Sad heaven, sad life- that’s a hard sell!

[MustardSeed]

Bridging off the post about the son leaving the church and the parents concern that it will damage the relationship without the commonality of the church… 

Obviously when families follow the program and all of the children are active and all of them go on missions and all of them marry in the temple, there is tremendous joy to be had. It’s a fabulous plan and the promise of the ultimate outcome is nirvana. 
 

The likelihood of this scenario in todays world is low.  The more children you have, I assume the more likely you are to experience a child refusing church life at some point.  (No cfr, just assumptions made from observations.). 
 

I have noticed that parents can get really sad, depressed, frightened, anxious, defensive etc.  As can siblings. Why is this? My opinion is that people fear that they have lost their children. Why do they feel they have lost their children? I assume it’s because they have been told their whole life that families can be together forever unless somebody screws up and then the dream is lost.   My friend disagrees and says she’s never heard of that, that instead God will fulfill his purposes for joy and we will all be fine.  That may be true, however, I disagree that that is what is taught at church. 
 

I think sadness for believing is a really hard sell. Isn’t there a way there can be more joy and more hope when children decide that the church is not for them? It’s my belief that our “beliefs about our beliefs” are what serve to alienate children and parents when children bow out. 
 

Incidentally, I heard a young man talk about how he recently left the Jehovah witness church and how he was excommunicated from his family as a result. Are we not similar? 

[teddyaware]

13 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Bridging off the post about the son leaving the church and the parents concern that it will damage the relationship without the commonality of the church… 

Obviously when families follow the program and all of the children are active and all of them go on missions and all of them marry in the temple, there is tremendous joy to be had. It’s a fabulous plan and the promise of the ultimate outcome is nirvana. 
 

The likelihood of this scenario in todays world is low.  The more children you have, I assume the more likely you are to experience a child refusing church life at some point.  (No cfr, just assumptions made from observations.). 
 

I have noticed that parents can get really sad, depressed, frightened, anxious, defensive etc.  As can siblings. Why is this? My opinion is that people fear that they have lost their children. Why do they feel they have lost their children? I assume it’s because they have been told their whole life that families can be together forever unless somebody screws up and then the dream is lost.   My friend disagrees and says she’s never heard of that, that instead God will fulfill his purposes for joy and we will all be fine.  That may be true, however, I disagree that that is what is taught at church. 
 

I think sadness for believing is a really hard sell. Isn’t there a way there can be more joy and more hope when children decide that the church is not for them? It’s my belief that our “beliefs about our beliefs” are what serve to alienate children and parents when children bow out. 
 

Incidentally, I heard a young man talk about how he recently left the Jehovah witness church and how he was excommunicated from his family as a result. Are we not similar? 

Lehi’s family was utterly torn apart when some of his children rejected Jesus Christ and his gospel. What follows are Nephi’s thoughts on the matter at the time when the family split became irrevocable. His is a message of sadness mingled with great faith and hope. What else should it be?

15 And upon ^athese I ^bwrite the things of my soul, and many of the scriptures which are engraven upon the plates of brass. For my soul ^cdelighteth in the scriptures, and my heart ^dpondereth them, and writeth them for the ^elearning and the profit of my children.

16 Behold, my ^asoul delighteth in the things of the Lord; and my ^bheart pondereth continually upon the things which I have seen and heard.

17 Nevertheless, notwithstanding the great ^agoodness of the Lord, in showing me his great and marvelous works, my heart exclaimeth: O ^bwretched man that I am! Yea, my heart ^csorroweth because of my flesh; my soul grieveth because of mine iniquities.

18 I am encompassed about, because of the temptations and the sins which do so easily ^abeset me.

19 And when I desire to rejoice, my heart groaneth because of my sins; nevertheless, I know in whom I have ^atrusted.

20 My God hath been my ^asupport; he hath led me through mine ^bafflictions in the wilderness; and he hath preserved me upon the waters of the great deep.

21 He hath filled me with his love, even unto the consuming  my flesh.

22 He hath confounded mine ^aenemies, unto the causing of them to quake before me.

23 Behold, he hath heard my cry by day, and he hath given me ^aknowledge by ^bvisions in the night-time.

24 And by day have I waxed bold in mighty ^aprayer before him; yea, my voice have I sent up on high; and angels came down and ministered unto me.

25 And upon the wings of his Spirit hath my body been ^acarried away upon exceedingly high mountains. And mine eyes have beheld great things, yea, even too great for man; therefore I was bidden that I should not write them.

