Eternal Covenants/Baptism at 8 years old

[Calm]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

What does such a person yet believe in that terrifies them; why does he hold on to residual terror based on something he no longer believes in;

It is possible to both believe and disbelieve, one might be on an intellectual level, but the other is gut and much harder to address. 

[CV75]

13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Even when the “danger” is gone the habits and the anxieties persist.

Exactly -- it is a deeply rooted paradigm which might be more immediately addressed in terms of mental health than sound doctrinal understanding and application, like those instances where feeding, sheltering and clothing people must occur before they can be in a place to receive the greater light. Relieve one kind or level suffering before another level can be.

Same reply to @mfbukowski, acknowledging that some would rather hold to their paradigm -- it may taste better to them than the pain of experimenting.

Edited January 14, 2024 by CV75

[CV75]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

It is possible to both believe and disbelieve, one might be on an intellectual level, but the other is gut and much harder to address. 

Yes, that is what I see as the tension between tradition and light (D&C 93:36-39) and how "social conditioning" can assist that (D&C 93:40). But sometimes people require other kinds of conditioning: food, shelter, clothing, health (physical and mental), freedom, etc.

The Millennium, in my mind, is the epitome of Zion social conditioning in this world. Some might think the Millennium is yet to come, but President Kimball observed that for some, it has already come*. The Millennium still exists a fallen world. People will still get sick and die, reject the covenant path, and Satan is bound (has stricter limits and limitations) because of the conditioning of the people (1 Nephi 22:26), placing moral choices on another plane. But even the Millennium will end with the Lord's children splitting up and fighting a great and final battle between good and evil. Oppositional choices still exist no matter the degree of social conditioning. I believe the ultimate operation of agency runs deeper than that, and the atonement of Christ deeper than that.

*“When Satan is bound in a single home—when Satan is bound in a single life—the Millennium has already begun in that home, in that life” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 172).

Edited January 14, 2024 by CV75

[Okrahomer]

On 1/11/2024 at 4:59 PM, pogi said:

Help me understand why 8-year-olds need to be baptized "for the remission of sins"?  Don't they have a clean slate already up to this point? 

Apologies if this has already been asked and answered:  

I was interested in understanding what your son believes.  Does he have a desire to be baptized?  Is that desire based on a belief and faith in Jesus — even if it is a childlike belief and faith?

At what point are your concerns actually hindering his nascent faith?  At what point are you no longer “suffer[ing] the little children to come unto [Him]”?

Finally, I wonder if you might also find value in reading points of view from outside our community?  I found This article interesting — as an example.

[Tacenda]

10 minutes ago, Okrahomer said:

Apologies if this has already been asked and answered:  

I was interested in understanding what your son believes.  Does he have a desire to be baptized?  Is that desire based on a belief and faith in Jesus — even if it is a childlike belief and faith?

At what point are your concerns actually hindering his nascent faith?  At what point are you no longer “suffer[ing] the little children to come unto [Him]”?

Finally, I wonder if you might also find value in reading points of view from outside our community?  I found This article interesting — as an example.

Wow, this is IMO going to help see a lot! 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Exactly -- it is a deeply rooted paradigm which might be more immediately addressed in terms of mental health than sound doctrinal understanding and application, like those instances where feeding, sheltering and clothing people must occur before they can be in a place to receive the greater light. Relieve one kind or level suffering before another level can be.

Same reply to @mfbukowski, acknowledging that some would rather hold to their paradigm -- it may taste better to them than the pain of experimenting.

Yes, and many who are "unhoused" prefer to stay that way as well.

 

[let’s roll]

20 hours ago, Teancum said:

I agree but only to a certain extent. We all enter into contracts. In addition to my CPA license I hold a series 7 securities license and a life and health insurance license in the state where I reside. In almost every ethics training I have had the nature of contracts and the ability of the person buying the product to enter the contract is emphasized.  A client that is aged and declining mentally may not be able to to understand a product and the related contract. Unethical professionals sometime take advantage of the elderly.  And if they are found out the face stiff fines. The same is true for someone to young to enter a contract.  Indeed for those under a certain age it is illegal for them to sign contracts.  IMO an 8 year old is to young and not able to make or commit to the baptismal covenant. 

Some smug lawyer may point out that contracts entered into by minors aren’t illegal, they are unenforceable against the minor, but this lawyer won’t. 😉   Always good to have your input Teancum, hope you are well.

