jesus's humanity also did not want His mission -- "take this cup from me."  Mary, and Jesus, both did not want Him to suffer, but that doesn't mean that they didn't understand that He had to.

 

Are Mary and Joseph in the celestial kingdom? Most likely and what would their lives be like in the celestial kingdom? So is the catholic depiction of mary correct. praying for sinners and for humanity, making intercessions for the needy and for those asking for help?

 

I would certainly hope that from the LDS view the mother and step-father of Jesus would receive the highest glory

 

There is a bit of a Catholic joke that I've heard a few times.  Since, from the Catholic point-of-view, both Mary and Jesus were perfect, that meant that if anything went wrong in Jesus's home it must ultimately have been Joseph's fault.  Ha, poor guy

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

She (Mary) is the greatest among all women, and mothers. The Book of Mormon speaks more beautifully than any other recorded scripture. Nephi saw her in a vision recorded it the BoM, 600 years before she gave birth to our Savior and Salvation. Nephi says of her, (or a dictated to him by and angel of The Lord) "Behold this is the mother of the Son of God, after the manor of the flesh". Also she is mention again in Mosiah 3: 8 and Alma 7: 10. Even the Koran speaks well of her if memory serves.

[MiserereNobis]

Why did he chose to ignore her is a good question. Also, we have nothing of Mary in the early church.

 

From wikipedia, for what it's worth:

 

2nd to 5th centuries

 

Christian devotion to Mary goes back to the 2nd century and predates the emergence of a specific Marian liturgical system in the 5th century, following the First Council of Ephesus in 431. The Council itself was held at a church in Ephesus which had been dedicated to Mary about a hundred years before.^[41][42][43] In Egypt the veneration of Mary had started in the 3rd century and the term Theotokos was used by Origen, the Alexandrian Father of the Church.^[44]

The earliest known Marian prayer (the Sub tuum praesidium, or Beneath Thy Protection) is from the 3rd century (perhaps 270), and its text was rediscovered in 1917 on a papyrus in Egypt.^[45][46] Following the Edict of Milan in 313, by the 5th century artistic images of Mary began to appear in public and larger churches were being dedicated to Mary, e.g., S. Maria Maggiore in Rome.^[47][48][49]

[cdowis]

The entire gospel of Christ is based upon the principle of proxy - that another does for one that the one does not or cannot do for himself. I think there is room within the LDS faithful to have an understanding of the concept of the intercession of the saints, including Mary. 

 

 

Perhaps someone could help me with this story.

 

I remember when one of the apostles was near death, I was surprised when he indicated that his death would be an intercession to the members of the church.  I believe that it was Marvin J. Ashton.

 

[David T]

We also shouldn't have as big a beef with the idea of Mary's emaculate conception, because we believe all children are immaculately concieved - brought into the world without any stain of original perpetual guilt.I could see Mormons using the feast of Immaculate Conception to celebrate the doctrine of our Church that all children are born free from sin. While we wouldn't see Mary as unique in that regard, she could still be a great symbol of it.

Edited March 9, 2014 by David T

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

We also shouldn't have as big a beef with the idea of Mary's emaculate conception, because we believe all children are immaculately concieved - brought into the world without any stain of original perpetual guilt.I could see Mormons using the feast of Immaculate Conception to celebrate the doctrine of our Church that all children are born free from sin. While we wouldn't see Mary as unique in that regard, she could still be a great symbol of it.

This is a good point...I wonder way so many faiths still believe in original sin. One of my favorite scriptures in the OT, is Jeremiah 31: 29-30, where the day will come in Israel, the the (too paraphrase) "...the teeth of the children will no longer be set on edge for the sour grapes their fathers ate". Same appears somewhere in Ezekiel.

[mfbukowski]

In the thread "NYT's 'Growing Role for Women'" I began a discussion of the role of Mary in the LDS church (I'll put what I said there, which includes my feelings on the Blessed Virgin Mary and some youtube links to some great Catholic music, at the end of this post).  In order not to derail that thread entirely, I decided to start a new one.

 

One question I asked was how often is Mary depicted in art in LDS chapels and/or temples?  Calmoriah gave me a google image search link which I am still perusing (and will comment on in another post).

 

Tiki also supplied some Book of Mormon verses about Mary, for which I was grateful.  It is awesome to see that your sacred scripture holds Her in high regard, too.

 

Do you think a greater focus on Mary among Mormons could help women gain more visibility?  Is Mary a viable alternative to focusing on "Heavenly Mother?"  Would the fact that Catholicism and Orthodoxy place such high emphasis on Her be an obstacle for Mormons focusing more on Her?  What role does the Blessed Virgin Mary currently have in the LDS church?

 

Thanks!

 

 

Here is my post on the other thread:

Well I thought I would stop by and see what has been happening on the board and you have to tempt with with chant.

 

That's just not fair!!

 

I think we will place greater emphasis on Heavenly Mother in the future, and Mary will stay in about the same "place" as she has always been in our church.

 

For reasons I will not go into though, I really see us having a greater appreciation for Eve than ever and her position in our theology as "The Mother of All Living"

 

Essential to LDS theology is the concept that Eve knowingly partook of the fruit, with sorrow and yet a deep understanding of the plan of salvation, that it was necessary for her to do so.  We believe that had she not partaken of the fruit, our choice between good and evil, and therefore our ability to be tested here on earth and also therefore merit exaltation or some lesser kingdom.

 

So for us, the fall was essential to God's plan, and it was Eve who understood the true ramifications of partaking of the fruit, or so the story goes.

 

So I am sure we will all see her in a new light and honor her decision more than we have in the past.

 

That's my dos centavos.  But by this point in the thread, this has probably already been said.  I will peruse farther and shoot off my mouth as usual when I find something that pulls the trigger of my virtual vocal cords.

[mfbukowski]

My friend is a member of the Knights of Malta and wears a Brown Scapular. There is much we can learn from one another. I don't think Mary is a sticking point except where balance is concerned. For me I have always understood there to be one intermediary and that is Jesus.

That's about the way I feel as well- personally thinking about the atonement pretty much fills me up without "extra time" to contemplate anything else.

I was once a member of the Third Order of St. Francis, and wore a scapular. I suppose it would shock Catholics if I said that our garments serve a similar function, but perhaps not.

I was told that the pieces of cloth worn on the chest and back, with strings between them,and symbolic markings, were representations of a larger garment once worn. I am sure that will ring a bell for the LDS.

Edited March 9, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

From wikipedia, for what it's worth:

 

 

 

2nd to 5th centuries

 

Christian devotion to Mary goes back to the 2nd century and predates the emergence of a specific Marian liturgical system in the 5th century, following the First Council of Ephesus in 431.

Yeah but.....

We think the apostasy happened in the first century- and began even while the apostles were still around, according to the Epistles.

So even second century is too late. But who's counting anyway? We love Mary, we just do not place the emphasis on her you do.

Edited March 10, 2014 by mfbukowski

[katherine the great]

 

Perhaps someone could help me with this story.

 

I remember when one of the apostles was near death, I was surprised when he indicated that his death would be an intercession to the members of the church.  I believe that it was Marvin J. Ashton.

 

 

Huh?