Eternal Covenants/Baptism at 8 years old

[Calm]

21 hours ago, bluebell said:

think it would completely depend on his level of belief/knowledge about the gospel before he decided to leave.  

And the depth of his commitment and how he got to that point (did God provide quite a few hands on opportunities for him to experience the Spirit or was he left mostly on his own) and what caused him to put the covenant aside.

[bsjkki]

On 1/14/2024 at 8:03 PM, MustardSeed said:

If in any way you’re trying to avoid him being resentful later in life- THERE IS NO ESCAPING IT 😂😭

So true. 

[bsjkki]

On 1/14/2024 at 9:08 PM, pogi said:

I know my kid would choose the one with the cool band and fun games any day of the week!

I went to the churches with the cool band and fun games. I knew which church I preferred very young. There was a difference and I felt it every week...even though I didn't have friends, fun games or rock bands. I think children are capable of feeling the spirit. I think children can have sincere beliefs and receive answers to their prayers. 

[Calm]

On 1/15/2024 at 4:14 PM, pogi said:

At some point they are going to understand their covenants, but by then it will be too late.  They can't take it back.  Now that they understand it, they are bound to it.  The opportunity to choose if they want to enter the covenant based on a mature understanding was stolen from them because they entered before they even understood what they were promising.

That is if you assume God holds them to the current level of understanding based on the commitment to what was essentially a different covenant if they truly lacked enough understanding about the covenant God offered.  If they come to adulthood and with their adult, mature understanding of the covenants realize they made a mistake that they couldn’t recognize before that time, why would a compassionate God be so rigid, so inflexible, so unloving not to forgive them the error they made in guessing they would be fully committed instead of the more realistic rejection of the covenants they actually experience.

I tend to focus a lot on the massive hint God gave us about how his justice works in section 19.

Quote

For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—

11 eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the acommandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;

14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;

God is living and just, endless and consistent.  Why would he hold someone culpable for something they did not actually choose?

God is not some merchant who creates contracts to maximize his own benefits and minimize his own loses, who hides things in small print so he can pull them out as a gotcha when the contract signer starts to feel the real weight of the burden of the contract, all those hidden fees and penalties, making sure that he gets what he wants no matter how it might hurt the covenant maker.

What good does it do God to trick us into exaltation?  He only “wins” if in the end we accept that his love and glory are so desirable to experience we are willing to put ourselves completely into his hands and o become one with him.  He’s not going to have many making that choice if he is petty and punishing people for not understanding.

It is not just reason, but doctrinal.  People are not judged by law they do not have, only the law we do have.  And how do we have the law of God?  When it’s written on our hearts, when it’s become a part of our being.

 That is unlikely to occur at baptism for minors…at least not to the full extent that someone who has been faithful over their long life trying their best to live commandments has the law written on their hearts.  What they have on their hearts, what they are judge on is probably limited to ‘God loves me and wants me to be with him and help others to be with him too and I need to do what he asks me to do…and if I don’t, I won’t be able to be with him anymore’.

Quote

 I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people” (Jeremiah 31:33)

Quote

And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

God makes covenants with us for our good, so we can have joy with him eternally.  God has what he needs, the covenants exist for our benefit.  Why would God turn them into excuses to torture someone who does not deserve it?

The consequences of breaking the covenants are natural imo, a loss of the gifts God bestowed on us when we accepted his covenant, including the companionship of the Spirit they were blessed with as part of the covenant.  Also the loss of the opportunities that the covenant provides, such as the more obvious one of no longer being able to attend the temple.  

From a faithful POV, imo a covenant breaker is in basically the same situation as someone who never made the covenant in the first place.  They have lost the privileges that came to them through the covenant.  That may be quite painful for someone who had deep spiritual experiences, but it’s not because God is hurting him, but because he has rejected that which once gave him true and deep peace and comfort (as I said this is from a faithful, believing POV) and it is the loss that is painful.