[pogi]

22 hours ago, bluebell said:

I've never connected the fear from a faith crisis with the fear of breaking covenants.  I thought the fear/crisis was that the covenants might not be based on anything real, not a fear of what will happen if you break covenants that have no power because they are false.   

Can you explain that a little more?

Sure, I'll try to explain.  A person in faith crisis is not necessarily full-on disbeliever, they may still believe deeply in God but their faith in the institution may struggling.  A person who is transitioning doesn't go from 100% full belief to 100% disbelief overnight.  When a person is raised in the church, God is inseparably and intrinsically connected with the institution of the church.  Our very understanding of the concept of God, who he is, what he is, is entirely derived from the church.  Trying to maintain faith in God while stepping away from the church requires a seemingly impossible dissection of the two.  It is like starting from scratch.  There is a deep rooted belief that leaving the church is the same as turning your back on God.   This deeply engrained psychology is not easy task to overcome.  Even if one cognitively struggles with faith in the institution, there is still the psychological imprinting that ties God to the church that doesn't go away over night.  It is actually a very common experience with people who try to leave cults.   I am not saying our church is a cult (although some definitions of "cult" can include just about any institution), but honestly, trying to separate oneself from it feels psychologically like leaving a cult.  The tentacles run deep.

I would guess that those who come from a strong and deep faith/trust in the church have a much harder time in the transition.  

22 hours ago, bluebell said:

Because if we are talking about the binding nature of covenants made at the time of childhood, my point still stands.

I don't understand your point.  Just because we don't scare them by explaining all of the consequences of breaking their covenant doesn't make them any more competent - in fact, it makes them less. 

22 hours ago, bluebell said:

If a child makes covenants as a child and then continues to believe and sincerely renew them into adulthood, then it is not the covenants made in youth that are binding them anymore.  They are bound by covenants they renewed (based on sincere belief) as an adult.

Big "if".  And for the others?  No take-backs.  The psychological trap of eternally binding covenants they made when they were incompetent may have already sunk deep within.  Now what?  How is that right?

22 hours ago, bluebell said:

These are the people that Elder Bednar is talking about.

I interpret him to be talking about breaking baptismal covenants specifically, but any covenants with God generally. 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2024 by pogi

[pogi]

18 hours ago, CV75 said:

What does such a person yet believe in that terrifies them; why does he hold on to residual terror based on something he no longer believes in; how is the trauma to be resolved? It seems more to me a matter of mental health rather than doctrine and culture, both of which can be dropped and replaced, or a new paradigm toward them adopted.

See my response to bluebell. Hopefully that helps. 

It is not as easy to just "drop" and "replace" doctrine and culture that has formed ones reality for a lifetime.  Psychology doesn't have a quick and easy start and stop switch, even if ones cognitive beliefs and perspectives have changed or evolved. 

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Okrahomer said:

Apologies if this has already been asked and answered:  

I was interested in understanding what your son believes.  Does he have a desire to be baptized?  Is that desire based on a belief and faith in Jesus — even if it is a childlike belief and faith?

At what point are your concerns actually hindering his nascent faith?  At what point are you no longer “suffer[ing] the little children to come unto [Him]”?

Finally, I wonder if you might also find value in reading points of view from outside our community?  I found This article interesting — as an example.

First, I am not going to stop my son from getting baptized if he wants to.  I asked him how he feels about it, and he said that he wants to get baptized.  I asked him if he understands that that means he is promising God that he will remain active in the church and attend church regularly.  I asked if he wants to go to church every week in order to renew his covenants (which I explained to him), he said "no".  "Do you like church?" I asked.  "No" (at least not the LDS church).  He replied.  

We have attended about 5 different churches as a family now.  His favorite so far is the Community of Christ, interestingly.  Second favorite was the SMCC church in Draper (evangelical).  Third favorite was the UUA church.  Our church is on the bottom of the list for him.   What do kids care about at this age when assessing churches?  How fun and engaging it is.  That's it.  There is no assessment of doctrines, or spiritual consideration.  That is the level of maturity these kids are at.  So, if my son was to be baptized into the LDS church, it would be based on my decision, not his.  Is it fair for me to encourage my child to enter an eternally binding covenant that pretty much marries him to the LDS church for the rest of his life when he doesn't even like it?  

