Eternal Covenants/Baptism at 8 years old

[pogi]

My son is approaching 8 years old, and I have some concerns and am in search of some wisdom to help me through this in how to approach it.

To help explain where I am coming from, let me share a quick funny but true story. 

My son, while at the dinner table, stood up a few weeks ago and told us that he needs to tell us something "important".  He said that he couldn't tell us while looking at us so he went into his room and wanted to talk to us behind closed door, because it was too sensitive for him.   We were naturally curious and somewhat concerned about what he might tell us that he was so afraid to tell us to our face.   He eventually got up the courage and said, "Mom and Dad, I got married".   My wife and I looked at each other with puzzled but amused looks on our faces and said "congratulations, who's the lucky girl?" 

My boy "married" his best friend (a girl) during lunch break.  He gave her one of my daughter's plastic toy rings.   She said yes.  They sealed it with a kiss on her "hand, forehead, and lips". 
 

This just highlights the level of maturity these kids are at in understanding forever promises.  As cute as this is, and as real as his commitment to this cute little girl may be, we all know that he is too young to understand the gravity of such covenants that are associated with things like marriage.   I look at baptism in many ways like marriage to the Church, as that is intricately tied to the covenants entered with God.   Aren't these kids too young and inexperienced to understand the gravity and eternal consequence of such promises?  If we were to compare baptism to a marriage, baptisms for 8-year-olds who are raised in the church are more akin to arranged marriages.  Sure, we let them decide, but my boy still believes in Santa Claus - they are going to believe whatever we tell them accompanied with a strong desire to please their parents and church leaders and to fit in with their friends who were baptized.  There is an overwhelming social conditioning without, I think, the emotional and cognitive capacity for genuine informed consent.  They don't know anything else!  They don't have capacity to explore or really understand other options.  They don't really understand that they are going to be warned about what happens to "covenant breakers" for the rest of their lives.  They are usually only given the soft version and blessings associated with baptism in general, but do not understand the consequences for violation of such covenants.    Once in, there is no out without the associated promised consequences about covenant breakers.

I don't think my kid is old enough and mature enough to be informed and make such weighty decisions, and so I am torn.  It seems like a person is old enough to get baptized when they are old enough to get married on their own.

Then there is this: 

Quote

And their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when eight years old, and receive the laying on of the hands” (Doctrine and Covenants 68:27).

Help me understand why 8-year-olds need to be baptized "for the remission of sins"?  Don't they have a clean slate already up to this point? 

That is a more minor issue I have, but still something I think about.  

Any thoughts?

 

 

 

 

Edited January 12, 2024 by pogi

[Pyreaux]

He may still be innocent and not very accountable but that will change soon. He'll need the Holy Spirit after he's 12 when he gets the spirit of rebellion and he'll need it to be qualified to serve as a priest, assuming he's a Gentile.

8 is a significant number in initiations and signs God's acceptance, the 8th day is the final initiation day of priests, circumcision, purification rites. Because The 8th day transforms into the 1st, 8 is a number that symbolizes rebirth, transformation, and resurrection. The 8th day was a good day for initiation rites like a baptism, endowments and other such revival ordinances.

“Eight souls were saved by water.” Peter continues, “The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us" (1 Pet. 3:21).

Edited January 12, 2024 by Pyreaux

[Calm]

I think 8 is more about symbolism and much less about being ready to make an eternal covenant.  I don’t believe any mortal is ready for an eternal covenant because of the amount of knowledge and experience we lack or at least don’t have access to because of the veil;  the only thing we are really qualified for is to trust God and an 8 year old is probably better at that than a 30 year old.  What we are doing here with baptism annd confirmation imo is both practice and a way that allows God to bless us with the Holy Ghost.

Edited January 12, 2024 by Calm

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

My son is approaching 8 years old, and I have some concerns and am in search of some wisdom to help me through this in how to approach it.

To help explain where I am coming from, let me share a quick funny but true story. 

