The Blessed Virgin Mary In The Lds Church

[why me]

From wikipedia, for what it's worth:

Which was my case in point. The early church at the time of the apostles seemed to ignore her. Not to mention Paul in the NT. If she was important for the builiding of the faith she would have played more of a role in the early church at the time of Peter and James. But she seems to be in the background, not having much of a say in the affairs of the church. The question is why, if this is true.

[saemo]

This is a good point...I wonder way so many faiths still believe in original sin. One of my favorite scriptures in the OT, is Jeremiah 31: 29-30, where the day will come in Israel, the the (too paraphrase) "...the teeth of the children will no longer be set on edge for the sour grapes their fathers ate". Same appears somewhere in Ezekiel.

Paul lays it out very clearly, Romans 5:12-19, verses 18-19 in particular...

In conclusion, just as through one transgression

condemnation came upon all,

so, through one righteous act,

acquittal and life came to all.

For just as through the disobedience of the one man

the many were made sinners,

so, through the obedience of the one,

the many will be made righteous.

[why me]

 

The lds conception of mary would present her more in human terms. For example as she is shown in these catholic statues:

 

http://www.ewtnreligiouscatalogue.com/KITCHEN+MADONNA+STATUE/shop.axd/ProductDetails?keywords=kitchen&edp_no=11523

 

 

http://www.google.fi/imgres?imgurl=http://www.marianland.com/malha/61645.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.marianland.com/malha/61645.html&h=500&w=333&tbnid=PBNGIwL0K-dSIM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=60&zoom=1&usg=__h3BpFGKPmhzvkOJ2gJkQ5P5I0mM%3D&docid=tyCbQtLzwKw_PM&sa=X&ei=AaYdU-mrAsmAywPlzYIo&ved=0CD4Q9QEwBg

 

The whole idea of intercession of the saints through prayer is an interesting one. However, I would think that they would get rather tired of making such intercessions. And why would such an intercession be necessary if God forgives and forgets quite liberally, as is the logic in many churches.

Edited March 10, 2014 by why me

[why me]

Paul lays it out very clearly, Romans 5:12-19, verses 18-19 in particular...

In conclusion, just as through one transgression

condemnation came upon all,

so, through one righteous act,

acquittal and life came to all.

For just as through the disobedience of the one man

the many were made sinners,

so, through the obedience of the one,

the many will be made righteous.

You may interpreting this in the wrong way. Through adam's sin, we all became tempted by sin. But this does't mean that we are born sinners. But it does mean that we are far from perfect. Thus, with christ, the miracle of forgiveness became manifested. When I was a good catholic boy, it was known that when a baby died and this baby was not baptized, its fate was at stake. Maybe limbo or hell awaited this baby because it was born into sin. Many catholic parents were fearful of their baby dying before baptism.

Edited March 10, 2014 by why me

[why me]

 

And yes, we believe that She is praying and interceding for us.  She is in heaven next to God -- it certainly can't hurt to have Her asking Him to help us, eh?  We ask our friends here on earth to intercede for us with God all the time when we ask them to pray for us. I

I think that we would need to ask some critical minded questions: Why would it be necessary to have Mary intercede for us? Would Jesus get tired of having his mother interceding for individuals? And more importantly, to spend eternity not being able to enjoy the moment but continually listening to prayers of intercession, may get a little tiring. Wouldn't be best just to ask heavenly father directly? The lds prayer to the father and not to jesus per se. In this case, it would make more sense to pray to Heavenly Mother for intercession.

[Storm Rider]

 

 

The lds conception of mary would present her more in human terms. For example as she is shown in these catholic statues:

 

http://www.ewtnreligiouscatalogue.com/KITCHEN+MADONNA+STATUE/shop.axd/ProductDetails?keywords=kitchen&edp_no=11523

 

 

http://www.google.fi/imgres?imgurl=http://www.marianland.com/malha/61645.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.marianland.com/malha/61645.html&h=500&w=333&tbnid=PBNGIwL0K-dSIM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=60&zoom=1&usg=__h3BpFGKPmhzvkOJ2gJkQ5P5I0mM%3D&docid=tyCbQtLzwKw_PM&sa=X&ei=AaYdU-mrAsmAywPlzYIo&ved=0CD4Q9QEwBg

 

The whole idea of intercession of the saints through prayer is an interesting one. However, I would think that they would get rather tired of making such intercessions. And why would such an intercession be necessary if God forgives and forgets quite liberally, as is the logic in many churches.

 

 

Why, I suspect that those who have fully committed as disciples of Christ, withholding nothing, would never tire of doing good. Knowing my own sinful nature and inability to live perfectly I can greatly admire a concept that enlists those who have gone before to offer up prayers on my behalf incessantly. What a blessing that would be!