[pogi]

56 minutes ago, Calm said:

Isn’t that up to God to decide?  He is allowed to forgive when he wants, be merciful as he sees fits as well as justly punishing.

Yes, I agree with that, but my personal experience growing up in the church is that the church uses our covenants as a fear tactic to keep us on the covenant path.  Not exclusively, but enough to where it is really messing with my right now.   It is REALLY hard to believe that God will be merciful when you have been warned your entire life about covenant breakers and breaking promises to God.   We are taught that while all sin, those who repent and return to the covenant path we be protected from the wrath of God.  Others? Not so much.  That path is set in stone at 8, any deviators who decide not to return?  Be very afraid!

[pogi]

58 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I went to the churches with the cool band and fun games. I knew which church I preferred very young. There was a difference and I felt it every week...even though I didn't have friends, fun games or rock bands. I think children are capable of feeling the spirit. I think children can have sincere beliefs and receive answers to their prayers. 

A lot depends on your teachers in primary.  My kid's teachers suck, to be very frank.  It is really hard to feel the spirit when you have disengaged teachers that call him a different name every week and basically sit them down and make them color boring pictures every week (my boy hates coloring).   My kid is also a very physically active learner.  He has to be moving.  Plus, he is visually impaired.  He can't see all the cute little visual aids in singing time and follow along like everyone else.  We have let the primary presidency know our concerns.  Nothing changes.  He is an active kid that is being forced to sit in a chair and can't even see what is going on around him.  That would drive me crazy too.  

I think kids can feel the spirit too and receive answers to prayers.  I don't believe that if every child had equal exposure to several different churches, that they will all feel impressed to join the LDS church.  It just doesn't work like that.  I wonder if parents really, really trust their kids enough to make that kind of decision on their own without heavy social conditioning from their parents.  I doubt most parents trust their kids that much.  We just like to say and think that it is their choice based on an informed and competent decision...it really isn't most of the time. 

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

Yes, I agree with that, but my personal experience growing up in the church is that the church uses our covenants as a fear tactic to keep us on the covenant path.  Not exclusively, but enough to where it is really messing with my right now.   It is REALLY hard to believe that God will be merciful when you have been warned your entire life about covenant breakers and breaking promises to God.   We are taught that while all sin, those who repent and return to the covenant path we be protected from the wrath of God.  Others? Not so much.  That path is set in stone at 8, any deviators who decide not to return?  Be very afraid!

So what is exactly your issue?  Protecting your kids from this?  I suspect it is easier than you appear to think since they are around you a lot more than at Church.

That may be a view that is a result of my startling success of stopping the cycle of body shaming that my family indulged in (justifying it based on fears for health, but looking back my parents’ reactions were really overdone for the amount of health risk….though they did very well with dispensing with the obsession with status and racism both grandparents had).  My sister was shocked, almost offended even that my daughter doesn’t bother to remember her weight, only weighs herself at the doctors. It seems unnatural and probably risky to my sister.  Given it was not only a family habit, but something that is a constant presence in media, advertising, games, etc, I am rather proud of that effort.  I have never once mentioned concerns about her weight in her presence or made any negative comments about her body and drew attention to unhealthy or manipulative images or comments in media early on so she could recognize what was going on and choose to ignore them as much as possible….which apparently was a lot.  I had the advantage of her becoming reclusive by the time she was 15, so peer pressure wasn’t really a factor, but since her ‘social life’ became the unrealistic, photoshopped, idealized, etc media images, that became a big concern of mine.  At least with peers while she would have been exposed to their worries and obsessions, she could observe for herself how the so called ideal is unhealthy and the more natural just works better.

All that was to convey the message that if you consciously work to convey one message and to counteract another, as a parent you have a very good chance of balancing the negative and along the way teaching your children to be more critically aware of their surroundings and how people are acting around them, which is the best protection one can teach imo…though giving them the habit of wearing seat belts takes much less time.

