The Blessed Virgin Mary In The Lds Church

[3DOP]

There were a few remarks about the Rosary.

 

I think any Catholic who is acquainted with the teaching of the Church about the way to pray the Rosary will readily concede that if prayed contrarily to the way its most ardent apostles recommend, it can be a mere multiplication of words, where God is approached with much speaking of the lips, but the heart remains far away. I am confident that we can reassure our non-Catholic friends that we would be abhorred if they should think that while reciting fifty Hail Marys, our thoughts could be focused on fifty Hail Marys. We are always taught that the discursive part of the prayer is distant in importance to the meditations and resolutions drawn therefrom regarding the Mystery that has been announced.

 

We probably have eight or ten booklets in the house to help us to be sure that we are not day dreaming but thinking about the event in the Gospel (Mystery) that is supposed to be our subject of contemplation. Prayer isn't easy. Harder than ever in a hurry scurry era when computers and Iphones give stimulating images to prompt our thoughts in directions that aren't often spiritually beneficial. But we are assured that God is pleased with our efforts as well as our disappointment if we find that after 50 Hail Marys, we have been more or less distracted from what we were supposed to ponder. On the other hand, once in a while, you hit a home run and see what it is like to really pray in the spirit with which the Rosary is intended. You don't want to get too excited and imagine you're all of a sudden St. Teresa of Avila. But God grants such consolations and then lets you flounder so you won't get the "big head". So we need to realize that He did it, and not ourselves. Prayer requires God's help more than anything else.

 

We sometimes need to be reminded that the faculties of the soul are similar in important ways to those of the body. Both need exercise, nourishment, and rest. If we would be a spiritual athlete, we need to practise, practise, practise. Did Michael Jordan become the basketball legend he is without hours and hours in the gym practising? Likewise with prayer. We have "spiritual muscles" that need to be worked out with the same kinds of discipline that athletes of the body use. You can't expect to go make seven three pointers in a row if you've never done it before. You start off with making your "lay-ins". So with the spiritual life, and so with the Most Holy Rosary. Beginners will do it poorly, but no problem. Is it important? Keep trying and you'll get better at it. Attempting to progress is what pleases the good God.

 

When a Catholic says he or she will pray for you, most likely, the intention will be formed and for healing, or a job, or for patience in suffering, a Hail Mary, or Our Father will be recited. Did you notice how Miserere Nobis prayed for me while I was on retreat? I was included in his Rosary "intentions". We do not think it is necessary to explain with exactitude to God what is needed regarding each intention. I was sure Miserere would be happy to pray for me without bothering to make up a long sentence about "Rory, who is going on retreat and please give him graces." I would much rather be included in a Rosary intention than some made up, spontaneous, on the spot prayer. Those might be articulate but usually not. "Lord teach us to pray", said the disciples. Jesus answered, "When ye pray, say..." and gave us a discursive prayer that has been recited for 2,000 years. But either way, God knows the need, and a Hail Mary or Our Father for the intention might frequently be preferable to some kind of hamhanded attempt to persuade God according to our own rhetorical resources.

 

Anyway, I want to tell our non-Catholic friends that the concerns about making a show of many words is noted and agreed upon. The words keep the time and remind us we are doing a spiritual exercise, but it is essential to any efficacious prayer that our desires and efforts are that our thoughts soar heavenward as we say any words. Being grieved at a poorly said Rosary though, is not a reason for discouragement. God knows how ill-disposed we are to spiritual exercises. Our desires to please Him will always be accepted, and that is why every Rosary, if the intention to please Him and meditate well is present, is precious in Heaven. 

 

3DOP 

Edited March 18, 2014 by 3DOP

[Storm Rider]

Rory, the principle you discuss on prayer applies to all those who do pray.  Any prayer can be turned into a mindless recitation that serves little purpose. We may not have set, exact wording for prayers, but you will notice how many individuals have a prayer that consists of the same phraseology.  This is found most often on prayers prior to eating; or family prayers, classroom prayers at Sunday school and other church meetings.  

 

I think there is something to be learned about set prayers that are helpful in the life of a disciple. i would go so far as to say that even the Catholic Church the value and importance of prayers of the heart.  Set prayers are often taught and understood to be stepping stones to those prayers that are sublime communion of the soul with God.  We teach that same principle. We are all striving to become that caliber of disciple that consistently becomes closer to God.  

[halconero]

I don't really have much to add to the thread, but I just wanted to say how much I appreciate the Catholic faithful, their devotion and their charitable efforts. They're in the same position we are with a lot of criticism, sometimes rocky past, but ardent devotion.