 

If one's own prayer is sufficient why would we ask for a ward's prayers or why do we value putting someone's name on the temple prayer rolls. We do this for the simple fact that we believe the prayers of the faithful are more efficacious.  If we did not believe this we would never add a name to a temple prayer roll or ask for another's prayers on our own behalf or on behalf of those who are sick or in need.

 

We do not have this teaching, but I think a LDS can understand it so much more easily than many Protestants because we believe so completely in the proxy nature of the gospel. It is fundamental to our own understanding of Jesus Christ and is also exemplified in our own temple work for the dead.

 

I can easily see my own parents and grandparents continuing to pray to God on behalf of their children. I cannot imagine that they forfeit all desires for our spiritual welfare.  We may not directly exercise this teaching, but I think we have many indirect supporting doctrines.  Regardless, I certainly do not think this is a significant problem from a doctrinal position.  

[Calm]

The whole idea of intercession of the saints through prayer is an interesting one. However, I would think that they would get rather tired of making such intercessions. And why would such an intercession be necessary if God forgives and forgets quite liberally, as is the logic in many churches.

Perfect beings don't get tired.

Is there any need to ask others to pray for you or to have a temple roll?

Edited: same idea as storm?...so a new one, do you believe the righteous dead get tired of doing missionary work?

Do you believe that the HG tired of providing spiritual witnesses. Many often ignored.?

Do you believe Christ gets tired of his name being used to speak to the Father?

Edited March 10, 2014 by calmoriah

[saemo]

 

 

You may interpreting this in the wrong way. Through adam's sin, we all became tempted by sin. But this does't mean that we are born sinners.

 

Explaining meaning away doesn't mean you have interpreted correctly. It doesn't say anything about temptation. Who believes anyone is condemned for being tempted?

 

 

 

But it does mean that we are far from perfect. Thus, with christ, the miracle of forgiveness became manifested. When I was a good catholic boy, it was known that when a baby died and this baby was not baptized, its fate was at stake. Maybe limbo or hell awaited this baby because it was born into sin. Many catholic parents were fearful of their baby dying before baptism.

 

Well, there was and is no reason to be fearful. If there were, Catholic parents would have a priest standing by to baptize an infant the moment he/she were born. Why do you think we never have? And what does this have to do with the Blessed Virgin Mary???

Edited March 10, 2014 by saemo

[David T]

I do think there are more substantial core ideas we share with our Catholic friends than we generally tend to realize, but they are often given different names and wrapped up in context that can obscure them.

 

I will say, the most spiritual Church experiences I have had in a Church service other than the Temple was attending a Catholic mass. A beautiful thing. Catholicism has a great treasure in its deposit of knowledge and tradition.

[aspire]

If I could figure out how to be LDS and Catholic at the same time I'd do in a heat beat.

[seriously honestly]

This is a good point...I wonder way so many faiths still believe in original sin. One of my favorite scriptures in the OT, is Jeremiah 31: 29-30, where the day will come in Israel, the the (too paraphrase) "...the teeth of the children will no longer be set on edge for the sour grapes their fathers ate". Same appears somewhere in Ezekiel.

Because it has effected all us. 

 

The Original Sin was the willing disobedience to God. It's through that actions that all manner of sin entered the world and we are all touched by the affects of sin, whether we are held accountable or not.

[Storm Rider]

Discipleship is not confined by membership in a particular church; it is keeping your eye single to the glory of God and seeking all truth wherever it is found. 

[why me]

Perfect beings don't get tired.

Is there any need to ask others to pray for you or to have a temple roll?

Edited: same idea as storm?...so a new one, do you believe the righteous dead get tired of doing missionary work?

Do you believe that the HG tired of providing spiritual witnesses. Many often ignored.?

Do you believe Christ gets tired of his name being used to speak to the Father?

I think that the question that I had was a simple one. Why is it necessary to have someone intercede for us? Why mary? Why saint gertude? Why padre pio? The list is endless. While others are enjoying eternity, there are choice saints whose constant work is to intercede for humans on earth. I do hope that one can rest in the afterlife. If not, I would rather be in the terrestial kingdom, which is the place that I am heading anyway.

 

The holy ghost as a member of the godhead is assigned to do his job. However, we mere humans upon death should be able to rest on our laurels at times and enjoy the moment of eternity with our spouse.

Edited March 10, 2014 by why me

[why me]

I will say, the most spiritual Church experiences I have had in a Church service other than the Temple was attending a Catholic mass. A beautiful thing. Catholicism has a great treasure in its deposit of knowledge and tradition.

This is true. It is also filled with beautiful symbolism. I think that one can find the presence of the holy spirit in the catholic church.