One thing I have learned is if you are trying to teach fearlessness, better not try to do so through fear.  If you instruct your kids telling them you worry about them, chances are a lot of worry by them will get attached to the subject (seen it in my family and others…in trying to remove unhealthy behaviour, they created new unhealthy behaviour).  The best way to teach confidence and peace is to show confidence and peace.  I am not saying pretend you have it if you don’t, rather find those places of peace and confidence you have and get in that mode when you are intending to work on the concern with them.  Sincere intensity may not be helpful either…again from experience.

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, pogi said:

He is an active kid that is being forced to sit in a chair and can't even see what is going on around him.  That would drive me crazy too

Is there a ward member that gets it?  Maybe ask them to volunteer to teach his class or maybe any others having similar difficulties or volunteer yourself. I did that a couple of times when I saw kids struggling and my offer was gratefully accepted.

Edited January 18, 2024 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

Why would God punish people at all, who were trying to do their best?

What good does it do for him?

At the age of 8, especially!?

You steal a candy bar, so what? You fall off your bike and scratch your knee (or break a bone) and decide that God made you fall as punishment?

Is that supposed to teach you something?  How are you to even see a connection between stealing the candy and falling off the bike?

What kind of loving father does that?

I have NEVER understood how sinning creates some kind of  "debt" that now has earned punisment to somehow "balance" it?

What is the "IT"?

It's like a bank of merits and de-merits?

We actually had that in my religious high school- you talk in class or mess around, and you get "points" which were ACTUALLY TOTALED monthly and had consequences like cleaning erasers or whatever.

Too many demerits and eventually you could actually be suspended or expelled from the school.

When you went to "confession" and told the priest what you did, he might tell you to say prayers: "two Our Fathers" or "Three Hail Marys" as your penance.

Or really BAD stuff, like fornication might get you a few rosaries to say; each rosary is like 50 "Hail Marys".

I guess somehow that creates enough good energy to balance to bad energy? 

But repeating prayers as a PUNISHMENT??

Good idea? What associations are being made?

Anyway, this seems similar to the point being made here- fear of the punishment because you were too young to make a promise to always be a good boy.

I cannot wrap my mind around it.

I don't think that's the way God works.

That kind of punishment doesn't TEACH because you never know if you would have fallen off the bike anyway.

But a pattern of natural consequences CAN work.

You steal an ATM, go to jail.  Direct natural consequences show you are on a bad path.

Not possible in this situation.

The kid's too young, the connection between the "sin" and punishment, is too vague IF there IS actual "punishment".

 

[mfbukowski]

58 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think kids can feel the spirit too and receive answers to prayers.  I don't believe that if every child had equal exposure to several different churches, that they will all feel impressed to join the LDS church.  It just doesn't work like that.  I wonder if parents really, really trust their kids enough to make that kind of decision on their own without heavy social conditioning from their parents.  I doubt most parents trust their kids that much.  We just like to say and think that it is their choice based on an informed and competent decision...it really isn't most of the time. 

Yes!! Agree!! 

So don't worry about it! 

He "promises to be good" but repentance is always there!

He's got to learn that he can repent by eliminating sin over time!!

THAT will work, it has for millions!

Look at Apostle Paul! He admits to sins that are seemingly always there, yet he was still working on them!

2 Cor 12:

6 " For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong "

Edited January 18, 2024 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Why would God punish people at all, who were trying to do their best?

What good does it do for him?

This, a thousand, million times this…

Quote

I have NEVER understood how sinning creates some kind of  "debt" that now has earned punisment to somehow "balance" it?

God as accountant never made sense to me either.

Edited January 18, 2024 by Calm

[bsjkki]

In some ways this reminds me of the controversy over snow days. The schools follow their policies and procedures and either grant snow days or not. Sometimes, parents have been really mad that the school has not called a snow day. 'It's not safe.' 'Its' too cold.' 'How dare they not call a snow day.'  