 

Fun, and completely unrelated fact: Joseph Smith was a good friend with a Catholic priest in the Nauvoo area. This friendship extended to him permitting the priest to hold services and perform baptisms in the not-yet-completed Nauvoo temple.

[mfbukowski]

Oh dear Lord, let's not do that...

What?

 

Did I hear something over there in the corner? 

[mfbukowski]

Rory, the principle you discuss on prayer applies to all those who do pray.  Any prayer can be turned into a mindless recitation that serves little purpose. We may not have set, exact wording for prayers, but you will notice how many individuals have a prayer that consists of the same phraseology.  This is found most often on prayers prior to eating; or family prayers, classroom prayers at Sunday school and other church meetings.  

 

I think there is something to be learned about set prayers that are helpful in the life of a disciple. i would go so far as to say that even the Catholic Church the value and importance of prayers of the heart.  Set prayers are often taught and understood to be stepping stones to those prayers that are sublime communion of the soul with God.  We teach that same principle. We are all striving to become that caliber of disciple that consistently becomes closer to God.  

I must say though that when one is down on one's knees truly pleading with the Lord, falling asleep is never a temptation or an option.

 

It now seems odd to me that one would have to be looking at something or thinking about something OTHER THAN the words to keep one awake while praying.

 

I cannot imagine what it would be like to have to look at something else to keep my mind occupied while talking to my wife, or anyone else I cared about, instead of thinking about what I was saying.

[Yirgacheffe]

I must say though that when one is down on one's knees truly pleading with the Lord, falling asleep is never a temptation or an option.

 

It now seems odd to me that one would have to be looking at something or thinking about something OTHER THAN the words to keep one awake while praying.

 

I cannot imagine what it would be like to have to look at something else to keep my mind occupied while talking to my wife, or anyone else I cared about, instead of thinking about what I was saying.

Poke, poke, always gotta poke.

[mfbukowski]

Poke, poke, always gotta poke.

Yep.

 

I actually take this stuff seriously.

 

Silly me, I actually think my eternity depends on getting it right, and helping others to see what is right.

Edited March 18, 2014 by mfbukowski

[3DOP]

I must say though that when one is down on one's knees truly pleading with the Lord, falling asleep is never a temptation or an option.

 

It now seems odd to me that one would have to be looking at something or thinking about something OTHER THAN the words to keep one awake while praying.

 

I cannot imagine what it would be like to have to look at something else to keep my mind occupied while talking to my wife, or anyone else I cared about, instead of thinking about what I was saying.

 

Do you see your wife "through a glass darkly"? Are you waiting for the day when you will see your wife "face to face"? I do not deny any of what you say here, except that the parallel with your wife seems to forget certain practical difficulties that the one must meet who would acquire the practise of talking to God regularly. I suggest it is easier to focus on our fellows here below because the senses tell us that we are in their presence and we can see if we have their attention. The presence of God in our souls is not so easily detected. It is there where we find Him always attentive. To be united to God in recollection is certainly supposed to be "conversational". But it is also an an exercise of the soul that requires forethought and deliberate use of faculties that aren't so necessary in daily conversation, where the object of our attention is sensibly present, in my opinion.  

Edited March 18, 2014 by 3DOP

[Yirgacheffe]

Yep.

 

I actually take this stuff seriously.

 

Silly me, I actually think my eternity depends on getting it right, and helping others to see what is right.

Storm Rider and 3DOP appear to be taking this stuff seriously and are managing to do it kindly without putting down the others practice.

[MiserereNobis]

There were a few remarks about the Rosary.

 

Excellent post!  Thank you.

 

Attempting to progress is what pleases the good God.

 

I think the LDS folk here would agree with this.  I like the metaphor of the spiritual life being a direction you are facing, not a location on a path.  Every time we confess our sins, do penance, work out our spiritual muscles, etc, we reorient ourselves towards God.  Sometimes we need to change course by just a little, sometimes by a lot!  But the point is to keep changing course.

 

But either way, God knows the need, and a Hail Mary or Our Father for the intention might frequently be preferable to some kind of hamhanded attempt to persuade God according to our own rhetorical resources.

 

This made me giggle -- the idea that we could try to "persuade" God through rhetoric!  He already knows what we need before we pray, but He wants us to be humble and ask and learn how to have a relationship with Him.

 

As 3DOP alluded, there are many criticisms of Catholic formal prayers (set prayers) being against the Gospel injunction to not use vain repetition.  The focus is "vain."  Repetitions are not by themselves vain -- think of how often prayers that people make up themselves are repetitious ("Dear God, thank you for the day, thank you for my family, thank you for this food, please bless this food to nourish our body, please help us have a good evening, amen.")  Such prayers can be vain if they are empty (the meaning of vain).  Likewise with formal prayers.  The key, as 3DOP pointed out, is to have your heart in the right place, and in the case of the Rosary this is the meditation on the mystery for that day.  Google "how to pray the Rosary" to get a description.