My son, while at the dinner table, stood up a few weeks ago and told us that he needs to tell us something "important".  He said that he couldn't tell us while looking at us so he went into his room and wanted to talk to us behind closed door, because it was too sensitive for him.   We were naturally curious and somewhat concerned about what he might tell us that he was so afraid to tell us to our face.   He eventually got up the courage and said, "Mom and Dad, I got married".   My wife and I looked at each other with puzzled but amused looks on our faces and said "congratulations, who's the lucky girl?" 

My boy "married" his best friend (a girl) during lunch break.  He gave her one of my daughter's plastic toy rings.   She said yes.  They sealed it with a kiss on her "hand, forehead, and lips". 
 

This just highlights the level of maturity these kids are at in understanding forever promises.  As cute as this is, and as real as his commitment to this cute little girl may be, we all know that he is too young to understand the gravity of such covenants that are associated with things like marriage.   I look at baptism in many ways like marriage to the Church, as that is intricately tied to the covenants entered with God.   Aren't these kids too young and inexperienced to understand the gravity and eternal consequence of such promises?  If we were to compare baptism to a marriage, baptisms for 8-year-olds who are raised in the church are more akin to arranged marriages.  Sure, we let them decide, but my boy still believes in Santa Claus - they are going to believe whatever we tell them accompanied with a strong desire to please their parents and church leaders and to fit in with their friends who were baptized.  There is an overwhelming social conditioning without, I think, the emotional and cognitive capacity for genuine informed consent.  They don't know anything else!  They don't have capacity to explore or really understand other options.  They don't really understand that they are going to be warned about what happens to "covenant breakers" for the rest of their lives.  They are usually only given the soft version and blessings associated with baptism in general, but do not understand the consequences for violation of such covenants.    Once in, there is no out without the associated promised consequences about covenant breakers.

I don't think my kid is old enough and mature enough to be informed and make such weighty decisions, and so I am torn.  It seems like a person is old enough to get baptized when they are old enough to get married on their own.

Then there is this: 

Help me understand why 8-year-olds need to be baptized "for the remission of sins"?  Don't they have a clean slate already up to this point? 

That is a more minor issue I have, but still something I think about.  

Any thoughts?

 

 

 

 

Actually 8 year-old children are not baptized only for remission of sins; or at least for them that's not the primary reason. They are baptized to become members of the Church and to "fulfill all righteousness" as the sinless Jesus did when He was baptized(Matt. 3:13-17). Jesus also had a clean slate.
Also, children aren't baptized the exact moment they turn eight. It can sometimes be a month or more later depending on the circumstances. Since no one really knows the exact moment a child becomes accountable for sins, the baptism washes away any few sins that they may have committed since becoming accountable. This gives them a clean slate to start from. After baptism they may then take advantage of the principle of repentance and receive a remission of any sins they do commit later on.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

Actually 8 year-old children are not baptized only for remission of sins; or at least for them that's not the primary reason. They are baptized to become members of the Church and to "fulfill all righteousness" as the sinless Jesus did when He was baptized(Matt. 3:13-17). Jesus also had a clean slate.
Also, children aren't baptized the exact moment they turn eight. It can sometimes be a month or more later depending on the circumstances. Since no one really knows the exact moment a child becomes accountable for sins, the baptism washes away any few sins that they may have committed since becoming accountable. This gives them a clean slate to start from. After baptism they may then take advantage of the principle of repentance and receive a remission of any sins they do commit later on.

Well, if they aren't baptized at eight or soon after doesn't the church require them to have missionaries teach them first before they get baptized? 

@pogi

I got married at around 8 years old, pretty sure I was in 2nd grade, lol. I married Ronnie and he had a pair of black glasses that were taped in the middle for some reason. Some of our little friends came with too, we left the school grounds and went to someone's backyard next door and had a quick ceremony and then headed back. We were all called into the principal's office that day. This really did happen,😆 believe it or not. 

I don't know what to say Pogi, maybe see how he feels about it. He may not feel comfortable skipping it if his peers are all getting baptized. 

Edited January 12, 2024 by Tacenda

[gopher]

Cute story!  Sounds like he's old enough now for the talk on the dangers of premarital hand holding.

My favorite calling was teaching 7 year olds in Primary.  Maybe it was my imagination, but there seemed to be a big change in their spiritual maturity as they were baptized throughout the year.  By the end of the year, class members were much more reverent and and thoughtful in their responses than the beginning.  I guess I don't see it as a weighty decision to get baptized when 8.  Instead it's more the opposite of weighty. 