This is the difficult situation I am in.  When children are presented with options, it is clear that baptism into the LDS church is largely based on social conditioning on the part of the parents.  They don't know anything else, or that there are even other options.  I personally have a deep faith in God and Christianity and believe in baptism, I feel less so about the institution of the church now though.  But psychologically, I can't leave the church.   Even thinking about allowing my son to be baptized in a church that he chooses scares the crap out of me.  If he chooses something other than the LDS church, I am afraid that God will be offended.  Not to mention the social distress and drama that would cause in the family and ward!  Yikes!  I don't know how I feel about that, honestly.   I love Mormonism in so many ways, and I can't imagine raising my child in the Community of Christ or as an evangelical.  I don't subscribe to those faiths either.  And he is not old enough to fully understand all of the ramifications of the choice he is making.   That is the really confusing and difficult position I am in, because I know whatever decision he makes will largely be directed by me and my wife (who is in the same place I am in).   I don't feel comfortable baptizing him in a church that is his least favorite and making that decision eternally binding upon him.   These kids simply aren't old enough!  That is more clear to me now than ever before because of the unique position we are in and introducing other churches to him young.  So my son wants to be baptized?  Now what?

Thanks for the link to the article, I will give it a read. 

Edited January 14, 2024 by pogi

[CV75]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Yes, and many who are "unhoused" prefer to stay that way as well.

 

I think that sort of allowance for choices will continue in the Millennium.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

See my response to bluebell. Hopefully that helps. 

It is not as easy to just "drop" and "replace" doctrine and culture that has formed ones reality for a lifetime.  Psychology doesn't have a quick and easy start and stop switch, even if ones cognitive beliefs and perspectives have changed or evolved. 

That is why I think therapy can be helpful (to help the psychology settle over time). See my responses to others that gets into that a bit more.

Posted 4 hours ago Posted 3 hours ago 

 

[Okrahomer]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

I personally have a deep faith in God and Christianity and believe in baptism, I feel less so about the institution of the church now though.

I want to apologize for suggesting that you might hinder your son’s faith.  That was inappropriate and uncharitable.  It’s obvious you are a kind and loving father who wants the best for his son.

I hope your deep faith in God will guide you toward a “solution” that brings peace to both you and your son.

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, CV75 said:

*“When Satan is bound in a single home—when Satan is bound in a single life—the Millennium has already begun in that home, in that life” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 172).

Another example of "SEEING"  in this case, the Millennium, "AS" a direct human experience in real individuals lives.

One principle, two ways to see and apply it.

Is "The Force" the "Holy Ghost"?

Just one more way to communicate to others

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, pogi said:

Is it fair for me to encourage my child to enter an eternally binding covenant that pretty much marries him to the LDS church for the rest of his life when he doesn't even like it?  

Perhaps this is more a literal interpretation than most kids can muster, and so it is not, I think, the way it is usually presented.  I have done a lot of "Bishops Baptism" interviews

I wonder about how many of us in the pre-earth life, would be willing to take on pain, deaths of people we love, being homeless, diseased, and fully understanding the pains as well as the possible joys of earth life, if we would have wanted to experience it at all!

That would be horribly hard!

The savior himself asked to have the cup taken away IF it was the Lord's will.

But can an 8 year old make that decision?   That is your point, and I get it.

But FOR ME it doesn't make sense that the Lord WOULD REQUIRE THAT!!

He KNOWS what it is like to be an 8 year old.

My conclusion would be to be more gentle in the description of the covenant, that he is promising to do his VERY BEST to be good and do the right things.

But I have perhaps overstepped my boundaries- he is not my child, and you know him; I don't!

Edited January 14, 2024 by mfbukowski

[CV75]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Another example of "SEEING"  in this case, the Millennium, "AS" a direct human experience in real individuals lives.

One principle, two ways to see and apply it.

Is "The Force" the "Holy Ghost"?

Just one more way to communicate to others

The Force is the Light of Christ. Obi Wan is a padawan Holy Ghost.

Curly... never mind (lightning)...

[mfbukowski]

Just now, CV75 said:

The Force is the Light of Christ. Obi Wan is a padawan Holy Ghost.

Curly... never mind (lightning)...

If it floats your raft, it's better than drowning !

 

[Tacenda]

changed mind

 

Edited January 14, 2024 by Tacenda

[pogi]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

But I have perhaps overstepped my boundaries- he is not my child, and you know him; I don't!