 

...it is essential to any efficacious prayer that our desires and efforts are that our thoughts soar heavenward as we say any words.

 

This reminded me of Claudius's lament in Shakespeare's Hamlet when he is trying to pray but he doesn't really mean it:

"My words fly up, my thoughts remain below;

Words without thoughts never to heaven go."

[MiserereNobis]

I must say though that when one is down on one's knees truly pleading with the Lord, falling asleep is never a temptation or an option.

 

It now seems odd to me that one would have to be looking at something or thinking about something OTHER THAN the words to keep one awake while praying.

 

I cannot imagine what it would be like to have to look at something else to keep my mind occupied while talking to my wife, or anyone else I cared about, instead of thinking about what I was saying.

 

The Catholic faith accepts that physical objects can help us connect to the spiritual.  So, while we are on our knees praying, we might be kneeling before a statue, or an image, to help focus our physical senses on the spiritual.  We are physical and spiritual beings and the two parts should work together.  The Catholic use of sacramentals comes from the same idea:  we have bread, wine, water, salt, ash, incense, etc. to recollect our physical senses and draw them towards God.  A traditional Mass in a traditional church is an excellent example of this:  there is something for all the senses.  Eyes:  stained glass, beautiful statues and images, architecture.  Ears:  organ, Gregorian chant, liturgy sung in Latin.  Nose:  incense (frankincense and myrrh).  Tongue:  bread.  Touch:  those hard pews so you don't fall asleep (ha!).  Anyways, I hope you get my point.  I think an LDS temple would be a similar experience.

 

3DOP makes a good point about how your analogy with your wife doesn't work.  She is there in front of you, so your physical senses have something to focus on.  And when she is not in front of you, you have your memories from your physical senses of her to rely upon.

 

I, for one, need all the help I can get when I pray or engage in any spiritual exercise.

[mfbukowski]

Do you see your wife "through a glass darkly"? Are you waiting for the day when you will see your wife "face to face"? I do not deny any of what you say here, except that the parallel with your wife seems to forget certain practical difficulties that the one must meet who would acquire the practise of talking to God regularly. I suggest it is easier to focus on our fellows here below because the senses tell us that we are in their presence and we can see if we have their attention. The presence of God in our souls is not so easily detected. It is there where we find Him always attentive. To be united to God in recollection is certainly supposed to be "conversational". But it is also an an exercise of the soul that requires forethought and deliberate use of faculties that aren't so necessary in daily conversation, where the object of our attention is sensibly present, in my opinion.  

I detect Him quite well.

[mfbukowski]

Storm Rider and 3DOP appear to be taking this stuff seriously and are managing to do it kindly without putting down the others practice.

Offense is in the eye of the beholder.

 

I was making a valid distinction between speaking to God and meditating while reciting a mantra.  I have done both and know the difference.

[mfbukowski]

The Catholic faith accepts that physical objects can help us connect to the spiritual.  So, while we are on our knees praying, we might be kneeling before a statue, or an image, to help focus our physical senses on the spiritual.  We are physical and spiritual beings and the two parts should work together.  The Catholic use of sacramentals comes from the same idea:  we have bread, wine, water, salt, ash, incense, etc. to recollect our physical senses and draw them towards God.  A traditional Mass in a traditional church is an excellent example of this:  there is something for all the senses.  Eyes:  stained glass, beautiful statues and images, architecture.  Ears:  organ, Gregorian chant, liturgy sung in Latin.  Nose:  incense (frankincense and myrrh).  Tongue:  bread.  Touch:  those hard pews so you don't fall asleep (ha!).  Anyways, I hope you get my point.  I think an LDS temple would be a similar experience.

 

3DOP makes a good point about how your analogy with your wife doesn't work.  She is there in front of you, so your physical senses have something to focus on.  And when she is not in front of you, you have your memories from your physical senses of her to rely upon.

 

I, for one, need all the help I can get when I pray or engage in any spiritual exercise.

I really did not have an intent to castigate Catholics in any way.

 

Certainly as you point out, we pray "vainly" as much as anyone.  And yes I understand well the need for a spiritual environment, and in the temple, our rites are always the same- the same words repeated again and again.  While working there, sometimes one will have an assignment to perform a particular ordinance in which one pronounces the same blessing on successive patrons again and again, as they continue their journey through the ordinances.  So for the worker, the process becomes quite similar to the rosary, reciting a three minute memorized prayer again and again for perhaps an hour.