26 O then, if I have seen so great things, if the Lord in his condescension unto the children of men hath ^avisited men in so much ^bmercy, ^cwhy should my ^dheart weep and my soul linger in the valley of sorrow, and my flesh waste away, and my strength slacken, because of mine afflictions?

27 And why should I ^ayield to sin, because of my flesh? Yea, why should I give way to ^btemptations, that the evil one have place in my heart to destroy my ^cpeace and afflict my soul? Why am I ^dangry because of mine enemy?

28 Awake, my soul! No longer ^adroop in sin. Rejoice, O my heart, and give place no more for the ^benemy of my soul.

29 Do not ^aanger again because of mine enemies. Do not slacken my strength because of mine afflictions.

30 Rejoice, O my ^aheart, and cry unto the Lord, and say: O Lord, I will praise thee forever; yea, my soul will rejoice in thee, my God, and the ^brock of my salvation.

31 O Lord, wilt thou ^aredeem my soul? Wilt thou deliver me out of the hands of mine enemies? Wilt thou make me that I may shake at the appearance of ^bsin?

32 May the gates of hell be shut continually before me, because that my ^aheart is broken and my spirit is contrite! O Lord, wilt thou not shut the gates of thy righteousness before me, that I may ^bwalk in the path of the low valley, that I may be strict in the plain road!

33 O Lord, wilt thou encircle me around in the robe of thy ^arighteousness! O Lord, wilt thou make a way for mine escape before mine ^benemies! Wilt thou make my path straight before me! Wilt thou not place a stumbling block in my way—but that thou wouldst clear my way before me, and hedge not up my way, but the ways of mine enemy.

34 O Lord, I have ^atrusted in thee, and I will ^btrust in thee forever. I will not put my ^ctrust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his ^dtrust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.

35 Yea, I know that God will give ^aliberally to him that asketh. Yea, my God will give me, if I ^bask ^cnot amiss; therefore I will lift up my voice unto thee; yea, I will cry unto thee, my God, the ^drock of my ^erighteousness. Behold, my voice shall forever ascend up unto thee, my rock and mine everlasting God. Amen?

[Teancum]

What is really sad is when people build their life around any religion that more likely than not is not the truth. And then when their children or others do not follow some so called chosen path they are sad, discouraged, depressed, feel like a failure and on and on. So much better to live a life without certainty, teach children to critically think and explore and encourage them to find their own path and love them all the same.  I am pretty certain the Mormon world view and view of the after life has not more substance that that of the Catholics, Protestants or Islam.  So live life, search, think and by happy. If I could raise my kids agoian I would not shove the Mormon gospel down their throats.

[Teancum]

12 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Lehi’s family was utterly torn apart when some of his children rejected Jesus Christ and his gospel. What follows are Nephi’s thoughts on the matter at the time when the family split became irrevocable. His is a message of sadness mingled with great faith and hope. What else should it be?

15 And upon ^athese I ^bwrite the things of my soul, and many of the scriptures which are engraven upon the plates of brass. For my soul ^cdelighteth in the scriptures, and my heart ^dpondereth them, and writeth them for the ^elearning and the profit of my children.

16 Behold, my ^asoul delighteth in the things of the Lord; and my ^bheart pondereth continually upon the things which I have seen and heard.

17 Nevertheless, notwithstanding the great ^agoodness of the Lord, in showing me his great and marvelous works, my heart exclaimeth: O ^bwretched man that I am! Yea, my heart ^csorroweth because of my flesh; my soul grieveth because of mine iniquities.

18 I am encompassed about, because of the temptations and the sins which do so easily ^abeset me.

19 And when I desire to rejoice, my heart groaneth because of my sins; nevertheless, I know in whom I have ^atrusted.

20 My God hath been my ^asupport; he hath led me through mine ^bafflictions in the wilderness; and he hath preserved me upon the waters of the great deep.

21 He hath filled me with his love, even unto the consuming  my flesh.

22 He hath confounded mine ^aenemies, unto the causing of them to quake before me.

23 Behold, he hath heard my cry by day, and he hath given me ^aknowledge by ^bvisions in the night-time.

24 And by day have I waxed bold in mighty ^aprayer before him; yea, my voice have I sent up on high; and angels came down and ministered unto me.

25 And upon the wings of his Spirit hath my body been ^acarried away upon exceedingly high mountains. And mine eyes have beheld great things, yea, even too great for man; therefore I was bidden that I should not write them.

