The Blessed Virgin Mary In The Lds Church

[MiserereNobis]

Well, actually this is not true. But some of the catholics here also post on their own board and usually what they are posting about mormonism on that board is not very flattering. However, they seem to be on their best  behavior here. And so, I tend to give them a hard time here. I know that they are trying to do their own missionary work on this board. Something that mormons cannot do on their site without getting mocked.

 

I assume you are referring to CAF, which is terribly moderated in my opinion.  This is the only board I post on, actually

 

I suppose someone could view what I do as missionary work, but my intent is not to proselytize.  My intent is to better understand the LDS church from a thoughtful position and to explain the beliefs of the Catholic Church to those who are interested in learning what we believe and why.

 

 

Be that as it may, I have a prayer card to saint gertrude on my writing desk with a portrait of my first love who died in 2007. She had saint gertrude in the hospital with her with a small crucifix that I gave her when she died. She was catholic. .

 

Not to mention, a statue of the virgin mary, and the child of prague in my living room which were my mother's.

 

I'm a little surprised, actually, because your questions about the Catholic idea of prayer and intercession made it appear as if you had little to no interaction with the Catholic understanding of those ideas.

 

My condolences for the loss of your first love.  In the spirit of this thread, I'll say an "Ave" for her soul.

Edited March 14, 2014 by MiserereNobis

[saemo]

Oh no! Not that!

I find deconstruction to be a good thing.

It helps one understand the universe and how we know what we know

Ah, I never pegged you as a nihilist. Explains a lot!

[pogi]

Perhaps it's always best not to tell people what they "really" believe and do. 

 

No doubt.  That's why I asked for clarification to help me understand your position after stating my observations with statements such as "it sounds like..."  I only said you "really" do pray to Mary, after verification from saemo and after reading that prayer (I was more confirming it to myself then telling you what you believe).  Was I wrong for saying that you really do pray to Mary?  I am so confused!

 

Surely you can understand my confusion as an outsider when I accurately stated the official position of the church by stating that "Catholics don't pray to the saints, but rather ask saints to pray for them".  I was then 'corrected' (I think that is the right word but can't be sure) that Catholics actually do pray to the saints.  This led me to believe that my references were wrong, but now you assure me that they are right.     

 

Let me see if I can figure this out.  Please feel free to make any corrections.  Catholics don't pray to saints, unless you understand the word prayer in a different way.   When Catholics pray (the different kind of pray) to Mary, she can indeed answer prayers and bestow faith etc., but only through the authority or power of God which she has? 

Edited March 14, 2014 by pogi

[why me]

I'm a little surprised, actually, because your questions about the Catholic idea of prayer and intercession made it appear as if you had little to no interaction with the Catholic understanding of those ideas.

 

 

Just the opposite. I have had too much interaction. I have seen catholics kneel in front of statues of saints in churches asking for intercession. And at times these intercessions were over somewhat trivial matters: lost keys as an example. My point is not the understanding of it but why it is necessary to ask for intercession. But of course I see nothing wrong with it because it can bring comfort to many people to do so.

[ChristKnight]

No doubt.  That's why I asked for clarification to help me understand your position after stating my observations with statements such as "it sounds like..."

 

Surely you can see my confusion as an outsider when I accurately stated the official position of the church by stating that "Catholics don't pray to the saints, but rather ask saints to pray for them".  I was then 'corrected' (I think that is the right word but can't be sure) that Catholics actually do pray to the saints.  This led me to believe that my references were wrong, but now you assure me that they are right.      

 

Let me see if I can figure this out.  Please feel free to make any corrections.  Catholics don't pray to saints, unless you understand the word prayer in a different way.   When Catholics pray (the different kind of pray) to Mary, she can indeed answer prayers and bestow faith etc., but only through the authority or power of God which she has? 

 

I don't believe you were corrected or told it was incorrect to say that Catholics ask saints to pray for them.  For Catholics, praying "to" the saints and asking the saints to pray for them mean the same thing.  The problem arises when many non-Catholics read into the phrase "pray to" things that the Catholic certainly would not believe.  Therefore, it is understandable why some Catholics would claim that they do not pray "to" the saints. 

 

One of your references says this, which is helpful to you in understanding what Catholics believe:

 

"We pray with saints, not to them. Have you ever asked anyone to pray for you when you were having a hard time? Why did you choose to ask that person?

