Eternal Covenants/Baptism at 8 years old

[teddyaware]

20 hours ago, pogi said:

My son is approaching 8 years old, and I have some concerns and am in search of some wisdom to help me through this in how to approach it.

To help explain where I am coming from, let me share a quick funny but true story. 

My son, while at the dinner table, stood up a few weeks ago and told us that he needs to tell us something "important".  He said that he couldn't tell us while looking at us so he went into his room and wanted to talk to us behind closed door, because it was too sensitive for him.   We were naturally curious and somewhat concerned about what he might tell us that he was so afraid to tell us to our face.   He eventually got up the courage and said, "Mom and Dad, I got married".   My wife and I looked at each other with puzzled but amused looks on our faces and said "congratulations, who's the lucky girl?" 

My boy "married" his best friend (a girl) during lunch break.  He gave her one of my daughter's plastic toy rings.   She said yes.  They sealed it with a kiss on her "hand, forehead, and lips". 
 

This just highlights the level of maturity these kids are at in understanding forever promises.  As cute as this is, and as real as his commitment to this cute little girl may be, we all know that he is too young to understand the gravity of such covenants that are associated with things like marriage.   I look at baptism in many ways like marriage to the Church, as that is intricately tied to the covenants entered with God.   Aren't these kids too young and inexperienced to understand the gravity and eternal consequence of such promises?  If we were to compare baptism to a marriage, baptisms for 8-year-olds who are raised in the church are more akin to arranged marriages.  Sure, we let them decide, but my boy still believes in Santa Claus - they are going to believe whatever we tell them accompanied with a strong desire to please their parents and church leaders and to fit in with their friends who were baptized.  There is an overwhelming social conditioning without, I think, the emotional and cognitive capacity for genuine informed consent.  They don't know anything else!  They don't have capacity to explore or really understand other options.  They don't really understand that they are going to be warned about what happens to "covenant breakers" for the rest of their lives.  They are usually only given the soft version and blessings associated with baptism in general, but do not understand the consequences for violation of such covenants.    Once in, there is no out without the associated promised consequences about covenant breakers.

I don't think my kid is old enough and mature enough to be informed and make such weighty decisions, and so I am torn.  It seems like a person is old enough to get baptized when they are old enough to get married on their own.

Then there is this: 

Help me understand why 8-year-olds need to be baptized "for the remission of sins"?  Don't they have a clean slate already up to this point? 

That is a more minor issue I have, but still something I think about.  

Any thoughts?

The answer to your question is very basic and simple. In the book of Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord testifies that at around eight years of age children “begin to become accountable” for their actions before him, meaning that they become fledgling moral agents who are capable of committing sin and susceptible to the temptations of the devil.  Due to this momentously significant and impactful transition from a state of unaccountable innocence, to state of sin-prone moral accountability before God, it would be contrary to the justice of God to deprive any of the new entrants into this fallen world of temptation and sinful behavior to be deprived of baptism for a remission of their sins, and the gift of the Holy Ghost as a means to strengthen and fortify them against the temptations to commit sin. It could only be an unjust and unmerciful pretender to the throne of God who would be callous and hardhearted enough to abandon morally accountable youth to the suffering and misery produced by their sins without a hope of forgiveness and reconciliation with God.

The whole process has got to start somewhere, and by revelation the Lord has revealed that that starting point is at or around eight years of age for children who are developing normally. It must also be understood that the parents of children in Zion are under a different set of obligations before God than those who are outside of the restored church and its sacred covenants.

 

Edited January 12, 2024 by teddyaware

[bluebell]

31 minutes ago, Calm said:

No one really understands the covenants until one lives them, just like one can’t really comprehend what marriage is or commitment to a job even until one experiences the influences/pressures and choices that come with that life.

Same for becoming a parent.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

would be contrary to the justice of God to deprive any of the new entrants into this fallen world of temptation and sinful behavior to be deprived of baptism for a remission of their sins, and the gift of the Holy Ghost as a means to strengthen and fortify them against the temptations to commit sin. It could only be an unjust and unmerciful pretender to the throne of God who would be callous and hardhearted enough to abandon morally accountable youth to the suffering and misery produced by their sins without a hope of forgiveness and reconciliation with God.

