The Blessed Virgin Mary In The Lds Church

[pogi]

The whole concept of intercession baffles me. 

 

How are you defining intercession?  I think that the scriptures and religious history is replete with evidence of intercessory beings and ministering angels.  

 

D&C 128:15 states "...they without us cannot be made perfect, neither can we without our dead be made perfect."  Through temple ordinances, not only are they intercessors for us, but we are also intercessors for them.  It works both ways. 

[Yirgacheffe]

The whole concept of intercession baffles me. First it's not like we are in some earth bound courtroom trying to arrive at the truth we know Christ knows the truth of all things. Second we know our forgiveness depends on our repentance for sins and our obedience to Christs commandments and our works in demonstrating that understanding and obedience. And third it's not like Christ is going to judge you different from me for the same sin because his mother asked him to as it contravenes all the doctrine he has laid out for us to follow.

Then why do people pray for family and friends, why do churches have lists of people to pray for, why do people pray for our troops, victims of disaster, the starving children in the world.  It seems to me religious life is over flowing with intercessory prayer.  Why do you think that intercessory prayer is requested for forgiveness of sins????

[why me]

Then why do people pray for family and friends, why do churches have lists of people to pray for, why do people pray for our troops, victims of disaster, the starving children in the world.  It seems to me religious life is over flowing with intercessory prayer.  Why do you think that intercessory prayer is requested for forgiveness of sins????

I see a difference here. I think that it is perfectly fine to pray to heavenly father on someone's behalf. But should I pray to saint joseph on behalf of a friend? Should it be saint joseph's job to listen to prayers that are directed at him so that he can intercede for them? I think that in the catholic faith there are popular saints and not so known saints. The more popular and known a saint is, the more prayers that will be directed at that saint. If I were in heaven and if I were a saint, I may hope to remain unknown by most on earth,, so that I can have some time for myself. Most prayers of intercession can be made directly to the father. He is our father while the saints are our spiritual brothers and sisters.

[why me]

The whole concept of intercession baffles me. First it's not like we are in some earth bound courtroom trying to arrive at the truth we know Christ knows the truth of all things. Second we know our forgiveness depends on our repentance for sins and our obedience to Christs commandments and our works in demonstrating that understanding and obedience. And third it's not like Christ is going to judge you different from me for the same sin because his mother asked him to as it contravenes all the doctrine he has laid out for us to follow.

Also, what kind of intercession would mary make? Would she get down on her knees in front of her son and ask him to interceded for some poor soul on earth? And if so, how often is she doing this? I would find it humiliating to do this over and over again? Maybe we should let mary rest and go directly to the father for whatever reason we have to go to him.

[Yirgacheffe]

I see a difference here. I think that it is perfectly fine to pray to heavenly father on someone's behalf. But should I pray to saint joseph on behalf of a friend? Should it be saint joseph's job to listen to prayers that are directed at him so that he can intercede for them? I think that in the catholic faith there are popular saints and not so known saints. The more popular and known a saint is, the more prayers that will be directed at that saint. If I were in heaven and if I were a saint, I may hope to remain unknown by most on earth,, so that I can have some time for myself. Most prayers of intercession can be made directly to the father. He is our father while the saints are our spiritual brothers and sisters.

I don't see any difference, either intercessory prayer is good and useful no matter how it's employed or it's pointless but I really disagree with "we do it right but those other guys do it wrong".

[Stone holm]

In the thread "NYT's 'Growing Role for Women'" I began a discussion of the role of Mary in the LDS church (I'll put what I said there, which includes my feelings on the Blessed Virgin Mary and some youtube links to some great Catholic music, at the end of this post).  In order not to derail that thread entirely, I decided to start a new one.

 

One question I asked was how often is Mary depicted in art in LDS chapels and/or temples?  Calmoriah gave me a google image search link which I am still perusing (and will comment on in another post).

