How Prevalent Are Serious Doubters In The Lds Church

[DBMormon]

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865585321/How-LDS-Church-members-can-help-themselves-and-loved-ones-deal-with-doubt.html

 

We all know that to get a real grasp of how many people in the LDS faith have doubts is a tough stat to wrap one's hands around but This quote is curious

PROVO — David Marsh opened his BYU Campus Education Week class with a question.

“How many of you know someone struggling with doubt?” he asked the audience.

Nearly everyone reached a hand toward the ceiling.

 

 

 

Is this an indicator?

[Questing Beast]

Becoming more numerous all the time. The ten tips for dealing with doubt are themselves problematic, if one already does not have faith in a "Christian" Jesus Christ, if one already doubts that there are "authoritative sources" for the more serious questions, if one considers doubts as legitimate as beliefs, if doubts linger because they are not answered or answerable (no. 10 being the caveat to the other nine tips)....

[DBMormon]

Also one only need look at articles where doubt or faith crisis are discussed and see the number of comments that roll in.  At the very least there is a lot of passion in this topic.

 

Check # of comments here on each article

http://www.deseretnews.com/faith

Edited August 28, 2013 by DBMormon

[thesometimesaint]

It is an indicator, but not of doubt. Anyway we all see through that glass darkly, and I don't believe that will change anytime soon.

[rpn]

Well, why would you be attending this one of the dozens of education week classes if you didn't know someone who was doubting?   And doesn't everyone doubt at one time or another (at least their capacity to live all the commandments in the way they believe they should)?

[Palerider]

 

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865585321/How-LDS-Church-members-can-help-themselves-and-loved-ones-deal-with-doubt.html

 

We all know that to get a real grasp of how many people in the LDS faith have doubts is a tough stat to wrap one's hands around but This quote is curious

 

 

Is this an indicator?

I'm not really sure how to respond to your question since I don't think the church has done any serious statistical work in this area. I'm sure they probably have a sort of "approach/avoidance" reaction to it because they would probably like to know how many of their members are "members" on record only, and yet to actually know the extent of the problem might be depressing, since I don't think they have any effective means of dealing with it.

I will tell you that when I told my stake president that I was leaving and that I thought that this is going to be the most difficult problem that the church would be forced to deal with, he responded that pornography was the most difficult issue that the church was haviing to deal with.

My thoughts? As difficult and damaging as pornography is, there is a good chance of recovery through repentance and behavior modification. So if someone is willing to fight that battle they can eventually conquer and be in good stead.

However, with loss of faith in the foundation of the church it is my belief that the chances of recovery are very slim indeed. I know there are a bunch of you out there that will probably relate anecdotal stories to refute this, but I believe that if we had the actual statistics, the vast majority of people who leave the church no longer believing that Joseph Smith was a true prophet....are gone permanently.

This eventually will damage the church much more than pornography.....

Note: My interview with the Stake President took place about 6 years ago.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Palerider

[The Nehor]

I disagree. Porn is a far bigger problem.

I think there is a lot of doubt out there but I really doubt that much of it is tied to church history or doctrinal issues. Much more prevalent is doubt in God's existence, doubt that He cares, doubt that the gospel is worth it, or doubt in the efficacy of the atonement to heal.

[Palerider]

 

I disagree. Porn is a far bigger problem.

I think there is a lot of doubt out there but I really doubt that much of it is tied to church history or doctrinal issues. Much more prevalent is doubt in God's existence, doubt that He cares, doubt that the gospel is worth it, or doubt in the efficacy of the atonement to heal.

 

It's a free country.

But if you look at it from the point of view that one can recover from pornography addiction, then the member is more likely to return one day or even continue in the church (being a contributor) during recovery.

In the case of the collapse of faith I believe the chance of recovery is far less. It means the element of trust between the individual and the institution is shattered. It's much more than just being offended by some individual in the church. It's a redefining of the institution as not truly having the individuals best interest at heart.