 

You may have chosen someone you could trust, or someone who understood your problem, or someone who was close to God. Those are all reasons we ask saints to pray for us in times of trouble.

 

Since saints led holy lives and are close to God in heaven, we feel that their prayers are particularly effective. Often we ask particular saints to pray for us if we feel they have a particular interest in our problem. For example, many people ask Saint Monica to pray for them if they have trouble with unanswered prayers, because Monica prayed for twenty years for her son to be converted. Finally her prayers were answered in a way she never dreamed of -- her son, Augustine, became a canonized saint and a Doctor of the Church."

 

However suffice it to say that whatever phrase is used, the same concept is being taught.  To, through, with, pray for, whatever, they point to the same idea for Catholics, namely, that the saints in Heaven can hear us, and can intercede for us with God. 

 

Perhaps you will find this article helpful on the matter: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints

 

As well as this, from the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops:

 

How does our veneration of Mary and the saints relate to our worship of God?

The honor we give to God alone is properly called adoration, the highest honor we can give. The honor we give to Mary and the saints is called veneration. Proper veneration of the saints does not interfere with the worship due to God, but rather fosters it. "Our communion with those in heaven, provided that it is understood in the fuller light of faith according to its genuine nature, in no way weakens, but conversely, more thoroughly enriches the latreutic worship we give to God the Father, through Christ, in the Spirit." With this understanding, we see that proper veneration of Mary does not detract from worship of God. Even as the Mother of the Savior, Mary has a place that is in every way subordinate to and dependent upon that of her Son, who is the one mediator between God and humanity. The maternal role that Mary fulfills toward us as Mother of the Church "in no wise obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows His power."

 

The Second Vatican Council explained very clearly that Mary can be said to fulfill a mediating role only in a secondary and derivative manner:

 

For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to His creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.

 

What Mary does for the salvation of the human family does not come from her own power, but from a gift of divine grace that is bestowed on her through her Son. All the salvific influence that she bestows on us is produced "not from some inner necessity, but from the divine pleasure. It flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on His mediation, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it."38 Mary in no way replaces Christ. Rather, her role is to bring us to Christ, as is illustrated in Mary's admonition at the wedding feast of Cana, "Do whatever he tells you" (Jn 2:5).

 

[pogi]

Thanks ChristKnight for your response.  It has helped my to understand your position on how Mary can answer prayers through her son. 

 

I don't want to be difficult, and I think I understand what you are saying, but for the purpose of clearing up miscommunications in the future with non-Catholics, let me point out the confusion I and others are probably having with praying "to" saints.

 

I don't believe you were corrected or told it was incorrect to say that Catholics ask saints to pray for them. 

 

Right, but I was corrected for saying this - 

 

“The Catholics on this board can correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the position of the Catholic Church is that Catholics do not pray to saints…” (which is actually the official position of the Church)

 

saemo responded with this -

 

 

“We are in fact praying to the Saints”

 

In an attempt to clarify the matter, you said:

 

For Catholics, praying "to" the saints and asking the saints to pray for them mean the same thing.  

 

But then you try to help me understand this better by posting this reference:

 

"We pray with saints, not to them. 

 

Do you see the problem that outsiders might have with all of this?  Is it true that the official position of the Church is that Catholics do not pray to the saints, but rather ask them to pray for them, or is it not?  This is where my confusion is, because you assured me that me references are not wrong in stating this. 

[ChristKnight]

Thanks ChristKnight for your response.  It has helped my to understand your position on how Mary can answer prayers through her son. 

 

I don't want to be difficult, and I think I understand what you are saying, but for the purpose of clearing up miscommunications in the future with non-Catholics, let me point out the confusion I and others are probably having with praying "to" saints.

 

 

Right, but I was corrected for saying this - 

 

“The Catholics on this board can correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the position of the Catholic Church is that Catholics do not pray to saints…” (which is actually the official position of the Church)

 

saemo responded with this -

 

 

“We are in fact praying to the Saints”

 

In an attempt to clarify the matter, you said:

 

 

But then you try to help me understand this better by posting this reference:

 

 

Do you see the problem that outsiders might have with all of this?  Is it true that the official position of the Church is that Catholics do not pray to the saints, but rather ask them to pray for them, or is it not?  This is where my confusion is, because you assured me that me references are not wrong in stating this. 

 

No problem!