 

[MiserereNobis]

This honestly is one of my comebacks when LDS attack infant baptism. 8 year old children raised LDS don’t really have a choice either, right? And how is a 7 year old innocent and an 8 year old not? (study cognitive development and/or visit an elementary school). 

In Catholicism, the “keeping” of the baptismal covenant (to use LDS terms) is on the parents and godparents. The child becomes responsible at confirmation, which in the US is around 15 or 16. 

[Diamondhands69]

Baptism is also when you exchange “free agency” and accept “moral agency” and at that point no longer have a choice to serve a mission (for males). it is now mandatory. 

perfect thing for an 8 year old to commit to.

of course maybe folks are making it known to them because we have a bunch of 7-8 yr olds running around with those micro missionary badges. I suppose at least they are telling them they have just committed to a mission unlike when I was a kid. Amazing I am just hearing about all these co venants made at baptism. No way a kid is mature enough to digest what that even means. 

 

Edited January 12, 2024 by Diamondhands69

[let’s roll]

5 hours ago, pogi said:

they are going to believe whatever we tell them accompanied with a strong desire to please their parents and church leaders

What both we and Deity want for our children is life eternal, to know God and Christ, and if, as you say, they are going to believe whatever we tell them then it behooves both us and them that we tell them the truth, that they have a Heavenly Father and a Savior and that at the age of eight (and even younger), they have both the opportunity and the ability to do what we have done, approach Deity with sincerity….to seek, to knock, and to ask and as a result, feel divine love, receive divine wisdom and experience the rest promised to those who come unto Christ.  

As they do so their desire to be baptized will be underpinned by much more than a desire to please parents and leaders, it will spring from a simple, yet powerful relationship with Deity.

My experience has been that many parents underestimate the spiritual aptitude of their children, forgetting that the spiritual relationships we want for our children are, to a significant extent, already in place…the other side of the veil is a more recent experience for them and they are adept at retaining and remembering pre mortal love but lack the spiritual context and vocabulary to articulate that remembering.  My belief is that as we come to understand that truth, we will realize that we as parents don’t need to try to bring the divine to our children, rather our focus should be on helping them recognize, articulate and grow the divine already in them.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

This honestly is one of my comebacks when LDS attack infant baptism. 8 year old children raised LDS don’t really have a choice either, right? And how is a 7 year old innocent and an 8 year old not? (study cognitive development and/or visit an elementary school). 

In Catholicism, the “keeping” of the baptismal covenant (to use LDS terms) is on the parents and godparents. The child becomes responsible at confirmation, which in the US is around 15 or 16. 

I guess things have changed?

I was raised Catholic 

First communion AND "confession"  (today the name has changed, I have forgotten it) included your first confession, which was typically centered around obeying your parents, and happened at age 7, second grade. You entered the confessional and told the priest your sins.

If you can't sin, there is no need for confession of sin 

Confession started with the words "Forgive me Father for I have sinned.. this is my first confession..."

This was considered the "age of reason "- the age at which sin became possible

One was also taught the "Act of Contrition" which told God how sorry you were for sinning, and ending with " I firmly resolve with the help of thy grace to sin no more and to avoid the near occasions of sin. Amen "  You then received absolution from the priest, and received your penance which was often a few "Hail Mary" prayers.

Wikipedia:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person_(Catholic_canon_law)#:~:text=Age of reason,-See also%3A Age&text=On completion of the seventh,of reason" does not appear.

"Age of reasonedit

See also: Age of accountability

The age of reason, sometimes called the age of discretion, is the age at which children attain the use of reason and begin to have moral responsibility. On completion of the seventh year, a minor is presumed to have the use of reason,^[3] but intellectual disability can prevent some individuals from ever attaining the use of reason. The term "use of reason" appears in the 1983 Code of Canon Law 17 times, but "age of reason" does not appear.^[4] However, the term "age of reason" is used in canon law commentaries such as the New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law published by Paulist Press in 2002."