 

Tiki also supplied some Book of Mormon verses about Mary, for which I was grateful.  It is awesome to see that your sacred scripture holds Her in high regard, too.

 

Do you think a greater focus on Mary among Mormons could help women gain more visibility?  Is Mary a viable alternative to focusing on "Heavenly Mother?"  Would the fact that Catholicism and Orthodoxy place such high emphasis on Her be an obstacle for Mormons focusing more on Her?  What role does the Blessed Virgin Mary currently have in the LDS church?

 

Thanks!

 

 

Here is my post on the other thread:

While Mormon teachings regarding Mary have some similarity, in that God may be married to her. I don't think we get as hung up on the virginity thing as the Catholics, and if there is ever a Mormon break through for women--my bets are more on Heavenly Mother or Mary Magdalene, or Martha and Mary. But, don't see a future for the cult of The Madonna in Mormonism.

[MiserereNobis]

 If I were in heaven and if I were a saint, I may hope to remain unknown by most on earth,, so that I can have some time for myself.

 

 

One of the reasons they are Saints is because they have complete love for their brothers and sisters and don't mind spending time helping them out, even if it is at the expense of their own "personal" time

[MiserereNobis]

Also, what kind of intercession would mary make? Would she get down on her knees in front of her son and ask him to interceded for some poor soul on earth? And if so, how often is she doing this? I would find it humiliating to do this over and over again? Maybe we should let mary rest and go directly to the father for whatever reason we have to go to him.

 

There is a difference between humble and humiliating.  Mary was humble -- that is what gives Her such great power.  Luke 1:38: "And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word."

 

In Christianity, sacrificing for others and humility are two of the greatest virtues.  Mary and the Saints have this virtue.

[jaxenro]

I didn't say "we" do it right and others wrong just the concept baffles me. Either we trust in our relationship with God or we don't.

In temple work, unless I understand wrong, we are acting in proxy for others that still have the right of refusal? That isn't intervention in the classical sense, we are not intervening but performing a service.

Why do we pray for others? Again I don't see we are intervening but asking God to help a loved one. When our prayer crosses their free will I personally would not consider it valid, like asking God to make someone obey the W of W would not be valid but asking God to strengthen a loved one that was trying to would be and would not be intervening

[saemo]

 Again I don't see we are intervening but asking God to help a loved one. 

Hi, yes, this is the same for Catholics. Intercession is not synonymous with intervening. I think of the Saints like aunts and uncles. They are family who I can turn to, and ask for them to pray with me and for me. Mary is a step above that idea. We call her Mother, but we're all talking family here. Catholicism is very communal. Individualism isn't a teaching of the Catholic Church.

 

Particularly with Mary, we seek to emulate her example in aligning our will to God's will. "Be it done unto me according to thy word."  We hold no belief that God forces anyone to do anything, or, that we can force someone to do something via prayer.

 

Hope that helps.

Edited March 13, 2014 by saemo

[saemo]

While Mormon teachings regarding Mary have some similarity, in that God may be married to her. 

I can't think of anything similar in Catholic teaching to, "God may be married to her". 

[pogi]

I can't think of anything similar in Catholic teaching to, "God may be married to her". 

y

I can't think of anything in Mormon teachings either.

[why me]

Why do we pray for others? Again I don't see we are intervening but asking God to help a loved one.

But catholics aren't just praying to god when they ask god to intervene. They also pray to various catholic saints for intervention. So, they may ask saint faustina for help. Or they can ask the opus dei saint, Josemaria for intervention.  This is a little different than going directly to god to help someone.

[why me]

Hi, yes, this is the same for Catholics. Intercession is not synonymous with intervening. I think of the Saints like aunts and uncles. They are family who I can turn to, and ask for them to pray with me and for me. Mary is a step above that idea. We call her Mother, but we're all talking family here. Catholicism is very communal. Individualism isn't a teaching of the Catholic Church.

 

I have never prayed to my uncles or aunts. I haven't prayed to my own earthly father and mother either. But I can wish them all well.