 

I think the full response from saemo reiterates what I have said:

 

"To pray, means to ask someone to do something. "Pray tell", can be addressed to anyone, not just God. We are in fact praying to the Saints, in the form of asking the Saints to do something for us, which is, to pray to God for/with us."

 

I don't believe I have anything more to add on the topic, as I think I've answered your question in previous posts.  As I mentioned, whether one says "pray to", "pray with", "ask to pray for", etc, the Catholic understands these phrases to be pointing to the same idea.  Some Catholics, such as those that wrote the article you referenced, may stay away from saying "pray to", because of what it can imply to non-Catholics (i.e. that Catholics are worshipping the saints, believe they are deities, have power in and of themselves to answer prayers, etc), especially when today, it isn't common to separate "pray" from "worship" (see what saemo said about what the word "pray" can mean, according to the dictionary).  This is why your references are not incorrect in their statement, when properly understood in the Catholic context.  For non-Catholic purposes, it is generally best to say that Catholics can pray "with" saints or "through" them, so as to avoid the wrong idea.  Again, this apologetic article is very helpful in understanding this belief. 

 

As for the official Catholic position, well, I don't think the Catholic Church gets caught up in "pray to"/"pray through"/"pray with"/etc.  Again, I don't think it matters what phrase one uses (since, as we have seen, there are valid reasons for why one phrase may be used instead of another, depending on context), as long as one understands the concept that is being taught.  The official Catholic position on the relationship between the Heavenly saints and the earthly saints can be read in two of my previous posts:

 

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/63025-the-blessed-virgin-mary-in-the-lds-church/?p=1209355734

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/63025-the-blessed-virgin-mary-in-the-lds-church/?p=1209355906

 

Hope that helps.

[mfbukowski]

Ah, I never pegged you as a nihilist. Explains a lot!

Lol.

 

You really are hilarious.  You have no conception of who I am or am not and never will

 

 

And that is a violation of board rules

[Calm]

you must be intent on seeing me as disagreeable....

you are dissembling the teachings of both churches.

Full Definition of DISSEMBLE

transitive verb

1

:  to hide under a false appearance

2

:  to put on the appearance of :  simulate

intransitive verb

:  to put on a false appearance :  conceal facts, intentions, or feelings under some pretense....

Synonyms

act, affect, assume, bluff, counterfeit, feign, fake, pass (for), pretend, profess, put on, sham, simulate

Related Words

dissimulate, impersonate, let on, masquerade, play, playact, pose; forge, imitate; camouflage, conceal, disguise, mask; feint; malinger

more

----

Nope, no sign of disagreeableness here...

[saemo]

Lol.

 

You really are hilarious.  You have no conception of who I am or am not and never will

 

 

And that is a violation of board rules

You take me too seriously. I won't bother you again.

[Yirgacheffe]

Just the opposite. I have had too much interaction. I have seen catholics kneel in front of statues of saints in churches asking for intercession. And at times these intercessions were over somewhat trivial matters: lost keys as an example. My point is not the understanding of it but why it is necessary to ask for intercession. But of course I see nothing wrong with it because it can bring comfort to many people to do so.

I agree, I've never seen the point in asking someone to pray for you but if you're going to say it's okay to ask your family, friends and fellow church members to pray for you then it makes just as much sense to ask people in heaven to pray for you.  In someways asking people in heaven to pray for you makes more sense, they have more time for it and one could assume they have a better idea of just what it is you need to join them there.

[saemo]

Full Definition of DISSEMBLE

transitive verb

1

:  to hide under a false appearance

2

:  to put on the appearance of :  simulate

intransitive verb

:  to put on a false appearance :  conceal facts, intentions, or feelings under some pretense....

Synonyms

act, affect, assume, bluff, counterfeit, feign, fake, pass (for), pretend, profess, put on, sham, simulate

Related Words

dissimulate, impersonate, let on, masquerade, play, playact, pose; forge, imitate; camouflage, conceal, disguise, mask; feint; malinger

more

----

Nope, no sign of disagreeableness here...

Yes, I do disagree, and yes, I see the attempt to level out differences as a deception. You call it disagreeable, I call it being honest.

[Calm]

Yes, I do disagree, and yes, I see the attempt to level out differences as a deception. You call it disagreeable, I call it being honest.

The idea that mfb is attempting to "level out differences" is nonsense since he is constantly promoting differences. Honesty IMO requires taking comments in the greater context, not isolating them out to create false impressions.