 

Edited January 12, 2024 by mfbukowski

[CV75]

14 hours ago, pogi said:

My son is approaching 8 years old, and I have some concerns and am in search of some wisdom to help me through this in how to approach it.

To help explain where I am coming from, let me share a quick funny but true story. 

My son, while at the dinner table, stood up a few weeks ago and told us that he needs to tell us something "important".  He said that he couldn't tell us while looking at us so he went into his room and wanted to talk to us behind closed door, because it was too sensitive for him.   We were naturally curious and somewhat concerned about what he might tell us that he was so afraid to tell us to our face.   He eventually got up the courage and said, "Mom and Dad, I got married".   My wife and I looked at each other with puzzled but amused looks on our faces and said "congratulations, who's the lucky girl?" 

My boy "married" his best friend (a girl) during lunch break.  He gave her one of my daughter's plastic toy rings.   She said yes.  They sealed it with a kiss on her "hand, forehead, and lips". 
 

This just highlights the level of maturity these kids are at in understanding forever promises.  As cute as this is, and as real as his commitment to this cute little girl may be, we all know that he is too young to understand the gravity of such covenants that are associated with things like marriage.   I look at baptism in many ways like marriage to the Church, as that is intricately tied to the covenants entered with God.   Aren't these kids too young and inexperienced to understand the gravity and eternal consequence of such promises?  If we were to compare baptism to a marriage, baptisms for 8-year-olds who are raised in the church are more akin to arranged marriages.  Sure, we let them decide, but my boy still believes in Santa Claus - they are going to believe whatever we tell them accompanied with a strong desire to please their parents and church leaders and to fit in with their friends who were baptized.  There is an overwhelming social conditioning without, I think, the emotional and cognitive capacity for genuine informed consent.  They don't know anything else!  They don't have capacity to explore or really understand other options.  They don't really understand that they are going to be warned about what happens to "covenant breakers" for the rest of their lives.  They are usually only given the soft version and blessings associated with baptism in general, but do not understand the consequences for violation of such covenants.    Once in, there is no out without the associated promised consequences about covenant breakers.

I don't think my kid is old enough and mature enough to be informed and make such weighty decisions, and so I am torn.  It seems like a person is old enough to get baptized when they are old enough to get married on their own.

Then there is this: 

Help me understand why 8-year-olds need to be baptized "for the remission of sins"?  Don't they have a clean slate already up to this point? 

That is a more minor issue I have, but still something I think about.  

Any thoughts?

 

 

 

 

As with the boy’s “marriage” (and let’s see where that goes!), I think an eight-year-old can make a baptismal covenant in good faith, and we’ll see where that goes. He wasn’t afraid to get “married,” but if he is afraid to get baptized, give him some time. He believes in Santa Claus, but if he doesn’t believe in Christ, I would say he needs more time.

I think the Lord takes the child’s social conditioning, emotional and cognitive capacity and developmental level of agency into account, just as He did with Adam and Eve. He set forth and integrated His doctrines, including the age of accountability and parental responsibility and stewardship and the consequences for keeping and breaking covenants. An eight-year-old will get blessings and condemnation suitable for an eight-year-old. A parent acting in good faith on the timing of their child’s baptism will discover the Lord’s will. The best type of teaching isn’t soft or hard, but age- and individual-appropriate and most of all, loving to emulate the relationship the Lord wishes to establish with these covenants.

Delaying baptism to prevent a potential faith crisis later on in life? That would be like “annulling” the “marriage” to prevent a potential divorce without telling him why, or telling him Santa is just for fun to prevent him from realizing it independently. I would say any delay would have to do with the parent prayerfully assessing the child’s desires as insufficiently willing or prepared for his age to participate, not the parent’s. I mention “prayerfully” because childrearing by parents in the covenant is a joint exercise between the parents and he Lord.

The “remission of sins” is forward-looking as well as backward-looking, just as the atonement of Christ is, as explained in the Book of Mormon. It is this same perspective that allows us to advance through life as we understand and keep the covenants made long ago better and better.

[CV75]

10 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

This honestly is one of my comebacks when LDS attack infant baptism. 8 year old children raised LDS don’t really have a choice either, right? And how is a 7 year old innocent and an 8 year old not? (study cognitive development and/or visit an elementary school). 