In a word......"divorce and alienation". With pornography the member can still see the church as being an aid to their quality of life. Not so with alienation.

[daz2]

Doubt is not a new issue.  At least one study shows that 70% of raised Mormons become disengaged (inactive) for at least a year at some point in their life, and that a majority of Mormons (55%) become disengaged and disbelieving for at least a year.  Of those, a majority (60%) of the disbelieving and disengaged members return.  Stan L. Albrecht, Marie Cornwall, & Perry H. Cunningham, AReligious Leave-Taking: Disengagement and Disaffiliation Among Mormons.@ In Falling from the Faith, ed. David G. Bromley, pp. 62-80. Newbury Park, CA: Sage Publications 1988). 

 

All religions in the U.S. are currently experiencing higher rates of disengagement and disaffiliation than in the past.  I think ours is too.

 

But doubt is not a new serious problem.  And doubt is not incurable.  I suspect many people on the board who are currently believing participating members of the Church have been through periods of very serious doubt or of actual disbelief.  

[Scott Lloyd]

From one of the reader comments attached to the Deseret News article linked to in the OP:

 

I’m guessing that compassion goes (for doubting members) only up to a certain point. If someone’s doubt reaches a critical mass – where big light bulbs start going off all over the place and the entire enterprise (religion) seems like little more than made up stories & superstitions – my guess is that compassion will go away pretty quickly and the Church will want nothing more to do with you (which is understandable but sad when that extends to friends and especially family members).

 

If there is a perception that "compassion go[es] away pretty quickly," perhaps it is because the individual has moved from a state of expressing sincere doubts to stance of strident and hostile opposition to the Church of Jesus Christ. It might be a challenge to determine the person's position along that spectrum, but I would suggest that the appropriate response might differ accordingly. Understand, I'm not countenancing unkindness here, rather, defense when confronted with aggression.

 

To take a hypothetical example, suppose a doubting relative gets to the point of bitter and vocal opposition. His inability to keep his mouth in check might make a difference as to whether he remains welcome in my home around my impressionable children. If not, he may deem me as lacking compassion when, in reality, I am simply protecting my loved ones and sheltering my hearth and home from the influence of his bitterness and anger.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

 

 

It's a free country.

But if you look at it from the point of view that one can recover from pornography addiction, then the member is more likely to return one day or even continue in the church (being a contributor) during recovery.

In the case of the collapse of faith I believe the chance of recovery is far less. It means the element of trust between the individual and the institution is shattered. It's much more than just being offended by some individual in the church. It's a redefining of the institution as not truly having the individuals best interest at heart.

In a word......"divorce and alienation". With pornography the member can still see the church as being an aid to their quality of life. Not so with alienation.

It is not self-evident that the chance of recovery from porn addiction is necessarily greater than the chance of recovering faith once it is lost.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[omni]

Unfortunately for many on the church, viewing porn is synonymous with loss of faith. When I told my bishop I was struggling with my testimony the first thing he asked me was if I was looking at porn. When I told my wife she thought it was an excuse so I could start looking at porn or cheat on her (thankfully she now realizes this was wrong). When my wife told my FIL, he told her a story of his friend who was addicted to pornography, but supposedly used historical issues to leave the church.

I think for many members It's much less threatening to think someone is leaving the church because they want to sin rather than for legitimate intellectual reasons.

Edited August 28, 2013 by omni

[Duncan]

I wonder though if the people attending this meeting were people who knew someone dealing with doubt or possibly dealing with it themselves.So in reality yoou could have a thousand people not go who aren't interested in doubt either for themselves or for others but you just have people attending who are dealing in some way with doubt

[BCSpace]

I think we'll see more of them, but my experience is that the average stumbling blocks of being caught up in the worldly things of life, boredom and lack of spiritual experiences (not being able to recognize them), and not being raised strong in the Church from childhood (often a result of a broken family) is a FAR worse problem in terms of inactivity and wanting to leave the Church than any criticism one might find, say, on the internet.