 

However, it seems at times that catholics are somewhat confused about what a spiritual life is. I have catholic friends who find it rather easy to have sex outside of marriage. The common refrain is. the flesh is weak and sin is unavoidable. They also claim that the catholic church is not a church of law. And there seems to be problem with people taking communion who may not be worthy. Back in my day, one could not take communion unless one went to confession. I still support this idea. Unfortunately I seem to be in the minority. There seems to be some confusion about what exactly worthiness is.

 

Maybe the lds church can copy this model of doing life. It certainly seems to make it all a bit easier. And if one does suffer because of sin, one can claim that one is taking on the suffering of christ. That being said, mormons seem to be very conscious of a spiritual life in how they live life. It is all rather admirable in its own way.

[juliann]

 Stendahl's "holy envy" is quite popular amongst the internet crowd.  Catholic veneration of Mary would certainly fall into that.  And I also agree that Eve is much more prominent in LDS thought than Mary.  When I think of Mary, I see her as a very passive figure because it is her sacrifice and duty that is emphasized in Mormonism, everything just happens to her outside of her control. I really enjoy visualizing her as an active, powerful figure, mothering others.  She sort of completes what Eve starts as the mother of all living. But one of the problems we have, I think, is that we tend to just look for just one female figure. There are lots of us! So I don't see any woman having to have prominence, except for Mother in Heaven.

 

Great thread!

[why me]

If I could figure out how to be LDS and Catholic at the same time I'd do in a heat beat.

If one omits doctrine, one can have both. There is nothing wrong in attending mass and enjoying it and still be a lds with a testimony. One can have the best of both worlds. However, catholic apologists would claim otherwise. One cannot be both. From my own experience, such doctrinaire people could make your life a little surreal if you post on their board.

[why me]

 Stendahl's "holy envy" is quite popular amongst the internet crowd.  Catholic veneration of Mary would certainly fall into that.  And I also agree that Eve is much more prominent in LDS thought than Mary.  When I think of Mary, I see her as a very passive figure because it is her sacrifice and duty that is emphasized in Mormonism, everything just happens to her outside of her control. I really enjoy visualizing her as an active, powerful figure, mothering others.  She sort of completes what Eve starts as the mother of all living. But one of the problems we have, I think, is that we tend to just look for just one female figure. There are lots of us! So I don't see any woman having to have prominence, except for Mother in Heaven.

 

Great thread!

And this is why I posted the two links of Mary as a mother of Jesus. Her main responsibility seemed to be to raise jesus to be the man that he came to be. I am sure that she nursed him as baby...bandage the scraps on his knees and gave wonderful advice to him as a teenager. But so did his father. I tend to see her as a loving mother who wept at her son's death.

 

My only problem is that she seems to have played no role in the early church at the time of peter and james. The gospel writers ignored much of her life and other books to the NT seem to ignore her too. Why?

Edited March 10, 2014 by why me

[why me]

Discipleship is not confined by membership in a particular church; it is keeping your eye single to the glory of God and seeking all truth wherever it is found. 

This is a good soundbite but what exactly does it mean? We are mere human beings who are influenced by external forces. Maybe the glory of god is found in attempting to live a good somewhat holy life, often coming up short and yet, still preserving our humanity in seeing god in the face of the other.

[MiserereNobis]

I think that the question that I had was a simple one. Why is it necessary to have someone intercede for us? Why mary? Why saint gertude? Why padre pio? The list is endless. While others are enjoying eternity, there are choice saints whose constant work is to intercede for humans on earth.

 

In Catholicism, Saints can intercede because they are in heaven.  When the Church pronounces a canonization, She is assuring the faithful that this person is in heaven and can therefore intercede.  She is also making a pronouncement that the life of that Saint is worthy of emulation.

 

Saints were engaged in heroic acts of Christianity during their lives -- they continue to do so after death.

 

I do hope that one can rest in the afterlife. If not, I would rather be in the terrestial kingdom, which is the place that I am heading anyway.

 

The holy ghost as a member of the godhead is assigned to do his job. However, we mere humans upon death should be able to rest on our laurels at times and enjoy the moment of eternity with our spouse.

 

From my understanding of LDS doctrine, being in the celestial kingdom will entail a lot of work, from missionary efforts to creating and organizing worlds and intelligences.  It seems to me that eternal families will not be resting on their laurels, but I may have it wrong, of course.  So I don't think the idea of a Saint interceding in heaven, working so to speak, is very far from an LDS concept of heaven.

 

 

 

[saemo]

In the book, "The God of Jesus Christ", then Cardinal Ratzinger teaches that the Trinity exists in a life of prayer. Jesus, lived a life of unceasing prayer.  Baptism is our entry into the life of the Holy Trinity. Prayer is our participation in that life. So, it is logical to believe that heaven is an unceasing existence of prayer, which is not work as we know work on earth, but something that IS. Analogous to breathing for our earthly life, which sounds like a lot of work if you think of all the breaths you take in a lifetime, but is not actual work.