I have not seen accusations of dishonesty by you against Miserere Nobis or 3DOP when they acknowledge similarities between faiths. Why is mfb so favoured by your disagreeableness?

[why me]

The idea that mfb is attempting to "level out differences" is nonsense since he is constantly promoting differences. Honesty IMO requires taking comments in the greater context, not isolating them out to create false impressions.

I have not seen accusations of dishonesty by you against Miserere Nobis or 3DOP when they acknowledge similarities between faiths. Why is mfb so favoured by your disagreeableness?

I think that saemo forgot which board she was on.

[why me]

I agree, I've never seen the point in asking someone to pray for you but if you're going to say it's okay to ask your family, friends and fellow church members to pray for you then it makes just as much sense to ask people in heaven to pray for you.  In someways asking people in heaven to pray for you makes more sense, they have more time for it and one could assume they have a better idea of just what it is you need to join them there.

It would be okay to pray for to one's mom and earthly dad who have passed on? I think that the lord's prayer was taught for a purpose. I do think that Mary must receive millions of prayers a week. Quite a lot.

[Yirgacheffe]

It would be okay to pray for to one's mom and earthly dad who have passed on? I think that the lord's prayer was taught for a purpose. I do think that Mary must receive millions of prayers a week. Quite a lot.

If you would ask your mom or dad to pray for you while they're alive and you think people are alive in heaven then I don't see what's wrong with asking them to pray for you from heaven.  I just don't see why you would ask anybody, alive or dead, to pray for you.

[MiserereNobis]

It would be okay to pray for to one's mom and earthly dad who have passed on?

 

Yes.  Think of this:  the canonization process for a Saint requires that there is a verified miracle attributed to asking him/her for intercession.  This de facto means that people are asking deceased persons for help before they are declared a Saint.

 

I think that the lord's prayer was taught for a purpose.

 

No Catholic would disagree with that statement.

 

I do think that Mary must receive millions of prayers a week. Quite a lot.

 

It's a good thing that heaven is eternal and timeless and that Mary is the epitome of kindness and compassion, like a loving mother

[3DOP]

It would be okay to pray for to one's mom and earthly dad who have passed on? I think that the lord's prayer was taught for a purpose. I do think that Mary must receive millions of prayers a week.

 

 

 

Yup. A lot of prayers, but I have never heard of any complaints of heaven being overworked because the earthly saints are just keeping them weary with their prayers. It seems if anything the other way around. We tend to ignore heaven.

 

We don't know how it works. It would be a mistake whatever your religion to visualize a sort of earth to heaven postal or telephone service. You agree surely? I understand the difficulty in trying to imagine how it is done. But to demand to know how millions of prayers are heard before we try praying would seem to be a way of discouraging prayer and we certainly don't need that. You ask for a grace and it comes. You make it through the day without falling into this or that fault. Who cares how heaven can hear my clamorings amidst so many others? The grace came. Thank you dear Saviour. Such "problems", while understandable if you think about them, just aren't on the radar, and I think it is understandable why people who pray don't worry about it.

 

When you know you are on the operating table after a terrible accident and the doctor says he'll fix you up, do you ask how, or say "do it"? We are similarly ignorant and helpless and the prayer to which we are enjoined implies that we can be heard by saints and angels and God without any kind of technology. If we think they can hear the silent cries and meditations of our hearts, wouldn't it follow that they can somehow manage their resources so as to process everything according to revealed protocols? 

[saemo]

The idea that mfb is attempting to "level out differences" is nonsense since he is constantly promoting differences. Honesty IMO requires taking comments in the greater context, not isolating them out to create false impressions.

I have not seen accusations of dishonesty by you against Miserere Nobis or 3DOP when they acknowledge similarities between faiths. Why is mfb so favoured by your disagreeableness?

I never denied the similarities. Neither do I deny the differences. I don't see that any practicing Catholic here has done either. What I see, is that some former Catholics tend towards making Mormonism look like Catholicism and visa versa. The purpose being of course, to remove Christ from His Church, just as they have removed themselves.

Keep it real, no?

Edited March 16, 2014 by saemo

[Calm]

What I see, is that some former Catholics tend towards making Mormonism look like Catholicism and visa versa

 

And what I see is that a current Catholic is wanting to make a former Catholic look like he is attempting to make Mormonism look like Catholicism and visa versa when it isn't so for the purpose of I don't know, but it looks disagreeable.