[Scott Lloyd]

Unfortunately for many on the church, viewing porn is synonymous with loss of faith. When I told my bishop I was struggling with my testimony the first thing he asked me was of I was looking at porn. When I told my wife she thought it was an excuse so I could start looking at porn or cheat on her (thankfully she now realizes this was wrong). When my wife told my FIL, he told her a story of his friend who was addicted to pornography, but supposedly used historical issues to leave the church.

I think for many members It's much less threatening to think someone is leaving the church because they want to sin rather than for legitimate intellectual reasons.

It may well be the case. The fact that it does not apply in every instance does not mean it never applies. In any event, one can hardly fault an earnest priesthood leader for trying in a searching interview to get at the root of the problem.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[sdc999]

I had a man at my location of business several months back.  I noticed, by his clothing, that garments were not being worn.  He and I have had lunch together on occasions and we talk openly.  One day, out of the blue, he said, "you know I just go to make my wife happy."  Kaboom.  This guy and his wife had been greeters at the door for as long as I could remember.  He goes to the Temple with her regularly and they are pushing over 50 years of marriage.  I gather from our conversation that his wife is well aware of his beliefs or disbeliefs and is perfectly okay with it.  

I am aware of several other 'young' people who go just to avoid the wrath of parental figures, and these are out of the house young people. Breaking away is not always easy when family consequences can be harsh.  In a perfect world, family would love you no matter the circumstances, but then again, we do live in the real world.  

 

This would really fall under 'serious disbelievers'.

Edited August 28, 2013 by sdc999

[Scott Lloyd]

 

I'm not really sure how to respond to your question since I don't think the church has done any serious statistical work in this area. I'm sure they probably have a sort of "approach/avoidance" reaction to it because they would probably like to know how many of their members are "members" on record only, and yet to actually know the extent of the problem might be depressing, since I don't think they have any effective means of dealing with it.

I will tell you that when I told my stake president that I was leaving and that I thought that this is going to be the most difficult problem that the church would be forced to deal with, he responded that pornography was the most difficult issue that the church was haviing to deal with.

My thoughts? As difficult and damaging as pornography is, there is a good chance of recovery through repentance and behavior modification. So if someone is willing to fight that battle they can eventually conquer and be in good stead.

However, with loss of faith in the foundation of the church it is my belief that the chances of recovery are very slim indeed. I know there are a bunch of you out there that will probably relate anecdotal stories to refute this, but I believe that if we had the actual statistics, the vast majority of people who leave the church no longer believing that Joseph Smith was a true prophet....are gone permanently.

This eventually will damage the church much more than pornography.....

 

I'm curious as to how you think it will be more damaging than pornography.

 

The broken homes and lives and wounds that result from pornography addiction are readily apparent, often affecting not just the addicted person but the innocents who are close to him.

 

On the other hand, since the organization of the Church in 1830, there have always been members who have fallen away, and among them, there have always been those who have become strident detractors. Yet the Church as an institution has continued to grow and progress in its mission.

 

I'm inclined to agree with your stake president.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[CV75]

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865585321/How-LDS-Church-members-can-help-themselves-and-loved-ones-deal-with-doubt.html

 

We all know that to get a real grasp of how many people in the LDS faith have doubts is a tough stat to wrap one's hands around but This quote is curious

 

 

Is this an indicator?

Not an indicator of how many people, but I think it's fair to say that virtually everone has doubts about something, at some time or another, to some degree, even if only in themselves vis-a-vis what they know to be true. The exact same thing can be said for faith, which is really how things get done, and so pound for pound, is the more powerful of the two sentiments 9for lack of a better word).

 

We can approach doubts with the faith we have, or with more doubt. We can steady the feeble knees or we can exploit them. We can exaggerate so as to give doubt more power and influence than warranted to fulfill whatever agenda, or we can minimize and ignore it for the same reason.

 

Doubt is definitely not part of the Gospel and Doctrine of Christ.