In Catholicism, the “keeping” of the baptismal covenant (to use LDS terms) is on the parents and godparents. The child becomes responsible at confirmation, which in the US is around 15 or 16. 

As mentioned here, Posted 12 hours ago, the ordinance does not address guilt alone. I think the difference between infancy and 7, and 7 and 8 is a matter of the Lord's judgement as to how much more moral damage can be done individually and collectively -- both by the child's choices and imposed upon the child's moral compass by evil influences -- between ages 8 and 9 than the prior period.

[CV75]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

I think 8 is more about symbolism and much less about being ready to make an eternal covenant.  I don’t believe any mortal is ready for an eternal covenant because of the amount of knowledge and experience we lack or at least don’t have access to because of the veil;  the only thing we are really qualified for is to trust God and an 8 year old is probably better at that than a 30 year old.  What we are doing here with baptism annd confirmation imo is both practice and a way that allows God to bless us with the Holy Ghost.

...and a way that allows God to bless children with parents enjoying the companionship Holy Ghost in carrying out their prenatal stewardship, and to bless them with the society of others of all ages with the gift and companionship that influences them for good, including the choice to get baptized.

[telnetd]

14 hours ago, pogi said:

Help me understand why 8-year-olds need to be baptized "for the remission of sins"?  Don't they have a clean slate already up to this point?

When I look at my child when he was going through temper tantrums during the years
know as the "terrible twos", I was remined that he was just exhibiting the fallen nature
that he inherited from Adam.  At that age, they can be quite selfish and deceitful. That
is why I don't believe they are anywhere close to having a clean slate.  But nevertheless,
they are saved via the Atonement should they die before reaching an age where they
understand sin, its consequences, and the need for a Redeemer.  For some it is 8, for
others it is much older.

[MiserereNobis]

7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I guess things have changed?

I was raised Catholic 

First communion AND "confession"  (today the name has changed, I have forgotten it) included your first confession, which was typically centered around obeying your parents, and happened at age 7, second grade. You entered the confessional and told the priest your sins.

If you can't sin, there is no need for confession of sin 

Confession started with the words "Forgive me Father for I have sinned.. this is my first confession..."

This was considered the "age of reason "- the age at which sin became possible

One was also taught the "Act of Contrition" which told God how sorry you were for sinning, and ending with " I firmly resolve with the help of thy grace to sin no more and to avoid the near occasions of sin. Amen "  You then received absolution from the priest, and received your penance which was often a few "Hail Mary" prayers.

Wikipedia:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person_(Catholic_canon_law)#:~:text=Age of reason,-See also%3A Age&text=On completion of the seventh,of reason" does not appear.

"Age of reasonedit

See also: Age of accountability

The age of reason, sometimes called the age of discretion, is the age at which children attain the use of reason and begin to have moral responsibility. On completion of the seventh year, a minor is presumed to have the use of reason,^[3] but intellectual disability can prevent some individuals from ever attaining the use of reason. The term "use of reason" appears in the 1983 Code of Canon Law 17 times, but "age of reason" does not appear.^[4] However, the term "age of reason" is used in canon law commentaries such as the New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law published by Paulist Press in 2002."

 

You're absolutely right about confession and the age of discretion. I'm an adult convert, so my first confession covered a long time of sins 

I think my point still stands that confirmation, which happens in the teens, is when someone takes on the responsibilities for their baptism, rather than their parents or godparents.

[JAHS]

13 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Well, if they aren't baptized at eight or soon after doesn't the church require them to have missionaries teach them first before they get baptized? 

I believe the cutoff age is 9 years. Then they have to be taught by the missionaries.

[Teancum]

15 hours ago, pogi said:

My son is approaching 8 years old, and I have some concerns and am in search of some wisdom to help me through this in how to approach it.

To help explain where I am coming from, let me share a quick funny but true story. 

My son, while at the dinner table, stood up a few weeks ago and told us that he needs to tell us something "important".  He said that he couldn't tell us while looking at us so he went into his room and wanted to talk to us behind closed door, because it was too sensitive for him.   We were naturally curious and somewhat concerned about what he might tell us that he was so afraid to tell us to our face.   He eventually got up the courage and said, "Mom and Dad, I got married".   My wife and I looked at each other with puzzled but amused looks on our faces and said "congratulations, who's the lucky girl?" 