That doesn’t make sense to me because God has allowed a world to exist where the vast, vast majority of 8 year olds are deprived of this opportunity through no fault of their own. By your reasoning, this makes God callous and unmerciful. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Same for becoming a parent.

Oh yeah. Even as a parent, I don’t naturally understand other parents’ experiences that well, such as a child with a terminal illness even though my daughter has a life threatening one (diabetes) and parents whose adult kids are self supporting may be clueless about what my experience as a parent whose child will likely never leave the nest is like, my never really having the chance to turn off mother mode.  But at least there are enough similar experiences I believe relatively decent understanding can occur with enough interest, attention and effort to empathize. But shared experience is the foundation of understanding the other’s experiences imo and often that can’t come without actually living a very similar life. 

Edited January 12, 2024 by Calm

[bluebell]

Just now, meandhim said:

I may be getting into the discussion late, and maybe this was covered eariler. 

At the age of 8 (or so) is a child able to fully understand the teachings of the Bible (and other instructive books) to be able to be fully responsible for their actions? 

Also, are they not relying on the teachings of parents at that age, that may not be correct? 

Our kids were reading the Bible at that age, however I don't think they fully understood until later. 

 

 

Don't put up graphic naked pictures of yourself and another person in the social hall and then come on here and try to have a discussion as if you've haven't posted porn to this site blatantly against the rules.  It's disrespectful.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

The answer to your question is very basic and simple. In the book of Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord testifies that at around eight years of age children “begin to become accountable” for their actions before him, meaning that they become fledgling moral agents who are capable of committing sin and susceptible to the temptations of the devil.  Due to this momentously significant and impactful transition from a state of unaccountable innocence, to state of sin-prone moral accountability before God, it would be contrary to the justice of God to deprive any of the new entrants into this fallen world of temptation and sinful behavior to be deprived of baptism for a remission of their sins, and the gift of the Holy Ghost as a means to strengthen and fortify them against the temptations to commit sin. It could only be an unjust and unmerciful pretender to the throne of God who would be callous and hardhearted enough to abandon morally accountable youth to the suffering and misery produced by their sins without a hope of forgiveness and reconciliation with God.

The whole process has got to start somewhere, and by revelation the Lord has revealed that that starting point is at or around eight years of age for children who are developing normally. It must also be understood that the parents of children in Zion are under a different set of obligations before God than those who are outside of the restored church and its sacred covenants.

 

Did you just call God an “unjust and unmerciful pretender to the throne of God”?

Wow!

[Pyreaux]

20 minutes ago, meandhim said:

Hi bluebell and thanks for the posting. 

Since you are disrespected by the human body that God gave to each one of us as a gift, the pictures will be removed. 

If a friend gave you a painting that they did and then came to visit you to find it hidden under a dirty rag, do you think they would be insulted?

The Bible is clear that nudity is not porn and porn is the unnatural acts done while one is naked, such as having sex with family members. 

I would love to hear a discussion about our original question. 

No one need disagree to explain your error, there are many who don't want to see your nudity, it's extremely rude to impose your nudity on non-nudists. This shouldn't surprise you, as it violates the rules of most online platforms. It was simply gratuitous and completely unnecessary. You could have had your debate, but now moderators are probably going to ban you for that stunt. You hindered your cause more than you helped.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Don't put up graphic naked pictures of yourself and another person in the social hall and then come on here and try to have a discussion as if you've haven't posted porn to this site blatantly against the rules.  It's disrespectful.

Agree, I reported it to the mods, it's very sick to post the photos on this discussion forum. 

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, meandhim said:

You maybe correct Pyreaux, however those same young people would wonder why the adults on the forum can't defend their belief that nudity is wrong. And in doing so, they would question the truthfulness of the Bible, we want them to follow.  Coming from someone who protests the false teachings of some in the public schools, believe me, that is the source of the real porn. 

Since it seems that the pictures cannot be deleted, I would think that those who are disrespected would be best to avoid looking. 

They'll be deleted as soon as a mod shows up, and you will likely be banned at the same time since that is the mods MO when it comes to porn.