[CV75]

Also one only need look at articles where doubt or faith crisis are discussed and see the number of comments that roll in.  At the very least there is a lot of passion in this topic.

 

Check # of comments here on each article

http://www.deseretnews.com/faith

The same is true for news about "twerking" -- what does that say about its role in the Gospel of Christ?

[The Nehor]

I think for many members It's much less threatening to think someone is leaving the church because they want to sin rather than for legitimate intellectual reasons.

Why is sinning an illegitimate reason to leave?

[sdc999]

I'm curious as to how you think it will be more damaging than pornography.

 

The broken homes and lives and wounds that result from pornography addiction are readily apparent.

 

On the other hand, since the organization of the Church in 1830, there have always been members who have fallen away, and among them, there have always been those who have become strident detractors. Ye the Church has continued to grow and progress in its mission.

 

I'm inclined to agree with your stake president.

Pornography is an example of a person falling short, which leaves the integrity of the church intact. 

If enough members (prominent) defect for doctrinal reasons, then the church's integrity comes into play. 

For example:  If a regular Joe leaves the church, not much is going to be said; In fact, some will be quick to judge and say they sinned or didn't want to live a good life.  But if a Bishop, EQ pres or Stake holding person should leave,  some members react with a 'hey, that is a pretty smart guy/gal.  What does he/she know that I don't?'

This doesn't happen often, but it does happen.   

So, to answer your statement,  you are correct in the church continuing to grow even with members who have fallen away, but it has also grown with porn addicts within its ranks as well.

Decision making weight is not placed upon those without credibility and sinners usually lack credibility.   I would be more worried about fallout of a good standing member leaving for doctrinal reasons rather than a porn addict leaving.

[The Nehor]

The same is true for news about "twerking" -- what does that say about its role in the Gospel of Christ?

That we should add it when the ward choir sings.

[CA Steve]

Is leaving the Church a sin?

[CV75]

That we should add it when the ward choir sings.

I think plenty of people doubt our chior can sing already!

[Scott Lloyd]

Pornography is an example of a person falling short, which leaves the integrity of the church intact. 

Members addicted to porn can and do harm the image of the Church. It's not often to a debilitating degree, but the potential for harm is there, particularly if the person is prominent and/or his addiction progresses to sex crimes, the hiring of prostitutes and what not.

If enough members (prominent) defect for doctrinal reasons, then the church's integrity comes into play. 

For example:  If a regular Joe leaves the church, not much is going to be said; In fact, some will be quick to judge and say they sinned or didn't want to live a good life.  But if a Bishop, EQ pres or Stake holding person should leave,  some members react with a 'hey, that is a pretty smart guy/gal.  What does he/she know that I don't?'

This doesn't happen often, but it does happen.   

 

To the extent that it has happened, it has not been debilitating to the Church any more than porn addiction. If you are saying that it one day will be, well, your prognostication is no better than the next person's.

 

Moreover, when a person's reasons for doubting are examined, they may not be viewed by many people as all that compelling. For example, the seer stone in the had has always struck me as a pretty trivial reason for calling the authenticity of the Book of Mormon or the Restoration into question. I suspect I am far from being in the minority with that assessment.

 

So, to answer your statement,  you are correct in the church continuing to grow even with members who have fallen away, but it has also grown with porn addicts within its ranks as well.

 

 

 

Hence, my contention that it is not self-evident that people falling away for intellectual reasons harms the Church any more than does the circumstance of members falling victim to porn addiction.

 

Decision making weight is not placed upon those without credibility and sinners usually lack credibility.   I would be more worried about fallout of a good standing member leaving for doctrinal reasons rather than a porn addict leaving.

 

I don't see why. Ostensibly upstanding members unfortunately are among those who become addicted to porn. An observer could say, "If Mormonism is supposed to make people so good and strong, why did that guy get addicted to porn?"

Edited August 28, 2013 by Scott Lloyd