My boy "married" his best friend (a girl) during lunch break.  He gave her one of my daughter's plastic toy rings.   She said yes.  They sealed it with a kiss on her "hand, forehead, and lips". 
 

This just highlights the level of maturity these kids are at in understanding forever promises.  As cute as this is, and as real as his commitment to this cute little girl may be, we all know that he is too young to understand the gravity of such covenants that are associated with things like marriage.   I look at baptism in many ways like marriage to the Church, as that is intricately tied to the covenants entered with God.   Aren't these kids too young and inexperienced to understand the gravity and eternal consequence of such promises?  If we were to compare baptism to a marriage, baptisms for 8-year-olds who are raised in the church are more akin to arranged marriages.  Sure, we let them decide, but my boy still believes in Santa Claus - they are going to believe whatever we tell them accompanied with a strong desire to please their parents and church leaders and to fit in with their friends who were baptized.  There is an overwhelming social conditioning without, I think, the emotional and cognitive capacity for genuine informed consent.  They don't know anything else!  They don't have capacity to explore or really understand other options.  They don't really understand that they are going to be warned about what happens to "covenant breakers" for the rest of their lives.  They are usually only given the soft version and blessings associated with baptism in general, but do not understand the consequences for violation of such covenants.    Once in, there is no out without the associated promised consequences about covenant breakers.

I don't think my kid is old enough and mature enough to be informed and make such weighty decisions, and so I am torn.  It seems like a person is old enough to get baptized when they are old enough to get married on their own.

Then there is this: 

Help me understand why 8-year-olds need to be baptized "for the remission of sins"?  Don't they have a clean slate already up to this point? 

That is a more minor issue I have, but still something I think about.  

Any thoughts?

 

 

 

 

There is absolutely know reason, none whatsoever, to baptize a child at eight and expect that they understand at all the covenants they are making. Well one reason. Indoctrination.

[Pyreaux]

11 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

This honestly is one of my comebacks when LDS attack infant baptism. 8 year old children raised LDS don’t really have a choice either, right? And how is a 7 year old innocent and an 8 year old not? (study cognitive development and/or visit an elementary school). 

In Catholicism, the “keeping” of the baptismal covenant (to use LDS terms) is on the parents and godparents. The child becomes responsible at confirmation, which in the US is around 15 or 16. 

Certainly as a matter of choice and understanding, an 8-year-old is leagues above an infant. They can speak and understand the Bishop's questions, and though its only a "parent's testimony", it's a testimony. I believe that the issue was the presumption of innate guilt in the infant verses the 8-year-old possibly incurring his own guilt, however slight. If they half-heartedly sin, they can half-heartedly repent. With the high rates of infancy death of the past and the sound doctrine of the need of baptism is where infancy baptism was seen by some as an act of prudent mercy, but it also featured a condemnation of unbaptised infants that seemed outrageous. Though as I understand it, the modern Roman Catholic no longer condemns infants. Which is great, a bit unfair to your critics to start becoming cool now. 

[Buckeye]

At what age are any of us mature enough to make covenants? My view is that our covenants continue to evolve and expand as we mature. 8 makes sense to me as most children of that age can understand basic right from wrong and associated commandments - don’t steal, don’t hit, say nice things to your sister when she has a rough day, etc. 

When your son is, say, 16 he’ll hopefully have a deeper understanding of right/wrong and so his baptismal covenants will have more meaning than when he was 8. But the value of the covenants is they drive us to be better. That can start at 8 for most people.

[Buckeye]

On a related note, I recall the question arising on this board whether women who covenanted to obey their husbands (full stop) under the previous endowment language are eternally bound by that covenant when the language changed - first to soften and then completely remove that covenant. My view was, and remains, that they are not. As we mature we can drop wrongful covenants.

I don’t subscribe strictly to Karl G Maeser’s famous quote re honor (pasted below).  His is an important view and reflects some truth, but it goes too far when taken to a literal conclusion. To co-opt a key statement from the Supreme Court, our covenants are not a suicude pact. The evolve as we mature.  