Edited March 13, 2014 by why me

[ChristKnight]

But catholics aren't just praying to god when they ask god to intervene. They also pray to various catholic saints for intervention. So, they may ask saint faustina for help. Or they can ask the opus dei saint, Josemaria for intervention.  This is a little different than going directly to god to help someone.

 

 

I have never prayed to my uncles or aunts. I haven't prayer to my own earthly father and mother either. But I can wish them all well.

 

I believe this has already been explained, and you're misconstruing the argument being made.  When Catholics pray "to" various saints, it is believed to be along the lines of asking my mother, my sister, my brother, my neighbor, etc to pray for me to God.  Catholics believe in a concept called the "communion of saints", where the Church is united, in Jesus Christ, on earth and in Heaven.  It is one Family.  It is believed that we can ask our earthly family members to pray for us, and we can ask our Heavenly family members to pray for us.  Both are intercessory prayers, similar how Latter-day Saints pray for others in the temple.  Yes, one can always go "directly to God", however we are also called to pray for each other (otherwise, why should someone bother adding a name to the temple prayer roll for patrons to pray for them or someone else, when they can just "go directly to God"?) and Catholics don't believe that ends in death. 

 

I further find that this belief in Heavenly intercession tied to deification, where we share in the very life that God lives.  This is how Heavenly intercession is possible, in that view.

[Stone holm]

y

I can't think of anything in Mormon teachings either.

 

Really?  You think that God had sex outside marriage? or don't you believe Christ had a Father?

[pogi]

Really?  You think that God had sex outside marriage? or don't you believe Christ had a Father?

 

Yes, really.  I was hoping that you would provide a reference rather than offering speculative questions as evidence of such teachings. If you bring up the Adam-God theory, I will be disappointed.

 

No, I don't think that God was married to Mary or had sex with her.  That is not what the scriptures teach, nor the prophets.  She was his daughter for crying out loud!  She married Joseph, remember?  Are you accusing her of polyandry?

Edited March 13, 2014 by pogi

[why me]

I believe this has already been explained, and you're misconstruing the argument being made.  When Catholics pray "to" various saints, it is believed to be along the lines of asking my mother, my sister, my brother, my neighbor, etc to pray for me to God.  Catholics believe in a concept called the "communion of saints", where the Church is united, in Jesus Christ, on earth and in Heaven.  It is one Family.  It is believed that we can ask our earthly family members to pray for us, and we can ask our Heavenly family members to pray for us.  Both are intercessory prayers, similar how Latter-day Saints pray for others in the temple.  Yes, one can always go "directly to God", however we are also called to pray for each other (otherwise, why should someone bother adding a name to the temple prayer roll for patrons to pray for them or someone else, when they can just "go directly to God"?) and Catholics don't believe that ends in death. 

 

I further find that this belief in Heavenly intercession tied to deification, where we share in the very life that God lives.  This is how Heavenly intercession is possible, in that view.

I can certainly ask a family member who is alive to pray for me. However, I am not going to pray to my dead uncle for intercession. Since Saemo compared the saints to uncles and aunts and this is why it is fine to pray to them, it does sound a little different if we pray to our uncle or aunt who are dead for intercession. The lord's prayer is rather clear just how we should pray.

 

We should separate life and from death with the individuals who we are asking to pray for us. However, I can see where one could find comfort in praying to dead saints. But there is this part of me that believes we should leave the saints alone so that they can also enjoy their eternity.

Edited March 13, 2014 by why me

[mfbukowski]

I believe this has already been explained, and you're misconstruing the argument being made.  When Catholics pray "to" various saints, it is believed to be along the lines of asking my mother, my sister, my brother, my neighbor, etc to pray for me to God.  Catholics believe in a concept called the "communion of saints", where the Church is united, in Jesus Christ, on earth and in Heaven.  It is one Family.  It is believed that we can ask our earthly family members to pray for us, and we can ask our Heavenly family members to pray for us.  Both are intercessory prayers, similar how Latter-day Saints pray for others in the temple.  Yes, one can always go "directly to God", however we are also called to pray for each other (otherwise, why should someone bother adding a name to the temple prayer roll for patrons to pray for them or someone else, when they can just "go directly to God"?) and Catholics don't believe that ends in death. 