You haven't over stepped.  I came on here asking for wisdom and insight as to how to approach this.  I am open to any suggestions.  

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

My conclusion would be to be more gentle in the description of the covenant, that he is promising to do his VERY BEST to be good and do the right things.

There is still the issue of which church to join.

If we compare it to buying a consumer product, most people aren't going to buy the first thing someone tries to sell them, especially if it is an expensive or consequential item in some other way.  They are going to read reviews about the product and want to compare it against other products and their prices, return polices, warranties, etc.    I feel like it is important to let our kids have the same opportunity when it comes to religion, especially when we are talking about eternally binding covenants, but not giving them any options.  That just doesn't feel right.   I don't even think kids are capable of making these kinds of decisions at 8.  The religion one joins is perhaps one of the biggest decisions they will make in their life, far more important than any consumer product, yet how many kids are even given an opportunity to weigh their options?  

I personally would like to give my child the opportunity to mature and decide when he is older and competent to make such decisions after spiritually weighing the different options, but then there is going to be the social consequences and pressure he will feel whenever he attends church and he is the only one not baptized.  He will start to feel like an 'other'.   The church is not built to deal with this kind of thing.  It expects people to be all in or all out, and my kid will feel the incredible pressure at too early of an age if he wants to wait to decide.  It just sucks.  It's not right.  Jesus was an adult before getting baptized for crying out loud.  Why do we put so much expectations on families and children?

If I left it 100% entirely up to my child without encouraging him one way or the other, I can guarantee you that he wouldn't choose to be baptized in the LDS church.  He would choose one of the others he likes attending MUCH better.  I don't know how I feel about that.  I don't want him to join some other church, but I don't want him to join our church because of social pressure, either. 

The choice really is the parents choice at this age - what we allow them or strongly encourage them to do.  8 simply is too young to be competent to weigh different options and make a spiritually mature decision on their own based on doctrinal and spiritual understanding. 

Edited January 15, 2024 by pogi

[Tacenda]

30 minutes ago, pogi said:

You haven't over stepped.  I came on here asking for wisdom and insight as to how to approach this.  I am open to any suggestions.  

There is still the issue of which church to join.

If we compare it to buying a consumer product, most people aren't going to buy the first thing someone tries to sell them, especially if it is an expensive or consequential item in some other way.  They are going to read reviews about the product and want to compare it against other products and their prices, return polices, warranties, etc.    I feel like it is important to let our kids have the same opportunity when it comes to religion, especially when we are talking about eternally binding covenants, but not giving them any options.  That just doesn't feel right.   I don't even think kids are capable of making these kinds of decisions at 8.  The religion one joins is perhaps one of the biggest decisions they will make in their life, far more important than any consumer product, yet how many kids are even given an opportunity to weigh their options?  

I personally would like to give my child the opportunity to mature and decide when he is older and competent to make such decisions after spiritually weighing the different options, but then there is going to be the social consequences and pressure he will feel whenever he attends church and he is the only one not baptized.  He will start to feel like an 'other'.   The church is not built to deal with this kind of thing.  It expects people to be all in or all out, and my kid will feel the incredible pressure at too early of an age if he wants to wait to decide.  It just sucks.  It's not right.  Jesus was an adult before getting baptized for crying out loud.  Why do we put so much expectations on families and children?

If I left it 100% entirely up to my child without encouraging him one way or the other, I can guarantee you that he wouldn't choose to be baptized in the LDS church.  He would choose one of the others he likes attending MUCH better.  I don't know how I feel about that.  I don't want him to join some other church, but I don't want him to join our church because of social pressure, either. 

The choice really is the parents choice at this age - what we allow them or strongly encourage them to do.  8 simply is too young to be competent to weigh different options and make a spiritually mature decision on their own based on doctrinal and spiritual understanding. 

I hope your ward is accepting of him just not being baptized until he's sure. And I hope they will not allow him to be an "other". I wonder if you had a talk with his primary teacher/primary president/bishop about this. I wonder if it happens in the church more often than we think. But I hear ya on it being difficult to go to another church once you've been steeped in the LDS faith. I tried attending other churches and realized some are more hard lined on following the Bible word for word practically, and that was a huge turnoff since I don't believe in some of men's teachings being of God. At least the LDS church isn't concrete and will to change on things in the Bible.  