 

[bluebell]

26 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Agree, I reported it to the mods, it's very sick to post the photos on this discussion forum. 

It's very disingenuous at the very least, since they agreed to follow rules that they have now completely ignored.  It's no more appropriate for that poster to come into a private space and post nude pictures of themselves than it would be for one of us to go into their private space and demand they put their clothes on.

How does someone get to be a senior citizen without figuring that out?  It's really weird.

[pogi]

18 hours ago, Calm said:

I think 8 is more about symbolism and much less about being ready to make an eternal covenant.  I don’t believe any mortal is ready for an eternal covenant because of the amount of knowledge and experience we lack or at least don’t have access to because of the veil;  the only thing we are really qualified for is to trust God and an 8 year old is probably better at that than a 30 year old.  What we are doing here with baptism annd confirmation imo is both practice and a way that allows God to bless us with the Holy Ghost.

I love the symbolism of baptism.  I love the idea of rites of passage.  I think it helps build a sense of purpose.  There is so much about baptism that I love, and if that is all it was about - no problem.   But this eternally binding marriage like relationship to the church thing has me concerned.  It doesn't feel honest to baptize a socially conditioned child, then hold it over their head for the rest of their lives with fear inducing warnings for breaking covenants they never were capable of understanding in the first place.  It's no big deal for those who never question their covenants but for those who do, it can feel like a trap.  Easy in, but with no exit from the consequences of an eternal covenant they made after being socially conditioned at 8 years old.  

 

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, pogi said:

It doesn't feel honest to baptize a socially conditioned child, then hold it over their head for the rest of their lives with fear inducing warnings for breaking covenants they never were capable of understanding in the first place. 

Doesn’t have to be that way of course.  We had a talk with our daughter about what the covenants meant to us vs her in the past since she first shared she didn’t have any faith in the gospel and she hasn’t reported any worry in that area.  She stated she did it all because it was what was expected, but my memory of events was it was more than just what we wanted to hear from her as it wasn’t like she wasn’t willing to push when she disagreed even when young or didn’t want something and she was very excited because it was going to be her brother baptizing her.  Though I don’t believe she viewed what she was doing in the same way as I did at age 8. 

[Calm]

58 minutes ago, meandhim said:

would wonder why the adults on the forum can't defend their belief that nudity is wrong

Who has said nudity is wrong?  It is a time and place thing.

Would you start taking your clothes off in the middle of a conversation in a public place, say the lobby of a hotel without asking if it was okay with those around you?  If not, why be comfortable doing the equivalent here?

[InCognitus]

4 minutes ago, meandhim said:

hi Calm

Honestly, yes we would be comfortable doing that if the rest of society accepted it and didn't act like the world was coming to an end. 

I myself don't like people using nasty language in public, but these days society accepts it, so I just choose not to stay around and listen to it. 

On the other hand, if my husband and I started having sex in that public lobby, now that would be considered porn, and we would believe the same. 

King David is naked for everyone to see and all Christians respect that. 

Except you are just trolling this board with photos you've pulled from the internet, fully knowing it would cause a commotion on a board such as this.  Tell us who you really are.

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, meandhim said:

King David is naked for everyone to see and all Christians respect that. 

I highly doubt they would if he chose to do it walking down Main Street these days nor was he naked for the purpose of being naked, which you putting up naked pictures in this forum is assuredly for that purpose.

Speaking from the perspective of a family environment with a dad who was quite comfortable with his body and who deserved to be, lol, great genetics there, I only wish I got more than the large skull from his side of the family, as well as someone who swims for exercise and has therefore seen lots of men with enough clothes off it’s not hard to imagine the rest and whose mother was an artist so no stranger to nudity in art, my opinion (sorry guys) is aesthetically speaking there are few men whose bodies don’t look better with some clothes on.  Proportions and all are so easily off.  I am not biased, same goes for women.

Edited January 13, 2024 by Calm

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

it's extremely rude to impose your nudity on non-nudists. 

Not to mention never-nudes

 

[MiserereNobis]

Exciting times!

What would make this whole thing better is if the guy was Ahab...