Parents...you are in charge. You can make the call. If it's unsafe to drive, stay home. Excuse your kid. Don't drive. Take the power back that you have. When I was a young mom, I would complain about certain expectations the schools had. As an old mom, I told the teachers what we would do and what we wouldn't do. I wouldn't get mad but I would let them know it was an unreasonable demand and we would do things in a way that worked for our situation. It took me longer to figure this out with church expectations. Be prepared to take the consequences though. You can't choose those. The 5th grade teacher had unreasonable reading demands; I told my child to take the bad grade. They then wanted to ban her from the field trip, I got involved and that did not happen. Sometimes, being a self-advocate is called for. 

If you don't feel good about having your child baptized at 8, let them decide or don't support it. The church is there to teach gospel teaching and principles. It's the job of the church. If you think there are too many activities or your don't like camp or FSY, don't send your kids. (Better yet, let them decide.) If you think it unreasonable to have children challenged to read the Book of Mormon, New Testament and Old testament at the same time...pick one or do none. It is your choice. I am not a ministering sister right now. I am not up for it. I don't expect the program to not exist but choose not to participate at this time.

You can't control the quality of the teacher in your child's primary class. Do you know how hard it is to even find primary teachers these days? They are in class for 22 minutes. Either sit with them in the hall, leave after Sacrament meeting etc or realize that teaching your kids the gospel is up to you. Because it is. It doesn't sound like his teacher is exerting undue pressure or fear tactics if all they do is color. 

I was a very rule abiding person and it took me awhile to realize that one size does not fit all...even at church. Personally, I love the commandments. I wish all my kids loved the commandments too. The church's job is to help kids learn them and keep them and repent when they fall short. The church should do each step of this with love. Some do this well and others don't. Some Bishops should choose love over anger or guilt or all the other things warned of in the D&C.

We are in a ward not in our official boundaries because I was done. It was the right choice. I had no issues moving my records. We are all adults and do choose our path. It's up to you to help your child interpret the messages he learns at church, school and everywhere else in a healthy way. 

 

 

[bluebell]

21 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

In some ways this reminds me of the controversy over snow days. The schools follow their policies and procedures and either grant snow days or not. Sometimes, parents have been really mad that the school has not called a snow day. 'It's not safe.' 'Its' too cold.' 'How dare they not call a snow day.'  

Parents...you are in charge. You can make the call. If it's unsafe to drive, stay home. Excuse your kid. Don't drive. Take the power back that you have. When I was a young mom, I would complain about certain expectations the schools had. As an old mom, I told the teachers what we would do and what we wouldn't do. I wouldn't get mad but I would let them know it was an unreasonable demand and we would do things in a way that worked for our situation. It took me longer to figure this out with church expectations. Be prepared to take the consequences though. You can't choose those. The 5th grade teacher had unreasonable reading demands; I told my child to take the bad grade. They then wanted to ban her from the field trip, I got involved and that did not happen. Sometimes, being a self-advocate is called for. 

If you don't feel good about having your child baptized at 8, let them decide or don't support it. The church is there to teach gospel teaching and principles. It's the job of the church. If you think there are too many activities or your don't like camp or FSY, don't send your kids. (Better yet, let them decide.) If you think it unreasonable to have children challenged to read the Book of Mormon, New Testament and Old testament at the same time...pick one or do none. It is your choice. I am not a ministering sister right now. I am not up for it. I don't expect the program to not exist but choose not to participate at this time.

You can't control the quality of the teacher in your child's primary class. Do you know how hard it is to even find primary teachers these days? They are in class for 22 minutes. Either sit with them in the hall, leave after Sacrament meeting etc or realize that teaching your kids the gospel is up to you. Because it is. It doesn't sound like his teacher is exerting undue pressure or fear tactics if all they do is color. 

I was a very rule abiding person and it took me awhile to realize that one size does not fit all...even at church. Personally, I love the commandments. I wish all my kids loved the commandments too. The church's job is to help kids learn them and keep them and repent when they fall short. The church should do each step of this with love. Some do this well and others don't. Some Bishops should choose love over anger or guilt or all the other things warned of in the D&C.