 

I further find that this belief in Heavenly intercession tied to deification, where we share in the very life that God lives.  This is how Heavenly intercession is possible, in that view.

Actually the idea is fairly similar to the LDS idea of the Patriarchal Order- that all humankind could be sealed together as one family with our Father at the head.  Indeed that is why we do work for the dead

 

For us, the purpose of that work is to keep the vision of the human family - living and dead- as one unit, ever in our minds.  Every soul is precious.

[Calm]

. But there is this part of me that believes we should leave the saints alone so that they can also enjoy their eternity.

So much for missionary work in the spirit world then.

[pogi]

I can certainly ask a family member who is alive to pray for me. However, I am not going to pray to my dead uncle for intercession. Since Saemo compared the saints to uncles and aunts and this is why it is fine to pray to them, it does sound a little different if we pray to our uncle or aunt who are dead for intercession. The lord's prayer is rather clear just how we should pray.

 

The Catholics on this board can correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the position of the Catholic Church is that Catholics do not pray to saints or Mary, rather they ask saints or Mary to pray for them.  Catholics only pray to God just like the rest of us.

[saemo]

To pray, means to ask someone to do something. "Pray tell", can be addressed to anyone, not just God. We are in fact praying to the Saints, in the form of asking the Saints to do something for us, which is, to pray to God for/with us.

[saemo]

Actually the idea is fairly similar to the LDS idea of the Patriarchal Order- that all humankind could be sealed together as one family with our Father at the head.  Indeed that is why we do work for the dead

 

For us, the purpose of that work is to keep the vision of the human family - living and dead- as one unit, ever in our minds.  Every soul is precious.

I agree it is a similar idea. The differences make a difference. We are sealed to Christ. There is no need to be sealed to each other, and seems superfluous to Catholic ears. If I'm sealed to Jesus, and my family is sealed to Jesus, what more do we need?

Edited March 13, 2014 by saemo

[MiserereNobis]

Actually the idea is fairly similar to the LDS idea of the Patriarchal Order- that all humankind could be sealed together as one family with our Father at the head.  Indeed that is why we do work for the dead

 

For us, the purpose of that work is to keep the vision of the human family - living and dead- as one unit, ever in our minds.  Every soul is precious.

 

This is similar to the Catholic idea of the Communion of Saints and the Mystical Body of Christ, of which we are all members.

[ChristKnight]

I can certainly ask a family member who is alive to pray for me. However, I am not going to pray to my dead uncle for intercession.

 

No one asked you to.

 

Since Saemo compared the saints to uncles and aunts and this is why it is fine to pray to them, it does sound a little different if we pray to our uncle or aunt who are dead for intercession.

 

This has already been explained more than once.  In Catholic/Orthodox theology, the belief in the communion of saints, as well as the belief that those in Heaven participate in the life that God lives, leads to the belief that those in Heaven can still pray for us, just as the earthly saints can pray for each other. 

 

The lord's prayer is rather clear just how we should pray.

 

Catholics/Orthodox believe that God is ultimately the one who answers all prayers, and that members of the Church, whether on earth or in Heaven, can pray for each other.

 

 

We should separate life and from death with the individuals who we are asking to pray for us. However, I can see where one could find comfort in praying to dead saints. But there is this part of me that believes we should leave the saints alone so that they can also enjoy their eternity.

 

Thanks for your personal belief.  However both Catholics and Latter-day Saints believe that the deceased saints have "work" to do (whether it's intercessory prayer, missionary work, etc), and even that they are somehow involved in the lives of the earthly saints.