 

"Keep it real"?  That is exactly what I am trying to do.

 

Just wave "consubstantiality" in front of mfb and then try and convince anyone that he is trying to make Mormonism look like Catholicism and visa versa.

Edited March 16, 2014 by calmoriah

[MiserereNobis]

Yup. A lot of prayers, but I have never heard of any complaints of heaven being overworked because the earthly saints are just keeping them weary with their prayers. It seems if anything the other way around. We tend to ignore heaven.

 

We don't know how it works. It would be a mistake whatever your religion to visualize a sort of earth to heaven postal or telephone service. You agree surely? I understand the difficulty in trying to imagine how it is done. But to demand to know how millions of prayers are heard before we try praying would seem to be a way of discouraging prayer and we certainly don't need that. You ask for a grace and it comes. You make it through the day without falling into this or that fault. Who cares how heaven can hear my clamorings amidst so many others? The grace came. Thank you dear Saviour. Such "problems", while understandable if you think about them, just aren't on the radar, and I think it is understandable why people who pray don't worry about it.

 

When you know you are on the operating table after a terrible accident and the doctor says he'll fix you up, do you ask how, or say "do it"? We are similarly ignorant and helpless and the prayer to which we are enjoined implies that we can be heard by saints and angels and God without any kind of technology. If we think they can hear the silent cries and meditations of our hearts, wouldn't it follow that they can somehow manage their resources so as to process everything according to revealed protocols? 

 

Welcome back, Rory!  I hope your retreat was efficacious.  You were included in my daily Rosary intentions and I have faith that our Blessed Mother smiled upon you

 

I remember during one stay at Our Lady of Guadalupe monastery, the Superior, Father Cyprian, told me that for the monks, praying for intercession for others requires a bit of faith, because often the monks never find out what happens in the situation they are praying for.  They have a bulletin board where they post letters people have sent asking for prayers, and so the monks will pray for them, but it is very rare that they get a letter back telling the monks of the fruit of the prayer.  So they pray, and hope, and have faith.

 

On the way to work at the beginning of the week I was listening to our local PBS radio station and they did a short spot on the monastery's coffee and how a local coffee shop/roaster taught the monks how to roast.  They had some clips of chanting and interviews with the guest master, Brother Bernard.  I really like him -- have you been to the monastery and met him?  Anyways, I was just reminded how you have a family member there.  It's a small world sometimes.

 

Welcome back!

[MiserereNobis]

Just wave "consubstantiality" in front of mfb and then try and convince anyone that he is trying to make Mormonism look like Catholicism and visa versa.

 

Oh dear Lord, let's not do that...

[Calm]

They have a bulletin board where they post letters people have sent asking for prayers, and so the monks will pray for them, but it is very rare that they get a letter back telling the monks of the fruit of the prayer.  

 

Like the one leper out of ten….

[Calm]

Oh dear Lord, let's not do that...

Exactly….

[3DOP]

Welcome back, Rory!  I hope your retreat was efficacious.  You were included in my daily Rosary intentions and I have faith that our Blessed Mother smiled upon you

 

I remember during one stay at Our Lady of Guadalupe monastery, the Superior, Father Cyprian, told me that for the monks, praying for intercession for others requires a bit of faith, because often the monks never find out what happens in the situation they are praying for.  They have a bulletin board where they post letters people have sent asking for prayers, and so the monks will pray for them, but it is very rare that they get a letter back telling the monks of the fruit of the prayer.  So they pray, and hope, and have faith.

 

On the way to work at the beginning of the week I was listening to our local PBS radio station and they did a short spot on the monastery's coffee and how a local coffee shop/roaster taught the monks how to roast.  They had some clips of chanting and interviews with the guest master, Brother Bernard.  I really like him -- have you been to the monastery and met him?  Anyways, I was just reminded how you have a family member there.  It's a small world sometimes.

 

Welcome back!

 

 I haven't met Fr. Cyprian yet. It doesn't mean much...but I have met Fr. Andrew. I saved his holy card in my missal.  He is from South Africa. Newly ordained, 2012 or 13. I picked him up at the airport once when he came to our chapel. He knows the boy...meaning "my boy" (see avatar). Yeah... the world of souls striving for Catholic Tradition is small. Its a joy to bump into each other here and there. Good thread...not much else to add Miserere. Everlasting thanks for your prayers....

 

Rory