We are in a ward not in our official boundaries because I was done. It was the right choice. I had no issues moving my records. We are all adults and do choose our path. It's up to you to help your child interpret the messages he learns at church, school and everywhere else in a healthy way. 

 

 

Beautifully said.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

In some ways this reminds me of the controversy over snow days. The schools follow their policies and procedures and either grant snow days or not. Sometimes, parents have been really mad that the school has not called a snow day. 'It's not safe.' 'Its' too cold.' 'How dare they not call a snow day.'  

Parents...you are in charge. You can make the call. If it's unsafe to drive, stay home. Excuse your kid. Don't drive. Take the power back that you have. When I was a young mom, I would complain about certain expectations the schools had. As an old mom, I told the teachers what we would do and what we wouldn't do. I wouldn't get mad but I would let them know it was an unreasonable demand and we would do things in a way that worked for our situation. It took me longer to figure this out with church expectations. Be prepared to take the consequences though. You can't choose those. The 5th grade teacher had unreasonable reading demands; I told my child to take the bad grade. They then wanted to ban her from the field trip, I got involved and that did not happen. Sometimes, being a self-advocate is called for. 

If you don't feel good about having your child baptized at 8, let them decide or don't support it. The church is there to teach gospel teaching and principles. It's the job of the church. If you think there are too many activities or your don't like camp or FSY, don't send your kids. (Better yet, let them decide.) If you think it unreasonable to have children challenged to read the Book of Mormon, New Testament and Old testament at the same time...pick one or do none. It is your choice. I am not a ministering sister right now. I am not up for it. I don't expect the program to not exist but choose not to participate at this time.

You can't control the quality of the teacher in your child's primary class. Do you know how hard it is to even find primary teachers these days? They are in class for 22 minutes. Either sit with them in the hall, leave after Sacrament meeting etc or realize that teaching your kids the gospel is up to you. Because it is. It doesn't sound like his teacher is exerting undue pressure or fear tactics if all they do is color. 

I was a very rule abiding person and it took me awhile to realize that one size does not fit all...even at church. Personally, I love the commandments. I wish all my kids loved the commandments too. The church's job is to help kids learn them and keep them and repent when they fall short. The church should do each step of this with love. Some do this well and others don't. Some Bishops should choose love over anger or guilt or all the other things warned of in the D&C.

We are in a ward not in our official boundaries because I was done. It was the right choice. I had no issues moving my records. We are all adults and do choose our path. It's up to you to help your child interpret the messages he learns at church, school and everywhere else in a healthy way. 

 

 

I think this is healthy! The other day I read something that had impact on me. It was how someone was depressed and they had a hard time even doing a sink full of dirty dishes, and the advice she got was, just put them in the dishwasher without rinsing and if they don't come out clean start the dishwasher again. Changed the rules a little and how It's what's needed in the immediate moments. And you can break the rules that help you cope with life. Just as you've done, took power back!  

Wanted to edit, if your dishwasher isn't ancient I've found your dishwasher has sensors and it's best not to rinse your dishes, just scrape food off. For those reading this and haven't heard of it, it's a life changer!

@MustardSeedOh dear, ran out of my allotment of posts so I'm editing this. It's actually not good to clean your dishes before putting them in the dishwasher. The dishwasher is made to sensor the food on dishes in order to work the best. I often see how much I can get away with, but not rinsing even skillets but just scraping large food particles. And always amazed how clean my dishes are. Once in awhile it might not do as well, but it's maybe on one or two items at the most. https://www.bhg.com/kitchen/appliances/rinse-dishes-before-dishwasher/#:~:text=By pre-washing%2C not only,to clean the dishes properly.&text=You might think you're,far more water than necessary.

And these, there are several out there:

https://www.cookist.com/5-reasons-why-you-shouldnt-rinse-dishes-before-loading-in-the-dishwasher/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_RgHkuYMKU

 

Edited January 19, 2024 by Tacenda

[MustardSeed]

49 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

it's best not to rinse your dishes, j

Best for the dishes for the person doing it? Interested-