 

And of course, yes, the mind wanders.

 

But that process is not "prayer".  Prayer is a heartfelt discussion (two way)  with God.  One asks questions.  One receives impressions back.  It is a process of vocal silent or not silent thought in which a real conversation happens with a real person.

 

For me, THAT is prayer.

 

And you know that I am "a hippie".    I have learned various forms of meditation in my life, with mantras and without mantras.  I prefer meditating without mantras, clearing one's mind and watching the thoughts proceed across the stage of the mind, and detaching oneself from one's thoughts.  That is the kind I prefer.

 

But one technique is with a mantra, which I find very similar to what I experienced as a Catholic saying the rosary.  Perhaps it is different for you and for every other Catholic- I would not have any way of knowing that.

 

But as I said, my point was to draw a distinction between the practice of prayer and the practice of meditation.  If there was anything offensive in that post, I apologize.  I will go back and read it and see if I see anything offensive.

 

I appreciate your willingness to give me the benefit of the doubt in these interactions; you always presume that I am coming from a position of good will, and that is the case.  Others appear not to be so generous.

[MiserereNobis]

I didn't take offense at anything said.  I appreciate your willingness to engage with us Catholics who invade your board

[mfbukowski]

 A traditional Mass in a traditional church is an excellent example of this:  there is something for all the senses.  Eyes:  stained glass, beautiful statues and images, architecture.  Ears:  organ, Gregorian chant, liturgy sung in Latin.  Nose:  incense (frankincense and myrrh).  Tongue:  bread.  Touch:  those hard pews so you don't fall asleep (ha!).  Anyways, I hope you get my point.  I think an LDS temple would be a similar experience.

I totally agree, and though I won't discuss it, this particular analogy has resonance with the temple that probably you are not aware of, or perhaps you are, and is why you said this.

 

If you look at the baptismal rites of our Orthodox brethren, each of the senses is actually blessed and anointed with oil.

[mfbukowski]

The Coptic Orthodox Church claims to have one of the oldest liturgies in Christendom.

 

This is their rite of baptism- I recommend it highly for LDS readers

 

http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/sacraments/1_baptism.htm

 

Edit:

 

OOPS I meant to link to the confirmation liturgy

 

http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/sacraments/2_confirmation.html

 

THE ANOINTMENTS

The priest places his right thumb on top of the opening of the Myron bottle, and turns it downwards to wet his finger with the Myron. He then anoints the baptized as follows :

The first four anointments (eight crosses) are on the senses

Firstly, the top of the head, the nostrils, the mouth, and the right ear

Then, the right eye, the left eye, an finally the left ear

Whilst anointing, the priest says, “In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.  The anointment of grace of the Holy Spirit, Amen.”

 

NOTES:

 

He anoints The Head to sanctify it. The head contains the brain, where thinking takes place. It is the brain which distinguishes humankind from other creatures. A good mind is of great use and benefit to oneself and to others also. King Solomon praises the mind saying, “When wisdom enters your heart and knowledge is pleasant to your soul, discretion will preserve you, understanding will keep you, to deliver from the way evil” (Proverbs 2: 10-12).

 

Also, the Lord Jesus praised the young man who answered wisely and said to him: “You are not far from the Kingdom of God”  (Mark 12:34). And St. Paul our teacher prays for us saying, “And the peace of God which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus” (Philippians 4:7).

 

The Nostrils contain the sense of smell, and it is an important sense, for if a person is not careful and alert, it is possible for impure thoughts to enter ones heart through this sense. Hence, the priest anoints it to protect it against all sin and lust.

 

The Mouth with the tongue is the most dangerous organ in a person...

 

“If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless”  (James 1:26).

 

“If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body" (James 3:2).

 

“The tongue is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison, it defiles the whole body and sets on fire the course of nature, and it is set on fire by hell” (James 3:8,6), if it is not controlled.

 

The Psalmist prays, “Set a guard O Lord, over my mouth. Keep watch over the door of my lips.  Do not incline my heart to any evil thing” (Psalm 141:3,4)

And the wise King Solomon said: “Whoever guards his mouth and tongue keeps his soul from troubles” (Proverbs 21:23), and, “Put away from you a deceitful mouth, and put perverse lips far from you” (Proverbs 4:24.  We ought to keep our tongue from sins such as swearing, insulting, lying, judging, and gossiping. Our words should always be graceful.