26 O then, if I have seen so great things, if the Lord in his condescension unto the children of men hath ^avisited men in so much ^bmercy, ^cwhy should my ^dheart weep and my soul linger in the valley of sorrow, and my flesh waste away, and my strength slacken, because of mine afflictions?

27 And why should I ^ayield to sin, because of my flesh? Yea, why should I give way to ^btemptations, that the evil one have place in my heart to destroy my ^cpeace and afflict my soul? Why am I ^dangry because of mine enemy?

28 Awake, my soul! No longer ^adroop in sin. Rejoice, O my heart, and give place no more for the ^benemy of my soul.

29 Do not ^aanger again because of mine enemies. Do not slacken my strength because of mine afflictions.

30 Rejoice, O my ^aheart, and cry unto the Lord, and say: O Lord, I will praise thee forever; yea, my soul will rejoice in thee, my God, and the ^brock of my salvation.

31 O Lord, wilt thou ^aredeem my soul? Wilt thou deliver me out of the hands of mine enemies? Wilt thou make me that I may shake at the appearance of ^bsin?

32 May the gates of hell be shut continually before me, because that my ^aheart is broken and my spirit is contrite! O Lord, wilt thou not shut the gates of thy righteousness before me, that I may ^bwalk in the path of the low valley, that I may be strict in the plain road!

33 O Lord, wilt thou encircle me around in the robe of thy ^arighteousness! O Lord, wilt thou make a way for mine escape before mine ^benemies! Wilt thou make my path straight before me! Wilt thou not place a stumbling block in my way—but that thou wouldst clear my way before me, and hedge not up my way, but the ways of mine enemy.

34 O Lord, I have ^atrusted in thee, and I will ^btrust in thee forever. I will not put my ^ctrust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his ^dtrust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.

35 Yea, I know that God will give ^aliberally to him that asketh. Yea, my God will give me, if I ^bask ^cnot amiss; therefore I will lift up my voice unto thee; yea, I will cry unto thee, my God, the ^drock of my ^erighteousness. Behold, my voice shall forever ascend up unto thee, my rock and mine everlasting God. Amen?

Good lord. You really do gave an overly pious stick shoved up your butt.  What a sad way to live.

[Rain]

20 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Lehi’s family was utterly torn apart when some of his children rejected Jesus Christ and his gospel. What follows are Nephi’s thoughts on the matter at the time when the family split became irrevocable. His is a message of sadness mingled with great faith and hope. What else should it be?

15 And upon ^athese I ^bwrite the things of my soul, and many of the scriptures which are engraven upon the plates of brass. For my soul ^cdelighteth in the scriptures, and my heart ^dpondereth them, and writeth them for the ^elearning and the profit of my children.

16 Behold, my ^asoul delighteth in the things of the Lord; and my ^bheart pondereth continually upon the things which I have seen and heard.

17 Nevertheless, notwithstanding the great ^agoodness of the Lord, in showing me his great and marvelous works, my heart exclaimeth: O ^bwretched man that I am! Yea, my heart ^csorroweth because of my flesh; my soul grieveth because of mine iniquities.

18 I am encompassed about, because of the temptations and the sins which do so easily ^abeset me.

19 And when I desire to rejoice, my heart groaneth because of my sins; nevertheless, I know in whom I have ^atrusted.

20 My God hath been my ^asupport; he hath led me through mine ^bafflictions in the wilderness; and he hath preserved me upon the waters of the great deep.

21 He hath filled me with his love, even unto the consuming  my flesh.

22 He hath confounded mine ^aenemies, unto the causing of them to quake before me.

23 Behold, he hath heard my cry by day, and he hath given me ^aknowledge by ^bvisions in the night-time.

24 And by day have I waxed bold in mighty ^aprayer before him; yea, my voice have I sent up on high; and angels came down and ministered unto me.

25 And upon the wings of his Spirit hath my body been ^acarried away upon exceedingly high mountains. And mine eyes have beheld great things, yea, even too great for man; therefore I was bidden that I should not write them.

26 O then, if I have seen so great things, if the Lord in his condescension unto the children of men hath ^avisited men in so much ^bmercy, ^cwhy should my ^dheart weep and my soul linger in the valley of sorrow, and my flesh waste away, and my strength slacken, because of mine afflictions?

27 And why should I ^ayield to sin, because of my flesh? Yea, why should I give way to ^btemptations, that the evil one have place in my heart to destroy my ^cpeace and afflict my soul? Why am I ^dangry because of mine enemy?