Is there nothing eternal an unchanging one might ask. I believe there is. Just one principle upon which all others stand - charity. Every other principle has its bounds and limits and must retreat when in conflict with the pure love of Christ.

I have been asked what I mean by my word of honor. I will tell you. Place me behind prison walls - walls of stone ever so high, ever so thick, reaching ever so far into the ground - there is the possibility that in some way or another I may escape; but stand me on the floor and draw a chalk line around me and have me give my word of honor never to cross it. Can I get out of the circle? No. Never! I'd die first!

[JAHS]

18 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

At what age are any of us mature enough to make covenants? My view is that our covenants continue to evolve and expand as we mature. 8 makes sense to me as most children of that age can understand basic right from wrong and associated commandments - don’t steal, don’t hit, say nice things to your sister when she has a rough day, etc. 

When your son is, say, 16 he’ll hopefully have a deeper understanding of right/wrong and so his baptismal covenants will have more meaning than when he was 8. But the value of the covenants is they drive us to be better. That can start at 8 for most people.

Studies show that a person's brain isn't fully developed until around 20 and are not always able to comprehend the consequences of their actions and fully understand right from wrong.
Teen Brain: Behavior, Problem Solving, and Decision Making (aacap.org)

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Buckeye said:

At what age are any of us mature enough to make covenants? My view is that our covenants continue to evolve and expand as we mature. 8 makes sense to me as most children of that age can understand basic right from wrong and associated commandments - don’t steal, don’t hit, say nice things to your sister when she has a rough day, etc. 

When your son is, say, 16 he’ll hopefully have a deeper understanding of right/wrong and so his baptismal covenants will have more meaning than when he was 8. But the value of the covenants is they drive us to be better. That can start at 8 for most people.

My thoughts as well.  

[LoudmouthMormon]

It's an important topic and I don't want to detract from it, but you also ask this: 

18 hours ago, pogi said:

Help me understand why 8-year-olds need to be baptized "for the remission of sins"?  Don't they have a clean slate already up to this point? 

You don't believe 8 year olds can understand and chose evil?  And you say you're the dad of an 8 yr old?

I remember being 7.9 yrs old, and taking my cousin on a sinning spree, because next week it would all get taken care of.  One of the only times I found myself angry enough to fantasize about unaliving someone happened before I was 8.  I'm sitting here recollecting half a dozen dabblings with monstrousness I did as a child.  Many of those things look silly with hindsight, some of them could have led down horrible dark paths.   I shudder to think what would have become of me, had I not been urged to get baptized and make promises, and had grown ups spend effort to give me weekly good moral foundation building experiences.  

 

 

As for the actual topic, yes, it's usually too early to ask an 8 yr old for a promise that will be binding on them throughout their lives.  We'll occasionally try 17, 16, even 15 yr olds as an adult, but an 8 yr old's brain simply doesn't have the long-term-consequence centers operating yet.   Does it bug me?  Not since I watched Mary Poppins.  "That's a pie crust promise.  Easily made, easily broken."  It's not like the church refuses to let you change your mind.   Getting out of your promise is as simple as a form letter email these days.   Even easier, if you don't mind the occasional awkward visit every time your new ward learns of your existence and stops by to say hi.

Edited January 12, 2024 by LoudmouthMormon

[LoudmouthMormon]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

There is absolutely know reason, none whatsoever, to baptize a child at eight and expect that they understand at all the covenants they are making. Well one reason. Indoctrination.

Could you give me an example of raising a kid that doesn't involve indoctrination?   To illustrate what I mean, here's a possible attempt that I believe would fail: 

"You watch the child grow and try to acquaint them with the incredible diversity of human belief and thought, without pushing any particular viewpoint/gender identity/religion/political persuasion.  They'll find their path and grow into their beliefs over time."

In this example, you'd be indoctrinating the kid into notions of "truth is subjective", and "individuality is superior to collectivism or conformity".   

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

expect that they understand at all the covenants they are making

No one really understands the covenants until one lives them, just like one can’t really comprehend what marriage is or commitment to a job even until one experiences the influences/pressures and choices that come with that life.

Edited January 12, 2024 by Calm