The Ears provide us with the important sense of hearing, which should also be controlled, and the anointing of the Myron is a strong weapon in control what we hear. We protect our ears from hearing such things as gossip, and other conversations which may poison our hearts with revenge and hatred. We also protect our ears from hearing certain songs which may poison our hearts with lustful thoughts.

 

The Eyes are the most important sense, through which enters more than 80% of information which may affect our hearts. If the information is holy, it sanctifies the heart, and vice versa. For this reason, we should control what we see so that we may keep ourselves pure. The tenth commandment says, “Do not covet”. The Psalmist prays, “Turn away my eyes from looking at worthless things” (Psalm 119:37), and, “Open my eyes, that I may see wondrous things from Your law”  (Psalm 119:17).

 

 

Edited March 18, 2014 by mfbukowski

[theplains]

The Catholic faith accepts that physical objects can help us connect to the spiritual.  So, while we are on our knees praying, we might be kneeling before a statue, or an image, to help focus our physical senses on the spiritual.  We are physical and spiritual beings and the two parts should work together.

 

Do you think statues of Jesus or Mary actually serve as stumbling blocks to those faiths that

really do worship statues that cannot hear, speak, or see?  They feel they are doing nothing

wrong because they interpret Catholics as doing the same?

 

I see the occasional video where a procession of people are carrying a statue of Mary some

where and unfortunately the thing topples over and smashes into bits. I say, 'oh well', its just

stone.  But I wonder how many in the procession view it as a tragedy and spiritual loss?

 

Personally, I feel that if we knew what Jesus looked like, everyone would probably have a

statue of him in our home and feel ok to talk to it or bow down to it, because in a spiritual

sense we would say to ourselves that it represents Jesus in an omnipresent way. Heck ...

churches would probably be competing with each other to see who can build the largest

statue ... like cities build ever taller towers to compete against each other 

 

Thanks,

Jim

Edited March 20, 2014 by theplains

[Storm Rider]

 

The Coptic Orthodox Church claims to have one of the oldest liturgies in Christendom.

 

This is their rite of baptism- I recommend it highly for LDS readers

 

http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/sacraments/1_baptism.htm

 

Edit:

 

OOPS I meant to link to the confirmation liturgy

 

http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/thecopticchurch/sacraments/2_confirmation.html

 

 

Thank you for sharing that link.  

[MiserereNobis]

Do you think statues of Jesus or Mary actually serve as stumbling blocks to those faiths that

really do worship statues that cannot hear, speak, or see?  They feel they are doing nothing

wrong because they interpret Catholics as doing the same?

 

Maybe, especially since other Christians think we are worshiping the statues, so I imagine pagans would think that even more so.  I guess I don't see it as a problem, because people are always going to misunderstand other people's beliefs (think about how misunderstood and misconstrued Mormonism often is).

 

 

I see the occasional video where a procession of people are carrying a statue of Mary some

where and unfortunately the thing topples over and smashes into bits. I say, 'oh well', its just

stone.  But I wonder how many in the procession view it as a tragedy and spiritual loss?

 

Personally, I feel that if we knew what Jesus looked like, everyone would probably have a

statue of him in our home and feel ok to talk to it or bow down to it, because in a spiritual

sense we would say to ourselves that it represents Jesus in an omnipresent way. Heck ...

churches would probably be competing with each other to see who can build the largest

statue ... like cities build ever taller towers to compete against each other 

 

The tallest statue of Jesus in the world is in Poland and is 108 feet tall

[Storm Rider]

The Catholic faith accepts that physical objects can help us connect to the spiritual.  So, while we are on our knees praying, we might be kneeling before a statue, or an image, to help focus our physical senses on the spiritual.  We are physical and spiritual beings and the two parts should work together.  The Catholic use of sacramentals comes from the same idea:  we have bread, wine, water, salt, ash, incense, etc. to recollect our physical senses and draw them towards God.  A traditional Mass in a traditional church is an excellent example of this:  there is something for all the senses.  Eyes:  stained glass, beautiful statues and images, architecture.  Ears:  organ, Gregorian chant, liturgy sung in Latin.  Nose:  incense (frankincense and myrrh).  Tongue:  bread.  Touch:  those hard pews so you don't fall asleep (ha!).  Anyways, I hope you get my point.  I think an LDS temple would be a similar experience.

 

3DOP makes a good point about how your analogy with your wife doesn't work.  She is there in front of you, so your physical senses have something to focus on.  And when she is not in front of you, you have your memories from your physical senses of her to rely upon.

 

I, for one, need all the help I can get when I pray or engage in any spiritual exercise.

 

A very learned man, a saint, from the Eastern Orthodox tradition talked about prayer in three senses:  mind, heart, and spirit.  In uniting all three we focus completely on God and become one.