[MustardSeed]

8 minutes ago, meandhim said:

LOL

Hmmm.  Interesting reaction for a newcomer. 

[MustardSeed]

12 minutes ago, meandhim said:

We would really like this thread to get back to the original topic instead of nudity silliness. 

Baptism is a much more important subject for us all. 

If our original thread doesn't get bounced from the forum, those who want to discuss the public nudity subject, you are invited to the original thread. 

Just be advised that we are naked in the thread but by now most everyone has seen what we have under our clothes so there is no more to see so maybe we can get to the real discussion. 

I don’t trust you have posted even in this thread in good faith.  

[bluebell]

47 minutes ago, meandhim said:

Especially since Bluebell has reminded all of us that we are senior citizens LOL. 

Anytime you need reminders on how common courtesy works, I'm here.   

[gopher]

Dang, I was going to make a serious comment here, but now I'm confused that I may have accidentally gone to the wrong website?

[Raingirl]

41 minutes ago, meandhim said:

We would really like this thread to get back to the original topic instead of nudity silliness. 

Baptism is a much more important subject for us all. 

If our original thread doesn't get bounced from the forum, those who want to discuss the public nudity subject, you are invited to the original thread. 

Just be advised that we are naked in the thread but by now most everyone has seen what we have under our clothes so there is no more to see so maybe we can get to the real discussion. 

Pathetic attention seeking. What a miserable life. 

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

I love the symbolism of baptism.  I love the idea of rites of passage.  I think it helps build a sense of purpose.  There is so much about baptism that I love, and if that is all it was about - no problem.   But this eternally binding marriage like relationship to the church thing has me concerned.  It doesn't feel honest to baptize a socially conditioned child, then hold it over their head for the rest of their lives with fear inducing warnings for breaking covenants they never were capable of understanding in the first place.  It's no big deal for those who never question their covenants but for those who do, it can feel like a trap.  Easy in, but with no exit from the consequences of an eternal covenant they made after being socially conditioned at 8 years old.  

 

Maybe it's because my dad was more a Jack Mormon, but I really didn't have these notions going on in my head so much, other than I worried I drove the Holy Ghost away when I did things wrong. I did worry a lot about that, but not like some people I've known. But my parents were more chill and that may have helped. Maybe if your son wants to be baptized, you could speak with him about your concerns. 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

I love the symbolism of baptism.  I love the idea of rites of passage.  I think it helps build a sense of purpose.  There is so much about baptism that I love, and if that is all it was about - no problem.   But this eternally binding marriage like relationship to the church thing has me concerned.  It doesn't feel honest to baptize a socially conditioned child, then hold it over their head for the rest of their lives with fear inducing warnings for breaking covenants they never were capable of understanding in the first place.  It's no big deal for those who never question their covenants but for those who do, it can feel like a trap.  Easy in, but with no exit from the consequences of an eternal covenant they made after being socially conditioned at 8 years old.  

 

According to D&C 130, sociality is an eternal principle, and we cannot have Zion (or a Church of the Firstborn) without a united society of families. Social conditioning in the gospel context is one environmental aspect of spiritual development operating in tandem with the more personal aspects, and as a child matures, he can assess where one begins and the other ends, and where they are functionally integrated. Even Joseph Smith had significant social conditioning from his family (his father was quite the visionary man) both before and after his more personal experiences of First Vision and Moroni’s visit(s) and see where those led! This conditioning, both social and personal, was evident in how he behaved and explained his behavior during his operation at seven years old.

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, meandhim said:

You maybe correct Pyreaux, however those same young people would wonder why the adults on the forum can't defend their belief that nudity is wrong. And in doing so, they would question the truthfulness of the Bible, we want them to follow.  Coming from someone who protests the false teachings of some in the public schools, believe me, that is the source of the real porn. 

Since it seems that the pictures cannot be deleted, I would think that those who are disrespected would be best to avoid looking. 

Those pictures will be gone when you are banned along with your post. I feel for your kid's school, (you mentioned something about it in another post), I feel for your neighbors and I feel for your kids. Our nakedness is clothed for a reason, believe me.

Edited January 13, 2024 by Tacenda