28 Awake, my soul! No longer ^adroop in sin. Rejoice, O my heart, and give place no more for the ^benemy of my soul.

29 Do not ^aanger again because of mine enemies. Do not slacken my strength because of mine afflictions.

30 Rejoice, O my ^aheart, and cry unto the Lord, and say: O Lord, I will praise thee forever; yea, my soul will rejoice in thee, my God, and the ^brock of my salvation.

31 O Lord, wilt thou ^aredeem my soul? Wilt thou deliver me out of the hands of mine enemies? Wilt thou make me that I may shake at the appearance of ^bsin?

32 May the gates of hell be shut continually before me, because that my ^aheart is broken and my spirit is contrite! O Lord, wilt thou not shut the gates of thy righteousness before me, that I may ^bwalk in the path of the low valley, that I may be strict in the plain road!

33 O Lord, wilt thou encircle me around in the robe of thy ^arighteousness! O Lord, wilt thou make a way for mine escape before mine ^benemies! Wilt thou make my path straight before me! Wilt thou not place a stumbling block in my way—but that thou wouldst clear my way before me, and hedge not up my way, but the ways of mine enemy.

34 O Lord, I have ^atrusted in thee, and I will ^btrust in thee forever. I will not put my ^ctrust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his ^dtrust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.

35 Yea, I know that God will give ^aliberally to him that asketh. Yea, my God will give me, if I ^bask ^cnot amiss; therefore I will lift up my voice unto thee; yea, I will cry unto thee, my God, the ^drock of my ^erighteousness. Behold, my voice shall forever ascend up unto thee, my rock and mine everlasting God. Amen?

I don't get why you would put this here in the context of this thread.  We are talking about our spiritual siblings and physical relatives and having a relationship with them and this puts them as our enemy.  Why would I ever want to be a part of that after having been sealed to many of them and grown to love even more of them?

[RAD DAD]

15 minutes ago, Balaam said:

wife and I feel sad that our son isn't more active in the Church because we believe he would be happier if he understood what Church is all about and dedicated his life to it 100%

Sad? Would you mind explaining why you are sad?

Some people aren't meant to be members of the church obviously. Some people are better off without being members of the church. Maybe your son enjoys freedom and doesn't enjoy the restrictions our church puts on members. 

20 minutes ago, Balaam said:

The true purpose of Church is to become like our Savior

I thought the true purpose of the church was to prepare the way for the second coming.

23 minutes ago, Balaam said:

Not as good as he could be but not as bad or evil as he could be

This makes me sad. So you think your son could be "better" if he was  an active member? 

 

25 minutes ago, Balaam said:

But still, we are sad when we think of the steps our son is not taking that we know would be good for him to take

What steps, steps towards an active church membership?

[Rain]

47 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Bridging off the post about the son leaving the church and the parents concern that it will damage the relationship without the commonality of the church… 

Obviously when families follow the program and all of the children are active and all of them go on missions and all of them marry in the temple, there is tremendous joy to be had. It’s a fabulous plan and the promise of the ultimate outcome is nirvana. 
 

The likelihood of this scenario in todays world is low.  The more children you have, I assume the more likely you are to experience a child refusing church life at some point.  (No cfr, just assumptions made from observations.). 
 

I have noticed that parents can get really sad, depressed, frightened, anxious, defensive etc.  As can siblings. Why is this? My opinion is that people fear that they have lost their children. Why do they feel they have lost their children? I assume it’s because they have been told their whole life that families can be together forever unless somebody screws up and then the dream is lost.   My friend disagrees and says she’s never heard of that, that instead God will fulfill his purposes for joy and we will all be fine.  That may be true, however, I disagree that that is what is taught at church. 
 

I think sadness for believing is a really hard sell. Isn’t there a way there can be more joy and more hope when children decide that the church is not for them? It’s my belief that our “beliefs about our beliefs” are what serve to alienate children and parents when children bow out. 
 

Incidentally, I heard a young man talk about how he recently left the Jehovah witness church and how he was excommunicated from his family as a result. Are we not similar? 

Yes.  I don't have any idea how they do it so I don't know if we are the same or not though.   We are encouraged to continue to love them and keep a relationship with them and not judge them and given the idea that we will have some connection with them, but if we are not all celestial beings then somehow some are cut off from the family.

[manol]

8 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Bridging off the post about the son leaving the church and the parents concern that it will damage the relationship without the commonality of the church… 

I have noticed that parents can get really sad, depressed, frightened, anxious, defensive etc.  As can siblings. Why is this? My opinion is that people fear that they have lost their children. Why do they feel they have lost their children? I assume it’s because they have been told their whole life that families can be together forever unless somebody screws up and then the dream is lost.