 

LDS have a very earthly view of heaven, which is not shared by Catholics.

[MiserereNobis]

In the book, "The God of Jesus Christ", then Cardinal Ratzinger teaches that the Trinity exists in a life of prayer. Jesus, lived a life of unceasing prayer.  Baptism is our entry into the life of the Holy Trinity. Prayer is our participation in that life. So, it is logical to believe that heaven is an unceasing existence of prayer, which is not work as we know work on earth, but something that IS. Analogous to breathing for our earthly life, which sounds like a lot of work if you think of all the breaths you take in a lifetime, but is not actual work.

 

Nice analogy.

 

LDS have a very earthly view of heaven, which is not shared by Catholics.

 

While this is true, I would also add that most Catholics I know are not interested in contemplative prayer or mysticism or the like, and so the idea of the Beatific Vision, as the ultimate blessing of Heaven, does not appeal to them.  It seems they would want a more earthly view of heaven, too.

[saemo]

Nice analogy.

 

 

While this is true, I would also add that most Catholics I know are not interested in contemplative prayer or mysticism or the like, and so the idea of the Beatific Vision, as the ultimate blessing of Heaven, does not appeal to them.  It seems they would want a more earthly view of heaven, too.

I must be hanging around different Catholics. But then, I have only met two types of Catholics, faithful and lapsed The in between sort must be hiding out somewhere.

[Storm Rider]

This is a good soundbite but what exactly does it mean? We are mere human beings who are influenced by external forces. Maybe the glory of god is found in attempting to live a good somewhat holy life, often coming up short and yet, still preserving our humanity in seeing god in the face of the other.

 

It is not a soundbite so much as something I believe. We are mere sons and daughters of God and it is how we act during and how we react to this mortal existence that has eternal significance.  

 

I agree with you and find your last sentence a wonderful summary of other similar teachings. When we serve others we serve our God.  It is a joyous time when we can serve someone who appreciates the service; however, it is a godly characteristic to serve others when they spitefully abuse you.  Christianity would become a much greater force in the world if all churches would focus on service - feeding and clothing the poor, teaching the gospel to those interested, etc.  

 

During my mission I felt my utmost objective was to testify of Jesus Christ. Baptizing others had nothing to do with me; if they chose to be baptized it was because they felt the Spirit and responded to the witness they had gained. Too often missionaries were focused on the wrong thing - "getting" a baptism. Churches, all churches, need to lose their pride in membership and focus on a holy pride of serving others and recognizing truth wherever it is found.  

[why me]

In the book, "The God of Jesus Christ", then Cardinal Ratzinger teaches that the Trinity exists in a life of prayer. Jesus, lived a life of unceasing prayer.  Baptism is our entry into the life of the Holy Trinity. Prayer is our participation in that life. So, it is logical to believe that heaven is an unceasing existence of prayer, which is not work as we know work on earth, but something that IS. Analogous to breathing for our earthly life, which sounds like a lot of work if you think of all the breaths you take in a lifetime, but is not actual work.

I am not sure that Jesus lived a life of unceasing prayer. When he was a child I am sure that he was a normal  child with friends to play with his own age. He must have had a normal earthly upbringing. But when he was called to his mission, he certainly went to the people to teach and to lead. But was he praying unceasingly? Probably not. He also had twelve apostles that he needed to communicate with and lead. And to speak to. We certainly only have a fragment of what he did among the people. He also needed to eat and to drink. I would imagine that jesus as a teenager was well read, he learned the OT and knew the narratives well. He was a rabbi. But he also needed to have a normal life so that he could understand the people that he needed to teach.

 

I cannot see Mary constantly praying. But I can see her as a chosen spirit along with her husband, doing what is necessary to bring spirits, who have recently passed their earthly life, closer to god. However, it is certainly a nice thought to have various popular saints interceding on someone's behalf. But a direct prayer to god should also work quite well.

[why me]

LDS have a very earthly view of heaven, which is not shared by Catholics.

When I was a good catholic boy, attending children's mass every sunday and catechism after mass and going to confession once a month, my conception of heaven was quite simple: angels with wings and harp playing, I don't think that the nuns spoke much about what heaven was like. But we certainly had murals in churches that gave an artistic impression. It didn't seem like a place of work or unceasing prayer at all. Just a place where there would be peace and holy bliss.

 

And hell was just the opposite. The devil was a red monster with horns and a tail, waiting for the sinner to be burned in the fires of hell. Such a vision kept me in confession once a month. So it worked quite well. I don't think that this vision of hell is prevalent these days. Parents would not accept such teaching today. I have heard some catholics even deny the existence of hell.

Edited March 11, 2014 by why me