[Tacenda]

On 1/13/2024 at 9:39 AM, Rain said:

I'm so sorry about that.  My sister and I both wore my mom's dress.  I know my daughter wore it as well along with some, if not all, the rest of the granddaughters wore it. I'm not very sentimental, but that was a special thing to us. I'm sorry you didn't get that choice.

 

Thanks Rain. I think maybe they worried the dress would float up or something, not sure why they changed it. But it would have been cool for sure.

[CV75]

23 minutes ago, pogi said:

You haven't over stepped.  I came on here asking for wisdom and insight as to how to approach this.  I am open to any suggestions.  

There is still the issue of which church to join.

If we compare it to buying a consumer product, most people aren't going to buy the first thing someone tries to sell them, especially if it is an expensive or consequential item in some other way.  They are going to read reviews about the product and want to compare it against other products and their prices, return polices, warranties, etc.    I feel like it is important to let our kids have the same opportunity when it comes to religion, especially when we are talking about eternally binding covenants, but not giving them any options.  That just doesn't feel right.   I don't even think kids are capable of making these kinds of decisions at 8.  The religion one joins is perhaps one of the biggest decisions they will make in their life, far more important than any consumer product, yet how many kids are even given an opportunity to weigh their options?  

I personally would like to give my child the opportunity to mature and decide when he is older and competent to make such decisions after spiritually weighing the different options, but then there is going to be the social consequences and pressure he will feel whenever he attends church and he is the only one not baptized.  He will start to feel like an 'other'.   The church is not built to deal with this kind of thing.  It expects people to be all in or all out, and my kid will feel the incredible pressure at too early of an age if he wants to wait to decide.  It just sucks.  It's not right.  Jesus was an adult before getting baptized for crying out loud.  Why do we put so much expectations on families and children?

If I left it 100% entirely up to my child without encouraging him one way or the other, I can guarantee you that he wouldn't choose to be baptized in the LDS church.  He would choose one of the others he likes attending MUCH better.  I don't know how I feel about that.  I don't want him to join some other church, but I don't want him to join our church because of social pressure, either. 

The choice really is the parents choice at this age - what we allow them or strongly encourage them to do.  8 simply is too young to be competent to weigh different options and make a spiritually mature decision on their own based on doctrinal and spiritual understanding. 

Since you are looking for wisdom and insight on a very personal matter, I will try to contribute to the pool, and maybe you can cobble together some actual wisdom and insight from it:

You are afraid of leaving the Church you lack confidence in, and of letting your son join it or any other church, and of his making a mistake if he chooses a church other than the one you no longer have confidence in but for which you retain an affinity for family and other sentimental reasons. You are afraid of what your family and ward members will think, say and how they will treat you in various scenarios of baptism and Church attendance, or a delay, non-attendance, or involvement with another church(es). The issue isn't that your son isn't old enough to be baptized or to decide to be, but that you are afraid on at least four fronts, each with up to eight decision points -- too many permutations!

Your fear affects your actions and provides a kind of direction for your son. He must pick up on your anxiety, not just on the point of his baptism but what you've been going through personally. Maybe you can tell him that church participation, including anyone's baptism, is a family activity, and you and your wife are still working on what you want to do. If he pushes back (in which case he may be ready after all!), we can discuss Plan B.

It is up to you as to whether a professional approach is warranted to get at the root of resolving your fears, depending on how severe they are to you.

[Calm]

9 hours ago, pogi said:

There is a deep rooted belief that leaving the church is the same as turning your back on God.  

I can see where this could come from in the way some leaders and others teach beliefs and doctrines (for example the use of the term damnation for any separation from God), but it seems contrary to me to the fundamental structure of the plan of salvation. How can you accept any glory, even those described as lesser lights if you have turned your back on God?

Rejecting certain ideas about God is no more rejecting God imo than is turning down some of the offerings at a feast starving.  Perhaps you miss out on the sweetest fruits (perhaps not), but you don’t need to go hungry. 

Edited January 15, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

9 hours ago, pogi said:

I would guess that those who come from a strong and deep faith/trust in the church have a much harder time in the transition.

I see myself as having a deep faith and trust in the Church, but also being realistic about the limitations of the Church. It is not God, but one of his tools to help us progress.  I don’t see it likely if for some reason I saw the Church as too off course to help me anymore seek God that I would see myself as also rejecting God. 

[MustardSeed]

If in any way you’re trying to avoid him being resentful later in life- THERE IS NO ESCAPING IT 😂😭