Agreed.

To my mind, heaven + eternal separation from those you love = a hell.  For us and arguably even moreso for God.  Apparently Joseph Smith came to a similar conclusion, as he said that we without our dead cannot be saved, nor they without us. 

8 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I think sadness for believing is a really hard sell. Isn’t there a way there can be more joy and more hope when children decide that the church is not for them?

Imo the fear-infused paradigm that teaches heaven (salvation, exaltation, whatever) = separation has only limited usefulness and is not the highest truth on the subject.  Just as parents use fear and coercion on young children ("stay out of the street or get your butt smacked"), so too imo God uses fearful language for effect on the spritually immature, which historically has been the vast majority.  See D&C 19:6-12. 

Fear is the beginning of wisdom, but it is ONLY the beginning!  Imo perfect love is the truth that wisdom eventually leads us to, and perfect love casts out fear.  Including all fear of separation.

What I am saying is, a paradigm shift to a much higher (and more loving) truth than what the Sunday School manual teaches is the solution.  In my opinion. 

I do not feel qualified to go into the specifics of what this paradigm shift might entail for anyone other than myself, but I do feel qualified to say this:  SEEK and ye shall FIND! 

Edited January 12, 2023 by manol

[CV75]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

Bridging off the post about the son leaving the church and the parents concern that it will damage the relationship without the commonality of the church… 

Obviously when families follow the program and all of the children are active and all of them go on missions and all of them marry in the temple, there is tremendous joy to be had. It’s a fabulous plan and the promise of the ultimate outcome is nirvana. 
 

The likelihood of this scenario in todays world is low.  The more children you have, I assume the more likely you are to experience a child refusing church life at some point.  (No cfr, just assumptions made from observations.). 
 

I have noticed that parents can get really sad, depressed, frightened, anxious, defensive etc.  As can siblings. Why is this? My opinion is that people fear that they have lost their children. Why do they feel they have lost their children? I assume it’s because they have been told their whole life that families can be together forever unless somebody screws up and then the dream is lost.   My friend disagrees and says she’s never heard of that, that instead God will fulfill his purposes for joy and we will all be fine.  That may be true, however, I disagree that that is what is taught at church. 
 

I think sadness for believing is a really hard sell. Isn’t there a way there can be more joy and more hope when children decide that the church is not for them? It’s my belief that our “beliefs about our beliefs” are what serve to alienate children and parents when children bow out. 
 

Incidentally, I heard a young man talk about how he recently left the Jehovah witness church and how he was excommunicated from his family as a result. Are we not similar? 

Everyone is ultimately responsible for their own sadness, depression, fright, anxiety, defensiveness, etc. This of course excludes psychiatric/psychological conditions they cannot control. There is a loss when someone you love no longer shares the same testimony, spiritual identity or connection. There are many other wonderful aspects to family relationships, but a loss is a loss, however differently people may feel about it.

When children decide the Church is not for them, there can be more joy and hope for the remaining family members when the remain steadfast and further rely on Christ. That is where the focus is, even when everyone shares the same testimony, spiritual identity or connection. There are many other wonderful aspects to family relationships that a grounding in Christ can enrich, even if only one person is so blessed.

[Eschaton]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

Incidentally, I heard a young man talk about how he recently left the Jehovah witness church and how he was excommunicated from his family as a result. Are we not similar? 

There can be a culture of that in the LDS church, really depending on what kind of home and what kind of Mormonism you were raised in. Very much much YMMV. I believe shunning in the Jehovah's Witness tradition is more of a fixed point of doctrine. 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

Bridging off the post about the son leaving the church and the parents concern that it will damage the relationship without the commonality of the church… 

Obviously when families follow the program and all of the children are active and all of them go on missions and all of them marry in the temple, there is tremendous joy to be had. It’s a fabulous plan and the promise of the ultimate outcome is nirvana. 
 

The likelihood of this scenario in todays world is low.  The more children you have, I assume the more likely you are to experience a child refusing church life at some point.  (No cfr, just assumptions made from observations.). 
 

I have noticed that parents can get really sad, depressed, frightened, anxious, defensive etc.  As can siblings. Why is this? My opinion is that people fear that they have lost their children. Why do they feel they have lost their children? I assume it’s because they have been told their whole life that families can be together forever unless somebody screws up and then the dream is lost.   My friend disagrees and says she’s never heard of that, that instead God will fulfill his purposes for joy and we will all be fine.  That may be true, however, I disagree that that is what is taught at church. 
 

I think sadness for believing is a really hard sell. Isn’t there a way there can be more joy and more hope when children decide that the church is not for them? It’s my belief that our “beliefs about our beliefs” are what serve to alienate children and parents when children bow out. 
 

Incidentally, I heard a young man talk about how he recently left the Jehovah witness church and how he was excommunicated from his family as a result. Are we not similar? 

Could it sometimes (not all the time) be similar to the sadness and loss we feel when a loved one dies?

Even when we have a firm belief that a loved one continues to exist, and even if we also firmly believe that they are in a better place and are free from pain or other hurts they were dealing with in this life, we still feel sadness and loss when they are gone.   Similarly, even if we believe that someone is going to be ok when they leave the church, it still makes sense to mourn that (at least for a time).

Loss is hard, even if we don't believe it's negative for them it can still be a huge negative for us.  

There are costs that we pay to love someone, and sadness is one.  I think there are costs that we pay for having something mean so much to us too (like the gospel) and so sadness will be a price there as well sometimes.  I don't know that that makes it a hard sell.  I guess it would depend on whether or not we felt the benefit was worth the cost.  

I do think there must be a way to not have the sadness dominate us though, or to move beyond it.  I think about God and how His sadness at the choices of His children does not limit His ability to feel joy or happiness for them either.  Neither does it impact His ability to love them.  God is not as happy as His saddest child (to bring up that popular phrase).  His level of joy does not seem to be determined by our choices. 

I think there must be a way for us to do that too--still have joy and hope regardless of the choices that our children make.  Easier said than done though, for sure.

[bluebell]

19 minutes ago, Eschaton said:

There can be a culture of that in the LDS church, really depending on what kind of home and what kind of Mormonism you were raised in. Very much much YMMV. I believe shunning in the Jehovah's Witness tradition is more of a fixed point of doctrine. 

Yes, they practice shunning people who leave as an aspect of their religion.  In that way it is very different from us.

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Good lord. You really do gave an overly pious stick shoved up your butt.  What a sad way to live.

Well he is reading LDS scripture.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Yes, they practice shunning people who leave as an aspect of their religion.  In that way it is very different from us.

But some shun w/o realizing too. Maybe they don't want it to rub off on themselves. Like my sister has with me. Also, parents may want to shun as a form of tough love.

Edited January 11, 2023 by Tacenda

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

But some shun w/o realizing too. Maybe they don't want to rub off on themselves in a round about way.

Some probably do yes, but not because our doctrine teaches they must. That’s the difference I’m referring to.

Edit to add: the official JW doctrine is that shunning is the same as being disfellowshipped and is only practiced when “a baptized Witness makes a practice of breaking the Bible’s moral code and does not repent.”

Always important to let others speak for themselves. 

Edited January 11, 2023 by bluebell

[Tacenda]

Just now, bluebell said:

Some probably do yes, but not because our doctrine teaches they must. That’s the difference I’m referring to. 

I had to edit, glad you read between my lines, haha.

[MustardSeed]

Because I feel this is ALL cultural, I am wondering what we can do about it.  
 

I’m aware JW have doctrine on shunning.  It’s my experience that we can shun in our own ways due to culture- our fears, our insecurities, our misinformation.  I believe it’s such a waste, of angst and lost relationships. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

11 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

My friend disagrees and says she’s never heard of that, that instead God will fulfill his purposes for joy and we will all be fine.  That may be true, however, I disagree that that is what is taught at church.

That's what I've always been taught at church: I unreservedly expect a 'fullness of joy' and nothing less. That's the promise. If God can experience that despite all His losses, why should we worry?

I'm sorry that some people don't currently want to be with me in the Celestial Kingdom. I believe many of them will change their minds. God is the master of the long game. And for the rest? Their loss. 

Mercifully, we get to experience this in the here and now: there is indescribable joy in gospel living despite the fact that not everyone agrees with or joins us. And in doing so, we have increased capacity for love, patience, and kindness.

Edited January 12, 2023 by Hamba Tuhan

[LoudmouthMormon]

7 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Incidentally, I heard a young man talk about how he recently left the Jehovah witness church and how he was excommunicated from his family as a result. Are we not similar? 

No, we are not similar. 

Evidence: The Jehovah's Witnesses website contains an article defending shunning, clarifying what it means, and when they will do it: https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/shunning/

Quote

We do not automatically disfellowship someone who commits a serious sin. If, however, a baptized Witness makes a practice of breaking the Bible’s moral code and does not repent, he or she will be shunned or disfellowshipped. The Bible clearly states: “Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.”—1 Corinthians 5:13.

 

I challenge anyone to find anything even remotely similar on our website.  What you'll find instead, is umpteen talks and lessons on how to love people who have left the fold, how we should keep wayward children as close to us as they'll let us, how we need to ooze love from every pore when dealing with the apostate and folks choosing lifestyles in opposition to the Lord's plan of happiness.

Are we not similar? No, when people follow the teachings of our church, we are not similar.

Are there mormon families who kick out and shun people who don't toe the religious line?  Sure.  They're not following church teachings, but yeah, they exist.  It happens in families with serious religious or political beliefs.  It's not an LDS only thing.

Edited January 12, 2023 by LoudmouthMormon

[Mark Beesley]

I believe it was Joseph Fielding Smith who taught  that faithful parents will able to lift their wayward children up to them in the celestial kingdom. Course the rebellious kids have to spend some serious time getting ready for that evolution, but it gives a lot of people hope. I’m not gonna go into the reference. I’m sure someone else will look it up. We do not have the sealing power for naught.

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, Mark Beesley said:

I believe it was Joseph Fielding Smith who taught  that faithful parents will able to lift their wayward children up to them in the celestial kingdom. Course the rebellious kids have to spend some serious time getting ready for that evolution, but it gives a lot of people hope. I’m not gonna go into the reference. I’m sure someone else will look it up. We do not have the sealing power for naught.

Well God still hasn’t been able to do that for the third. 
 

I don’t see my children as rebellious.  They are good people.  They just don’t believe what our church teaches.  I could never want them to ascribe to something that feels wrong or bad- that’s not what I taught them to do.  Yet sometimes I feel rebellious myself for seeing them so differently than it seems so many others of my religion see them. You’ll never hear me say the word “wayward” regarding them.  Nor “lost”.   

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

But some shun w/o realizing too. Maybe they don't want it to rub off on themselves. Like my sister has with me. Also, parents may want to shun as a form of tough love.

I have a lesbian friend who was basically shunned by her LDS family to encourage her to return. Sadly said family didn’t realize how toxic they were and after the initial shock and withdrawal she really has no desire to come back to their expectations and passive aggressive attempts to manipulate her into doing things. Her mom meanwhile is expecting her to come back crying any day now…..yep……..any day now.

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, Mark Beesley said:

I believe it was Joseph Fielding Smith who taught  that faithful parents will able to lift their wayward children up to them in the celestial kingdom. Course the rebellious kids have to spend some serious time getting ready for that evolution, but it gives a lot of people hope. I’m not gonna go into the reference. I’m sure someone else will look it up. We do not have the sealing power for naught.

 

23 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Well God still hasn’t been able to do that for the third ... 

I'm not sure that's an apt comparison. We know, at least, that even the most wayward of mortals kept their First Estate, whereas the rebellious third part of Heavenly Father's spirit children didn't even do that.  While God cannot and will not override His children's agency in order to exalt them, He's very persuasive, and, if necessary, He'll have an eternity to persuade those who might need it.

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Bridging off the post about the son leaving the church and the parents concern that it will damage the relationship without the commonality of the church… 

Obviously when families follow the program and all of the children are active and all of them go on missions and all of them marry in the temple, there is tremendous joy to be had. It’s a fabulous plan and the promise of the ultimate outcome is nirvana. 
 

The likelihood of this scenario in todays world is low.  The more children you have, I assume the more likely you are to experience a child refusing church life at some point.  (No cfr, just assumptions made from observations.). 
 

I have noticed that parents can get really sad, depressed, frightened, anxious, defensive etc.  As can siblings. Why is this? My opinion is that people fear that they have lost their children. Why do they feel they have lost their children? I assume it’s because they have been told their whole life that families can be together forever unless somebody screws up and then the dream is lost.   My friend disagrees and says she’s never heard of that, that instead God will fulfill his purposes for joy and we will all be fine.  That may be true, however, I disagree that that is what is taught at church. 
 

I think sadness for believing is a really hard sell. Isn’t there a way there can be more joy and more hope when children decide that the church is not for them? It’s my belief that our “beliefs about our beliefs” are what serve to alienate children and parents when children bow out. 
 

Incidentally, I heard a young man talk about how he recently left the Jehovah witness church and how he was excommunicated from his family as a result. Are we not similar? 

Not in my experience. It’s often the ones who leave that avoid or ostracize the rest, at least for a while, especially if they engage in behaviors that are harmful. Nevertheless, parents of wayward children will go through the stages of grief.

And there is this…

Quote

Joseph Smith
“The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and he never taught a more comforting doctrine—that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father’s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God” (Orson F. Whitney, in Conference Report, Apr. 1929, 110).
Brigham Young
“Let the father and mother, who are members of this Church and Kingdom, take a righteous course, and strive with all their might never to do a wrong, but to do good all their lives; if they have one child or one hundred children, if they conduct themselves towards them as they should, binding them to the Lord by their faith and prayers, I care not where those children go, they are bound up to their parents by an everlasting tie, and no power of earth or hell can separate them from their parents in eternity; they will return again to the fountain from whence they sprang” (quoted in Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–56], 2:90–91).
Lorenzo Snow
“If you succeed in passing through these trials and afflictions and receive a resurrection, you will, by the power of the Priesthood, work and labor, as the Son of God has, until you get all your sons and daughters in the path of exaltation and glory. This is just as sure as that the sun rose this morning over yonder mountains. Therefore, mourn not because all your sons and daughters do not follow in the path that you have marked out to them, or give heed to your counsels. Inasmuch as we succeed in securing eternal glory, and stand as saviors, and as kings and priests to our God, we will save our posterity” (in Collected Discourses, comp. Brian H. Stuy, 5 vols. [1987–92], 3:364).
Boyd K. Packer
“The measure of our success as parents ... will not rest solely on how our children turn out. That judgment would be just only if we could raise our families in a perfectly moral environment, and that now is not possible.
“It is not uncommon for responsible parents to lose one of their children, for a time, to influences over which they have no control. They agonize over rebellious sons or daughters. They are puzzled over why they are so helpless when they have tried so hard to do what they should.
“It is my conviction that those wicked influences one day will be overruled. ...
“We cannot overemphasize the value of temple marriage, the binding ties of the sealing ordinance, and the standards of worthiness required of them. When parents keep the covenants they have made at the altar of the temple, their children will be forever bound to them” (“Our Moral Environment,” Ensign, May 1992, 68).
President Joseph F. Smith
“Fathers, if you wish your children to be taught in the principles of the gospel, ... if you wish them to be obedient to and united with you, love them! and prove to them that you do love them by your every word or act to them. For your own sake, for the love that should exist between you and your boys—however
wayward they might be, ... when you speak or talk to them, do it not in anger; do it not harshly, in a condemning spirit. Speak to them kindly; get down and weep with them, if necessary, and get them to shed tears with you if possible. Soften their hearts; get them to feel tenderly towards you. Use no lash and no violence, but ... approach them with reason, with persuasion and love unfeigned. With this means, if you cannot gain your boys and your girls, ... there will be no means left in the world by which you can win them to yourselves.” (Liahona, The Elders’ Journal, 17 Oct. 1911, pp. 260–61.)

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, bluebell said:

There are costs that we pay to love someone, and sadness is one.  I think there are costs that we pay for having something mean so much to us too (like the gospel) and so sadness will be a price there as well sometimes.  I don't know that that makes it a hard sell.  I guess it would depend on whether or not we felt the benefit was worth the cost.  

I do think there must be a way to not have the sadness dominate us though, or to move beyond it.  I think about God and how His sadness at the choices of His children does not limit His ability to feel joy or happiness for them either.  Neither does it impact His ability to love them.  God is not as happy as His saddest child (to bring up that popular phrase).  His level of joy does not seem to be determined by our choices. 

Enoch witnessed God weeping over the sins of “the workmanship of mine own hands.” He had given them knowledge and agency, and they misused both. …”and also [I gave them] commandment, that they should love one another, and that they should choose me, their Father; but behold, they are without affection, and they hate their own blood…

“But behold, their sins shall be upon the heads of their fathers; Satan shall be their father, and misery shall be their doom; and the whole heavens shall weep over them, even all the workmanship of mine hands; wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer?

”And that which I have chosen hath pled before my face. Wherefore, he suffereth for their sins; inasmuch as they will repent in the day that my Chosen shall return unto me, and until that day they shall be in torment; Wherefore, for this shall the heavens weep, yea, and all the workmanship of mine hands.”

Perhaps having a child leave the Church is an experience to help us prepare for future Godhood? It taught me things I could have not learned any other way.

Edited January 12, 2023 by Bernard Gui